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South American rugby

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Re: South American rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 14 May 2018, 09:28

Professional teams may help with growth for Chile and Paraguay.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 14 May 2018, 09:40

thatrugbyguy wrote:Wouldn't both Uruguay teams likely be out of Montevideo? And surely Tucumán would be one of the possible Argentine teams? It is exciting though. WE'll finally have professional leagues in every continent. We really only need to have something established in Africa outside of Super rugby and Currie Cup.


They are going to be. They will be linked to the two biggest teams in the country both based in Montevideo.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 14 May 2018, 13:54

Blurandski wrote:
Gen Santa wrote:ive read that chilean rugby union is infamous for its infighting, incompetence and stagnation... as a result they have fallen behind despite a long history of the sport being played there... so they must have done a lot of housework to get a pro team


I've just had a quick look at WR/IRB year in reviews which have the player number maps, Chile has only gone from about 16,000 players to 20,000 players from 2007 to 2017, whereas Argentina's gone from near 80,000 to 145,000. Uruguay 4.5k to 37.5k, Colombia from 2,000 to 113,000 (I presume that the majority are Get into rugby sessions). Brazil from 3,000 to 185,000 (ditto?). Peru from 560 to 17,000. All across South America it's a story of pretty explosive growth, bar Chile and Paraguay (who were 2nd and 3rd= biggest on the continent to last, and 3rd last (bar Costa Rica)). Hopefully their longer rugby tradition will enable them to be competitive in the SA Pro league, which in turn should drive more interest.

A general rule is that from 2007 to 2017 most non-T1 unions across the world have grown somewhere between 8 to 15 times their original size in terms of total players, which underlines Paraguay's and Chile's stagnation.

Fake numbers. Brazil has only 18.000 registered players (but I doubt more than 12.000 are regular players). The number of 185.000 is ludicrous. They are counting kids that had fun with tag rugby somewhen.

I highly suggest to ignore that map. Zero criterea about the maths. Each countries invents a number that pleases.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:01

Gen Santa wrote:it seems in general the south america league needs to start off rather small... mexican and colombian teams are very exciting (especially the money in those nations) but they are barely getting established in international rugby... mexico hasn't even faced los yacares in their history! neither have they beaten colombia... and only recently has colombia looked competitive with the southern cone...

league format 2020:
buenos aires
rosario?
santiago
asuncion
montevideo
second uruguay team
sao paulo
rio de janeiro?

2025:
bogota/medellin/cucuta
cdmx/veracruz/campeche/guadalajara

and of course other south american cities may be viable... but this is all hypothesis...


No Rio. The 2nd Brazilian team will be in a Southern state. I heard Curiitba (Parana state) is a strong possibility although the 2nd most important state is Rio Grande do Sul (Porto Alegre, Bento Gonçalves...).
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:27

victorsra wrote:
Blurandski wrote:
Gen Santa wrote:ive read that chilean rugby union is infamous for its infighting, incompetence and stagnation... as a result they have fallen behind despite a long history of the sport being played there... so they must have done a lot of housework to get a pro team


I've just had a quick look at WR/IRB year in reviews which have the player number maps, Chile has only gone from about 16,000 players to 20,000 players from 2007 to 2017, whereas Argentina's gone from near 80,000 to 145,000. Uruguay 4.5k to 37.5k, Colombia from 2,000 to 113,000 (I presume that the majority are Get into rugby sessions). Brazil from 3,000 to 185,000 (ditto?). Peru from 560 to 17,000. All across South America it's a story of pretty explosive growth, bar Chile and Paraguay (who were 2nd and 3rd= biggest on the continent to last, and 3rd last (bar Costa Rica)). Hopefully their longer rugby tradition will enable them to be competitive in the SA Pro league, which in turn should drive more interest.

A general rule is that from 2007 to 2017 most non-T1 unions across the world have grown somewhere between 8 to 15 times their original size in terms of total players, which underlines Paraguay's and Chile's stagnation.

Fake numbers. Brazil has only 18.000 registered players (but I doubt more than 12.000 are regular players). The number of 185.000 is ludicrous. They are counting kids that had fun with tag rugby somewhen.

I highly suggest to ignore that map. Zero criterea about the maths. Each countries invents a number that pleases.

I wouldn't go as far as saying 'fake numbers'. But I'd strongly advise to only take into account left column numbers in the World Rugby map. 17,000 players sounds a lot more reasonable:
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:29

victorsra wrote:
Blurandski wrote:
Gen Santa wrote:ive read that chilean rugby union is infamous for its infighting, incompetence and stagnation... as a result they have fallen behind despite a long history of the sport being played there... so they must have done a lot of housework to get a pro team


I've just had a quick look at WR/IRB year in reviews which have the player number maps, Chile has only gone from about 16,000 players to 20,000 players from 2007 to 2017, whereas Argentina's gone from near 80,000 to 145,000. Uruguay 4.5k to 37.5k, Colombia from 2,000 to 113,000 (I presume that the majority are Get into rugby sessions). Brazil from 3,000 to 185,000 (ditto?). Peru from 560 to 17,000. All across South America it's a story of pretty explosive growth, bar Chile and Paraguay (who were 2nd and 3rd= biggest on the continent to last, and 3rd last (bar Costa Rica)). Hopefully their longer rugby tradition will enable them to be competitive in the SA Pro league, which in turn should drive more interest.

A general rule is that from 2007 to 2017 most non-T1 unions across the world have grown somewhere between 8 to 15 times their original size in terms of total players, which underlines Paraguay's and Chile's stagnation.

Fake numbers. Brazil has only 18.000 registered players (but I doubt more than 12.000 are regular players). The number of 185.000 is ludicrous. They are counting kids that had fun with tag rugby somewhen.

I highly suggest to ignore that map. Zero criterea about the maths. Each countries invents a number that pleases.


That 18,000 players tallies with the 17,000 registered players WR cites. The 185,000 comes from, as you said any kid that even player a game of tag or participated in a get into rugby session. The registered players number is useful to get an idea of where a union is currently, but the 'total players' for just how many people come into contact with rugby, which helps show just how active a union is with outreach programmes etc.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:55

Yes, but for exemple the Argentina's number is only registered players I believe. And of the 18.000 Brazilians in the registers, there is a big problem: inactive players are not measured properly. That's why I say that the REAL number is around 12.000.... maybe 13.000....

The should NOT count GIR program number together. Besides, af those 170.000 GIR kids, the majority don't have regular activity. There are many with regular activities, but the majority doesn't.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 14 May 2018, 17:42

Gen Santa wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:What’s a bit puzzling to me is Mexico. Mexico would be a more natural fit for MLR given its location. Why would the South American League want a team that far away?


culture, culture, culture

mexican teams used to compete in libertadores and copa america, not to mention culturally speaking mexico seems a bit more closer to south america than say, the us or canada less so... and of course the linguistic background is shared too...

in fact i don't think there's ever been a pan north america league in any sport... or i haven't done my research right... i do recall liga mx tried to expand into los angeles and san francisco in the 90s and this even had some support from the ussf but fifa prevented this from occurring... mlb tried moving the montreal expos into monterrey but this never occurred either... in fact i think mlb always wanted a team in mexico and still might...

anyway, with super rugby and pro14 existing, long distance travel in rugby is not exactly an odd thing


You're right, no Mexican-US league has successfully existed. There are friendly matches for soccer and we host NFL games down there but that's about it.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 14 May 2018, 17:46

victorsra wrote:
Blurandski wrote:
Gen Santa wrote:ive read that chilean rugby union is infamous for its infighting, incompetence and stagnation... as a result they have fallen behind despite a long history of the sport being played there... so they must have done a lot of housework to get a pro team


I've just had a quick look at WR/IRB year in reviews which have the player number maps, Chile has only gone from about 16,000 players to 20,000 players from 2007 to 2017, whereas Argentina's gone from near 80,000 to 145,000. Uruguay 4.5k to 37.5k, Colombia from 2,000 to 113,000 (I presume that the majority are Get into rugby sessions). Brazil from 3,000 to 185,000 (ditto?). Peru from 560 to 17,000. All across South America it's a story of pretty explosive growth, bar Chile and Paraguay (who were 2nd and 3rd= biggest on the continent to last, and 3rd last (bar Costa Rica)). Hopefully their longer rugby tradition will enable them to be competitive in the SA Pro league, which in turn should drive more interest.

A general rule is that from 2007 to 2017 most non-T1 unions across the world have grown somewhere between 8 to 15 times their original size in terms of total players, which underlines Paraguay's and Chile's stagnation.

Fake numbers. Brazil has only 18.000 registered players (but I doubt more than 12.000 are regular players). The number of 185.000 is ludicrous. They are counting kids that had fun with tag rugby somewhen.

I highly suggest to ignore that map. Zero criterea about the maths. Each countries invents a number that pleases.


Are you suggesting that this is fake news? Lol.

Colombia definitely doesn't have that many players - registered players are around 17,000-18,000. Same with Brazil, this must be including numbers for touch or tag rugby. Colombia has done a very good job with implementing Get Into Rugby and I think that number is entirely from GIR. Regardless, Colombia has still grown about 6x the number of players and many of them just reaching 18 years old now.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 14 May 2018, 18:29

Are you suggesting that this is fake news? Lol.

:lol:

The numbers are not clear. They should be better organized, split full contact players from tag rugby kids and give the Unions a clear criterea: a player should count only if he/she has played full contact rugby in at least one match (sevens, tens, XVs or [maybe] beach fives) in the last 12 months in a competition recognized directly by the national union - or indirectly (organized by a local Union/association/league somewhow linked to the national union or by a government sports organizations).

It is possible to do this with World Rugby offering an online system for match sheets for all countries. It can be done (and would solve also those eligibility problems too). It can be an extension of the current World Rugby Passport (after solving the hacking problem :lol: )

Create another stats for possible unregistered players (estimative of players only training or playing only friendlies) and for people playing non-contact rugby.

Otherwise the unions will invent any number. Like Brazil does.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 14 May 2018, 19:17

victorsra wrote:
Are you suggesting that this is fake news? Lol.

:lol:

The numbers are not clear. They should be better organized, split full contact players from tag rugby kids and give the Unions a clear criterea: a player should count only if he/she has played full contact rugby in at least one match (sevens, tens, XVs or [maybe] beach fives) in the last 12 months in a competition recognized directly by the national union - or indirectly (organized by a local Union/association/league somewhow linked to the national union or by a government sports organizations).

It is possible to do this with World Rugby offering an online system for match sheets for all countries. It can be done (and would solve also those eligibility problems too). It can be an extension of the current World Rugby Passport (after solving the hacking problem :lol: )

Create another stats for possible unregistered players (estimative of players only training or playing only friendlies) and for people playing non-contact rugby.

Otherwise the unions will invent any number. Like Brazil does.


But if they split the full contact numbers from the tag numbers then how will they be able to manipulate their data to make it seem like everything is going amazing?

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 14 May 2018, 20:07

I wouldn't go as far as saying 'fake numbers'. But I'd strongly advise to only take into account left column numbers in the World Rugby map. 17,000 players sounds a lot more reasonable:


I would say there is not strong basis to say we have 170.000 kids playing tag rugby regularly too. There are MANY kids being presented to tag rugby and playing it in schools, but how regularly? If so every Brazilian kid is a basketball, team handball or volleyball player because it is in the schools. If so NZ could say all their kids are rugby players because they have fun with touch rugby in the parks and schools. Come on. I can kick a ball anytime and I would never call me a soccer player.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 14 May 2018, 21:09

Ultimately the registered players are those that either play in schools or pay dues for clubs. The total players is very easy to measure as the total number of people that have chucked a rugby ball around whether as part of GIR or otherwise. I don’t really see the issue with recording it this way, as long as you understand that total players is the total number of people to have passed a rugby ball that year. It’s a great measure for summing up the general outreach level.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 14 May 2018, 22:18

I understand what you but I know none of both numbers are accurate. The number of registered players is not the number of players that played matches. It is the number of entries in the players register system, that doesnt exclude inactive players (and that has some players counting twice due to register errors). And the total number of players is only an estimative.

I think to count as players people that only touched a ball is misleading . if the same concept was used in T1 countries we would have even more unreal numbers.

Look, it is an interesting source but if other countries use numbers like in Brazil we'll have stats that don't really shows us the situation. We need a better quality of numbers with clear criterea.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 14 May 2018, 23:11

victorsra wrote:I understand what you but I know none of both numbers are accurate. The number of registered players is not the number of players that played matches. It is the number of entries in the players register system, that doesnt exclude inactive players (and that has some players counting twice due to register errors). And the total number of players is only an estimative.

I think to count as players people that only touched a ball is misleading . if the same concept was used in T1 countries we would have even more unreal numbers.

Look, it is an interesting source but if other countries use numbers like in Brazil we'll have stats that don't really shows us the situation. We need a better quality of numbers with clear criterea.


This kind of reporting is fairly standarf across a number of sports. It does represent exposure which is a net positive. What now needs to jappen is programs designed to retain at least 10% of those exposed to the game on an annual basis.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 15 May 2018, 02:24

And that is what is happening here. Clubs dont have structure to receive those kids learning tag rugby. I can say 99% of them won't play contact rugby.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 15 May 2018, 02:50

In 2018 we are risked in Brazil to have ZERO 15-a-side under age competitions. Lowest point ever.

It wont happen because it is expected that São Paulo will have a competition in the second semestre with probably 3 or 4 clubs (it was postponed for late this year because now only 3 clubs have squads for that in all U15, U17 and U19. Other clubs in the state have just one age group with numbers enough to play 15s , and no more than 1 or 2 clubs each. Parana, Rio de Janeiro and Rio Grande do Sul have no more than 2 clubs able to play under age 15s. The others have players enough just for 7s or max 10s.

Not acceptable for a country that has "180.000 players". It is really bizarre to read such number knowing 160.000 are allegdly teens and kids. Unreal in practical terms.
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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 15 May 2018, 04:03

It's also not helpful because it doesn't tell you how much exposure they have to the sport. Sure they could've been involved with one after school program for a week and be considered rugby players and they would certainly at least be aware that the sport exists, but if they never move on to contact rugby (likely) then their only memory will likely be that one time in gym class they threw a ball around. As far as I'm concerned, these kids aren't even really playing what can be considered rugby so they might as well play some other made up gym class game. It's a pretty meaningless stat.

If you could break down those numbers and figure out how long these kids are playing for then that would at least make a difference. It's also important for the kids exposed to rugby that there is some sort of conversion that takes place, otherwise they will stop playing and not think twice about it.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Canalina » Tue, 15 May 2018, 06:36

I think to have understood that Guatemala ("preselecciòn") won 59-14 in El Salvador a warm-up match for the Sudamericano B
See this, from 5.45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVDGkbSP4R4

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Thomas » Tue, 15 May 2018, 09:18

Canalina wrote:I think to have understood that Guatemala ("preselecciòn") won 59-14 in El Salvador a warm-up match for the Sudamericano B
See this, from 5.45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVDGkbSP4R4


That is correct, it seems both were pre-selection squads, listening to the Salvadorean interview they may be preparing for Sudamericano C.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:20

argie wrote: the South American Professional League by franchises is still incipient and they are working to begining to run in 2020.

After the 2019 World Cup, of course.

argie wrote: Every year 200 Argentine players go abroad and only return 80. Most of them from the UAR's academies. All those professional players could be absorbed by the League.

Exactly.

argie wrote: Local competition must be rescheduled. The local tournaments could start in March, and be very short (about ten rounds), and that they classify to a great Torneo del Interior of 20 rounds that allows to level the competition with the URBA.

That would be too expensive, I think.

Instead, I would make each Torneo del Interior division have two groups of 6 teams, then semis and final (12 matches total).

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 15 May 2018, 11:24

thatrugbyguy wrote: I'm not against Mexico getting teams in a professional league eventually, it just seems like the sensible option is to make sure the teams in Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Paraguay are strong for the first few years before gambling with a long distant team from Mexico.

I totally agree. having teams from Colombia and Mexico is an even larger financial risk.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 15 May 2018, 16:24

NaBUru38 wrote:
argie wrote: Every year 200 Argentine players go abroad and only return 80. Most of them from the UAR's academies. All those professional players could be absorbed by the League.

Exactly.


Wow, I wasn't aware of that many Argentinians leaving. Is there anything to back that up? Just curious what causes this -- tours to Europe or do the overseas team sign them to academy contracts and they end up staying there?

Completely agreed that having even half of that many players back home in Argentina would be a big win for Argentina, both for the national team but also the club rugby scene. Keeping all those players close to home instead of losing them overseas just boosts the overall talent pool. These overseas guys can play professionally back home and top level club rugby can still exist.

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Re: South American rugby

Postby carbonero » Tue, 15 May 2018, 17:32

This is not an issue. Maybe 15 of those 200 players have potential of becoming Pumas. Most of them are just using rugby to live a couple of years in Europe.

Also, nobody is coming back for this SA league. There is no way that it pays better salaries than Spain, Italy, Pro D2 and Fedérale 1

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Re: South American rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 15 May 2018, 23:59

carbonero wrote: nobody is coming back for this SA league. There is no way that it pays better salaries than Spain, Italy, Pro D2 and Fedérale 1

Correct. The Argentine teams of the new professional tournament should focus on players under 25 years old.

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