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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 20:03

qwerty wrote:Personally, I am skeptical that 2 teams would work in Brazil. This is an extremely new concept, and rugby is mostly concentrated in Sao Paulo (5 out of 8 top teams are from there). I think they should start off with just one team, just like Chile and Uruguay.

If things work out maybe they could add an expansion team in Curitiba, maybe Porto Alegre or Bento Goncalves. That's the other problem, there is not other big "hotspot" of rugby in the country, but several smaller ones.


The teams don't necessarily have to be created in rugby hotspots - it obviously gives a great advantage for many reasons but if done correctly can succeed in non-rugby areas. If the team does a good job with marketing and engaging the community then it could get a good amount of new fans interested in seeing what this thing is. Depending on the city, there could be a missing element that the community will rally behind. Maybe they've always been terrible at soccer/football but the introduction of a rugby team, especially if it's a successful one, with gain some attention.

The same can be said for the US. MLR doesn't have a northern California team and this is traditionally THE hotbed of rugby in the US. People kept complaining about there not being a team because of the history and culture of the clubs. Places like Houston, which are not traditionally rugby cities, have really taken a liking to rugby in part due to the great community based efforts of the team.

At the end of the day though I don't necessarily disagree with you. It may be wiser to start off with 1 team in a rugby centric area just because the creation of a rugby union competition in Brazil is already a great risk. Might as well focus all attention to one team and get the whole country behind it then expand.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby qwerty » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 20:16

Estádio do Ibirapuera looks like the perfect venue for Brazilian rugby. Why on earth are they using Pacaembú?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 22:09

qwerty wrote:Estádio do Ibirapuera looks like the perfect venue for Brazilian rugby. Why on earth are they using Pacaembú?


Pacaembu is much bigger but Estadio do Ibirapuera has a huge track around it - you can't see anything if you're behind the goalposts.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 23:29

Ibirapuera is risked to be demolished now by the State Government... it has a horrible field because of athletics and with a poor structure. It needs works and the State Government doesn't want to put money there. They want to sell the area to build a Mall.

Pacaembu in the other hand is the historical stadium, a landmark of the city (that can't be demolished by law) and it is empty of professional soccer since Corinthians moved. Much better structure.

Pacaembu is much bigger but Estadio do Ibirapuera has a huge track around it - you can't see anything if you're behind the goalposts.


BTW, I have played rugby there a couple of times (local clubs used it until 2010 in some competitions, we could rent it to have like 5 matches in a row). We needed to put the in-goal IN FRONT of the posts to make it safer. I confess I lost a try because I coudn't see the in-goal line (it was at night with poor light!) :lol: Lately CBRu used it and placed the in-goals properly, but it became a small field.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby qwerty » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 23:42

And Nicolau Alayon? Parque Sao Jorge? They all seem more appropriate.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 23:52

Parque São Jorge belongs to Corinthians and they basically used it for their youth teams... they never rent. I don't know CBRu has approached them but the strucutre for people to attend is very poor, as they don't use it anymore as a stadium. It is a relic. But they would never sell as it is in the middle of their social club.

CBRu used Nicolau Alayon several times. We played Paraguay there, Misiones and twice Super 8 finals. But again, it has poor structure as Nacional (the club that owns the stadium) is a minor club. The current problem is their floodlights. I love Alayon. It is has great location (10-15 minutes walk from by home :lol: ) and the perfect size. If I were CBRu I would try a long-term partnership with Nacional to make renovations there and use it once a week. But Nacional earns money renting it for amateur football.... so rugby should prove


Before you ask, there are other 2 small size stadiums. Javari, that belongs to Juventus (too dangerous for rugby, it is very small and there are fences close to the field) and Canindé (Portuguesa's stadium) where CBRu hosted a couple of matches too. It could be perfect too, but Portuguesa is almost bankrupt and it is also in a very bad condition...

As CBRu has big sponsors, they want a nice-looking venue. Basically this.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby qwerty » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 00:18

I see they don't have much to choose from. Hopefully some day there will be a rugby-specific stadium, like in Montevideo.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 00:28

Location is key to have public. São Paulo is a huge city with traffic issues. That was the problem with Arena Barueri. Great stadium, cheap but in the outskirts...
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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 02:34

victorsra wrote:
In addition to Sao Paulo state, where do you think the second team will play? Florianópolis, Porto Alegre, Bento Gonçalves, Curitiba?

I heard Curitiba.

From a business perspective, I think that the best option is Florianópolis.
No big football teams, and lots of Argentine tourists.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Higgik » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 08:14

Start the league with 6 teams, 3 Argentina, 2 Brazil, 1 Uruguay

This would get a good balance between where the players are and the economic strength of Brazil.

5 of the teams venues are obvious, BA, Córdoba, Rosario, São Paulo, Montevideo, but the 2nd Brazil team needs to be carefully thought out with consideration to geography, economic viability and player quality.

I am very excited about the prospect for South America, (from a European perspective) as it will create a player pathway to the professional ranks for many more players.

I can see it eventually being the start of a full American rugby tournament, developing into a league.

Jaguares would leave SR, eventually leagues will be set up on time zones rather than hemispheres.

International tournaments will be played in these zones, 4-yr, to complement the RWC.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Thomas » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 09:43

I am pasting here from the Roar Website : http://www.theroar.com.au/2018/03/09/co ... ine-rugby/

Enrique Topo Rodriguez view on Professionalism in Argentina as a reply to an article and a recent Hugo Porta's interview:

THE GRAND DILEMMA OF RUGBY: AMATEURISM OR PROFESSIONALISSM
From The Macquarie Dictionary: Amateur Sportsmen are those that play for pleasure (also generally speaking is the person that engages in sport on a non-paid basis). Further, a professional does it for a monetary reward.
Yet, those definitions do not cover ‘attitude and dedication’? – I played rugby for 22 years, during that time I never received a $0.01 (and so be it, me no crying here). Nevertheless, I was always very professionally dedicated to excellence. Anyone can follow and embrace this philosophy!
The No 1 objective of amateur or professional rugby is: TO WIN, by 1 point, 10 or 100.
Professional rugby started in 1995 when Rupert Murdoch bought the rights to Southern Hemisphere rugby for 10 years ($850M) for Super 12 and Tri-Nations. The IRB agreed to it and declared: “Rugby is no longer amateur” (you draw your own conclusions)
Since the IRB declaration the areas of growth have been: players, coaches, referees, and ancillary staff, Officialdom (Administration), Broadcasters (TV), Media, and Sponsors
THEREFORE THE MAIN ‘UNDENIABLE’ FORCES THAT HAVE ‘INFLUENCED AND PUSHED’ THE ADVENT OF PROFESSIONAL ‘ELITE RUGBY’ SINCE 1995 ARE:
a) Broadcasters (TV)
b) Media
c) Sponsors
d) Rugby Officialdom $$$ (Administration)
GENERAL COMMENTS:
• To negate the presence and influence of the above four sectors equates to ‘blind Freddie’s public ignorance. E.g. there are some things I don’t like in life. However, ignoring them or dismissing them doesn’t help me or will it improve the final outcome either.
• Schools, Clubs & Community in my modest opinion (coinciding 50% with Porta) they must remain amateur. I think it should be a well-controlled structure which may only cover incidental expenses of players, coaches and referees.
• SUGGESTION: Representative players: Their earnings for training and playing should be all equal in accordance with the time spent on the field (socialist rugby) and other parameters such as efficiency, punctuality, etc. Any player that is yellow or red carded must return the monies received during the ‘non-playing time’.
• Players’ Endorsements and advertisements, players should be entitled to 100% of it
• The teaching of children and adolescents is a MUST and I believe is well organised around the world, some countries more than others.
• The monies generated by the Professional Elite Rugby should be shared and rationalised with the other sectors of the rugby family.
• I think Hugo Porta gave his opinion and made his choice. Amateurism worked for him because rugby allowed him to multiply his earnings (according to him 3 times) in his business career. Also, he had the honour and fortune to become an Argentine Ambassador to South Africa and Secretary of Sports in Argentina. Porta also travelled extensively around the world playing for many World XV Selections and well awarded several well deserved distinctions. I assume he didn’t need to be paid by rugby because he was well off. I conclude that ‘the idea’ of Amateurism for All, would have been practical and applicable before 1995 and not for 2018.
• Moving on – Rugby has in the last 23 years generated a few ‘teething problems’ that we have overcome, has had its ups and downs, Yet, on the other hand, it has generated JOBS for a lot of people and players, it has attracted players and spectators probably tenfold. We know very well the size of the 1st very timid RWC in 1987 (I played in it) and the gigantic event that it was in 2015. Rugby at the top seems to be very well looked after.
• One thing I coincide with Porta and others is that the base of the pyramid needs and deserves more attention from the Rugby Family: World Rugby, Argentine and Australian Rugby Union, etc.
At the moment the resources ($$) generated do not filter down (sufficiently) through the non-representative levels. This is a very common complaint from rugby playing countries. This is plain ‘greediness’. It is ironic that one of the things rugby teaches us on the field is to respect our players, the opposition and referee, now also spectators. Also to ‘share and cooperate’ with our team!
Why not also doing it off the field?
Enrique TOPO Rodriguez

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 10:22

I think Topo doesn't mention the thing that hurt the most back in Argentina about all what Porta said to Spanish media (not the first time people from Argentina feel more prone to talk a bit too much in Spain, Agustín Pichot already announced here a few months ago that Pumas would welcome players from Europe again): he said Jaguares have no soul. And people seem to have understood this as an attack to the players, while to me he was referring to the fact that by playing for the Pumas or your club you were defending symbols who had a history, a fanbase, etc... Jaguares don't.

You can have a look at some of his words here (although the sentence "Jaguares have no soul" was said to other media):
https://www.revista22.es/2018/03/digan- ... ivertirse/

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 12:41

History always has to start somewhere. I’ve never understood the argument that just because something is new means it’s soulless. It takes time to develop an identity and a passionate base. Every famous sporting team on the planet was once as ‘soulless’ as Jarguares, from Manchester United, to Real Madrid, to the New York Yankees, to the Dallas Cowboys, to the LA Lakers, every one of them started life the same way, no traditions, no rivalries, no history, just a name, colours, and the player willing to play for them.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 14:20

From a business perspective, I think that the best option is Florianópolis.
No big football teams, and lots of Argentine tourists.


In fact Florianópolis has two football clubs that are yo-yo teams, up and down from the Brazilian top division, with their passionate fans: Avaí and Figueirense. Any professional rugby team would need to rent their stadiums, because there is simply no other stadium there. Local rugby club Desterro plays at the UFSC (Federal University of Santa Catarina) field. They have a partnership with the PE Faculty, but the field is not owned by them (and it is isolated... far from downtown). However I agree Florianópolis could be a good city for a professional team.

I believe Curitiba has a sponsor to host a franchise and Curitiba Rugby Clube has a rugby-only field very well located with a strong World Rugby Awards-winner social project in local municipal schools.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 18:21

thatrugbyguy wrote:Every famous sporting team on the planet was once as ‘soulless’ as Jarguares, from Manchester United, to Real Madrid, to the New York Yankees, to the Dallas Cowboys, to the LA Lakers, every one of them started life the same way, no traditions, no rivalries, no history, just a name, colours, and the player willing to play for them.

All the teams you mention started playing in their local leagues, against foes with similar backgrounds, existing rivalries between cities, etc. Super Rugby is gimmicky in comparison.

The Jaguares project is moribund. The team is in flux once again. Only 7.000 fans went to the game against Hurricanes in a weekend without URBA competitions. Hard to imagine more than 5.000 will turn up tomorrow.

Part of their identity crisis comes from being a national team losing against provincial sides. So I would sever the ties between Jaguares and Pumas. Let the European players back into the national team (the UAR will review that policy in their next council meeting). Then sell the franchise to a private entity. And bring in 7/8 foreign players from South Africa/Pacific Islands. They should also consider leaving Velez for a smaller venue.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 18:43

In response to Thomas (because the quote would be far too long):

Any professional league needs to work with the community, especially rugby given its amateur support. They need to offer training and youth programs to create more fans and players that all enjoy amateur club rugby. Major League Rugby in the US, so far, has done a good job of presenting this so far. However, they are a fully private organization and USAR has next to no power over them. In 10-15 years' time the attitudes could completely change after the prospect of earning money gets in the way.

This South American league seems to be more supported by World and Sudamerica Rugby. If this is the case, they can institute policies in place where the league must contribute in some sort of way to the amateur clubs. This could be coaching/player training, shared revenues or anything else suggested above. Top level amateur sports is really wonderful to engage in and watch so if you're able to continue to build that tradition then professional rugby could be a smash hit in these countries. The important thing is that these clubs are well funded and not scrambling each week to get money from the players just so they can afford the field.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Thomas » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 08:47

All very valid points, but I feel that UAR needs to step and decide how to go about it. on the one hand you have the romanticism of Amateur Rugby but on the other hand you want to compete at the top table but it come at a cost and they are not willing to pay it. a case in point is the HP Interview.

For him to play he learn how to defend himself is bollocks, back then he would get one of the forwards as his enforcer to sort things out. In regards to return of Amateurism it should never happen, Porta is talking through rose tinted glasses and Topo has a point in his comments, Hugo’s comments are about a sense of belonging. It’s an nostalgic plea from someone who misses the good bits of his past rugby career, but is in denial of the bad bits!.

Professionalism will work in Argentina provided the base (clubs and community) understands and accepts what it is all about, irrespective if its URBA or the provinces. once Professionalism is settled in Argentina will filter through the rest of South America.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 12:04

The thing about professionalism is that rugby is not like soccer, there are maybe 100 teams worldwide that are professional meaning there is only so many places a player can earn a living. Rugby is not the type of sport, and will probably never be the type of sport where players will only ever play for money, because the sport doesn't make the type of money other sports do.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Higgik » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 13:11

carbonero wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Every famous sporting team on the planet was once as ‘soulless’ as Jarguares, from Manchester United, to Real Madrid, to the New York Yankees, to the Dallas Cowboys, to the LA Lakers, every one of them started life the same way, no traditions, no rivalries, no history, just a name, colours, and the player willing to play for them.

All the teams you mention started playing in their local leagues, against foes with similar backgrounds, existing rivalries between cities, etc. Super Rugby is gimmicky in comparison.

The Jaguares project is moribund. The team is in flux once again. Only 7.000 fans went to the game against Hurricanes in a weekend without URBA competitions. Hard to imagine more than 5.000 will turn up tomorrow.

Part of their identity crisis comes from being a national team losing against provincial sides. So I would sever the ties between Jaguares and Pumas. Let the European players back into the national team (the UAR will review that policy in their next council meeting). Then sell the franchise to a private entity. And bring in 7/8 foreign players from South Africa/Pacific Islands. They should also consider leaving Velez for a smaller venue.

Agree, the whole of SR needs to open up to PI players and also allow any player from a RC nation play for any team. Even bring in top players from other Sth American nations into the SR franchises.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 14:16

victorsra wrote: I believe Curitiba has a sponsor to host a franchise and Curitiba Rugby Clube has a rugby-only field very well located with a strong World Rugby Awards-winner social project in local municipal schools.

That should help a lot.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 14:33

French Top 14 clubs have a salary cap of € 10 million per season, or an average € 250k per player.

This South American professional tournament could easily operate with US$ 1 million per team, or an average US$ 25k per player.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 21:47

NaBUru38 wrote:French Top 14 clubs have a salary cap of € 10 million per season, or an average € 250k per player.

This South American professional tournament could easily operate with US$ 1 million per team, or an average US$ 25k per player.


Where does the money come from though? I agree that you can make up a big difference relatively quickly because the salaries aren’t as high as soccer. But who is paying €1 million a year? Even MLR has a salary cap of $350,000 and is expected to lose money for years. I keep bringing up MLR but it is probably ge best parallel right now, since they’re both new leagues. I am certain though that you can South American players far less than Americans and have them live more comfortably. That’s a key benefit to keep in mind too.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 16:46

Tobar wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:French Top 14 clubs have a salary cap of € 10 million per season, or an average € 250k per player.

This South American professional tournament could easily operate with US$ 1 million per team, or an average US$ 25k per player.


Where does the money come from though? I agree that you can make up a big difference relatively quickly because the salaries aren’t as high as soccer. But who is paying €1 million a year? Even MLR has a salary cap of $350,000 and is expected to lose money for years. I keep bringing up MLR but it is probably ge best parallel right now, since they’re both new leagues. I am certain though that you can South American players far less than Americans and have them live more comfortably. That’s a key benefit to keep in mind too.


Don't expect drastic losses with MLR due to sponsorship and ad sales. However...that doesn't mean they're making money either.

It sounds like this league is going to be owned by the Unions, where the hell is that money coming from?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby iul » Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 16:53

From the unions budgets? IIRC the Brazilian union has a budget something like 7 million USD. There's room in there for a couple of professional sides.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 20:52

R$21m in 2017 = US$ 7m

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1219/ ... 6033346087

Part of this budget comes from public money (so, it can't be used for a franchise AFAIK). But Brazil has the Sports Incentive Law that is used by professional sports like basketball, volleyball and handball to mantain professional clubs (companies can destine a % of their taxes to a sports project). I guess the Brazilian Rugby Union will use a specific project for the franchises, which means it wouldn't come from the current budget. However, of course if a partner puts money in the franchises, they will probably cut money from other projects (to be seen...)
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