Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Changing the spelling of surnames

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Changing the spelling of surnames

Postby STMKY » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 07:25

7. Anton Petrowitsch are Russian?

Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 07:40

STMKY wrote:7. Anton Petrowitsch are Russian?


Just by the writing of the name (German transcription from Cyrillic) more probably German origin.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 08:10

RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:7. Anton Petrowitsch are Russian?


Just by the writing of the name (German transcription from Cyrillic) more probably German origin.

Absolutely not a German name. I thought Russian or Serb.

Posts: 1674
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 08:57

Anton Petrowitsch played in Spain and he appeared in FER's database under Swedish citizenship. But many Chileans fled there in the 1970s, so I don't know if it's because he was born there or his family is originary from that country.

Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 10:03

STMKY wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:7. Anton Petrowitsch are Russian?


Just by the writing of the name (German transcription from Cyrillic) more probably German origin.

Absolutely not a German name. I thought Russian or Serb.


I never said, that it was a German name. I just said, that this writing (witsch) is typical for a German transcription from Cyrillic to German. Never seen it in other languages. But if you know another language using -witsch, I am happy to learn.
As Germany has million Germans with former Russians or Polish or Czech surnames, it is more likely a German (with a Russian or even Czech surname (there are more than 10 Czech towns called Petrovice) emigrating to Chile, than a Russian emigrating directly.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 10:31

RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:7. Anton Petrowitsch are Russian?


Just by the writing of the name (German transcription from Cyrillic) more probably German origin.

Absolutely not a German name. I thought Russian or Serb.


I never said, that it was a German name. I just said, that this writing (witsch) is typical for a German transcription from Cyrillic to German. Never seen it in other languages. But if you know another language using -witsch, I am happy to learn.
As Germany has million Germans with former Russians or Polish or Czech surnames, it is more likely a German (with a Russian or even Czech surname (there are more than 10 Czech towns called Petrovice) emigrating to Chile, than a Russian emigrating directly.

I do not know how you are in the West. But I mean his ethnicity. In Russia, Germans live more than 200 years, but still they are called Germans (Russian Germans). They have German names like Waldemar Schmidt. Also, the ancestors of Petrovich could live anywhere. In Sweden, Germany, but judging by the name he is probably Russian or Serb.

Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 16:07

STMKY wrote:I do not know how you are in the West. But I mean his ethnicity. In Russia, Germans live more than 200 years, but still they are called Germans (Russian Germans). They have German names like Waldemar Schmidt. Also, the ancestors of Petrovich could live anywhere. In Sweden, Germany, but judging by the name he is probably Russian or Serb.


One ancestor probably. Germany is a very mixed society, where you can't tell the ethnicity from 100 years ago.
Again: if his name was Petrovich he might have come from somewhere else. But his name is Petrowitsch. So this surname was created under German (or Austrian) jurisdiction as cyrillic is just transcribed like this in the German way.
Waldemar is just a Russian with some german ancestors moving back to Germany in the 90ies and germanizing Wladimir.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 17:08

RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:I do not know how you are in the West. But I mean his ethnicity. In Russia, Germans live more than 200 years, but still they are called Germans (Russian Germans). They have German names like Waldemar Schmidt. Also, the ancestors of Petrovich could live anywhere. In Sweden, Germany, but judging by the name he is probably Russian or Serb.


One ancestor probably. Germany is a very mixed society, where you can't tell the ethnicity from 100 years ago.
Again: if his name was Petrovich he might have come from somewhere else. But his name is Petrowitsch. So this surname was created under German (or Austrian) jurisdiction as cyrillic is just transcribed like this in the German way.
Waldemar is just a Russian with some german ancestors moving back to Germany in the 90ies and germanizing Wladimir.

You have a completely different view of these things than we have. Another world. For example, in Latvia at present 30% of the population are ethnic Russians. But the local Nazi government is changing their Russian names. You probably know such an Enisei player as Yuri Baranov. He is Russian. Was born in Riga (Latvia). But according to the documents he is not Yuri Baranov (Yuri Gagarin, Yuri Kushnarev etc), but Jurijs Baranovs.
http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/pla ... ef=dynamic
Do you understand the logic? The same is most likely with Petrovich. Perhaps his ancestors lived in Germany, but that does not make him a German.
And most of the Germans who came to the Russian Empire under Catherine the Second lived compactly within their community. They remained ethnic Germans.

User avatar
Posts: 1223
Joined: Wed, 22 Jul 2015, 18:20
Location: Moscow
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby Vova12 » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 17:28

Petrovich - 100% Yugoslav surname, not Russian.

Petrovich - Russian patronymic.

Ivan Petrovich Ivanov for example.
Image

Posts: 873
Joined: Thu, 15 Dec 2016, 11:18
National Flag:
KenyaKenya

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby Neptune » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 17:40

STMKY wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:I do not know how you are in the West. But I mean his ethnicity. In Russia, Germans live more than 200 years, but still they are called Germans (Russian Germans). They have German names like Waldemar Schmidt. Also, the ancestors of Petrovich could live anywhere. In Sweden, Germany, but judging by the name he is probably Russian or Serb.


One ancestor probably. Germany is a very mixed society, where you can't tell the ethnicity from 100 years ago.
Again: if his name was Petrovich he might have come from somewhere else. But his name is Petrowitsch. So this surname was created under German (or Austrian) jurisdiction as cyrillic is just transcribed like this in the German way.
Waldemar is just a Russian with some german ancestors moving back to Germany in the 90ies and germanizing Wladimir.

You have a completely different view of these things than we have. Another world. For example, in Latvia at present 30% of the population are ethnic Russians. But the local Nazi government is changing their Russian names. You probably know such an Enisei player as Yuri Baranov. He is Russian. Was born in Riga (Latvia). But according to the documents he is not Yuri Baranov (Yuri Gagarin, Yuri Kushnarev etc), but Jurijs Baranovs.
http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/pla ... ef=dynamic
Do you understand the logic? The same is most likely with Petrovich. Perhaps his ancestors lived in Germany, but that does not make him a German.
And most of the Germans who came to the Russian Empire under Catherine the Second lived compactly within their community. They remained ethnic Germans.

Please, please lets talk about today's games instead of ethnicity of the players. Chile played well, Kenya were still in holiday mode and credit to Hong Kong for putting up a good fight against Russia.

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 18:01

Vova12 wrote:Petrovich - 100% Yugoslav surname, not Russian.

Petrovich - Russian patronymic.

Ivan Petrovich Ivanov for example.

Yes, and it embarrassed me. Therefore 50 to 50 Russian or Serbian. But sometimes we rarely have such surnames as Petrovich, Vorontsevich, Grigorovich ... Also the name Anton is much more common among Russians than among Serbs.

User avatar
Posts: 1223
Joined: Wed, 22 Jul 2015, 18:20
Location: Moscow
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby Vova12 » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 18:11

STMKY wrote:Also the name Anton is much more common among Russians than among Serbs.


This name has a Latin origin and this gentlman looks at you with disappointment ...

Image
Image

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 18:42

Vova12 wrote:
STMKY wrote:Also the name Anton is much more common among Russians than among Serbs.


This name has a Latin origin and this gentlman looks at you with disappointment ...

It does not matter. How many Russians are named Anton and how many Serbs? I have never heard that Serbs were called Anton, and Russians often have that name.

Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 19:00

STMKY wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:I do not know how you are in the West. But I mean his ethnicity. In Russia, Germans live more than 200 years, but still they are called Germans (Russian Germans). They have German names like Waldemar Schmidt. Also, the ancestors of Petrovich could live anywhere. In Sweden, Germany, but judging by the name he is probably Russian or Serb.


One ancestor probably. Germany is a very mixed society, where you can't tell the ethnicity from 100 years ago.
Again: if his name was Petrovich he might have come from somewhere else. But his name is Petrowitsch. So this surname was created under German (or Austrian) jurisdiction as cyrillic is just transcribed like this in the German way.
Waldemar is just a Russian with some german ancestors moving back to Germany in the 90ies and germanizing Wladimir.

You have a completely different view of these things than we have. Another world. For example, in Latvia at present 30% of the population are ethnic Russians. But the local Nazi government is changing their Russian names. You probably know such an Enisei player as Yuri Baranov. He is Russian. Was born in Riga (Latvia). But according to the documents he is not Yuri Baranov (Yuri Gagarin, Yuri Kushnarev etc), but Jurijs Baranovs.
http://www.epcrugby.com/matchcentre/pla ... ef=dynamic
Do you understand the logic? The same is most likely with Petrovich. Perhaps his ancestors lived in Germany, but that does not make him a German.
And most of the Germans who came to the Russian Empire under Catherine the Second lived compactly within their community. They remained ethnic Germans.


Yeah, but his name is Petrowitsch not Petrovich. And in Germany there where no separate societies with different ethnicities. They mixed altogether. It was also not a forced name change, but probably the German transcription (Petrovich would pronunce close to Petrowish in German). Both in Prussia (nowadays Poland and Kaliningrad) and the Austrian Empire.
So even if the name came from Russia (which I doubt as the Latin origined name Peter's village is also quite common in other Slavic language), they definitely did not have just Russian ancestors, because people in Germany married between each other. My mother's part of the family has only Slavic surnames but all of them were and identified themselves as Germans.
So you can't compare to whatever happens in Latvia.

Sorry to all the others, but I really enjoy discussions like that. Thanks to my Russian friends to take part.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

User avatar
Posts: 1223
Joined: Wed, 22 Jul 2015, 18:20
Location: Moscow
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby Vova12 » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 19:00

STMKY wrote:It does not matter. How many Russians are named Anton and how many Serbs? I have never heard that Serbs were called Anton, and Russians often have that name.

This is not a Serb, but an emigrant from Serbia.
In Germany there is name Anton. Anton Polster, for example, is a football player in Austria.
Image

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 19:15

Ok, opinions are divided. There are three options. It is necessary to ask Petrovich who his ancestors were Russian, Germans or Serbs.

Posts: 1403
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 09:18
Location: Bucharest
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby amz » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 20:20

I am leaning to Petrović , ex-Yugoslav area which was part of Austrian Empire which may explain the Germanization of his name.

Maybe detach this discussion from this topic and move it in Other subjects would be good, I like this kind of discussions too.

Posts: 46
Joined: Sun, 21 May 2017, 09:02
National Flag:
PolandPoland

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby rey200 » Fri, 10 Nov 2017, 21:43

Rugbyliebe, of course there were forced renamings, even in the 80s. I personally had to deal with that kind of problem. Basically you were German or not German. Blood and soil kind of politics aka Spätaussiedler

Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 11 Nov 2017, 06:57

rey200 wrote:Rugbyliebe, of course there were forced renamings, even in the 80s. I personally had to deal with that kind of problem. Basically you were German or not German. Blood and soil kind of politics aka Spätaussiedler


Spätaussiedler are people with German ancestors coming to germany AFTER 1.1.1993. No Blut und Boden here as well. This is simply due to the fact that Germany lost 1/3 of its former size in both World wars and therefore millions of former German (and Austrian) citizens lived in other countries. There had to be a law how to give them a legal way to move to Germany. German speakers were not exactly the most popular folk after WW2.

Also which kind of renaming are you talking about? The only thing I can think about is the renaming of given names. My uncles giving name is Jinrich which was i.e. changed to Heinrich, when my mother's family were forced to leave the Czech Republic in 1946. But this was common until some years ago. Think about kings like Henry VIII. I am quite sure you didn't learn about him under this way in history. In German it is Heinrich VIII.
But all of this has absolutely nothing to do with this case. A slavic surname written in its correct German pronounciation/ transcription.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 82
Joined: Sat, 25 Apr 2015, 17:39
National Flag:
ChileChile

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby Amargo » Sat, 11 Nov 2017, 13:40

I don't know ir helps but its full name is ANTON PETROWITSCH KLOVUS and has a brother named Félix.

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 08:47

Amargo wrote:I don't know ir helps but its full name is ANTON PETROWITSCH KLOVUS and has a brother named Félix.

Haha no one guessed right. He is most likely an ethnic German from the Russian Empire with a Russified name.

Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 09:07

STMKY wrote:
Amargo wrote:I don't know ir helps but its full name is ANTON PETROWITSCH KLOVUS and has a brother named Félix.

Haha no one guessed right. He is most likely an ethnic German from the Russian Empire with a Russified name.


:D
Well, in the end we are all from East Africa ;)
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 46
Joined: Sun, 21 May 2017, 09:02
National Flag:
PolandPoland

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby rey200 » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 10:09

STMKY wrote:
Amargo wrote:I don't know ir helps but its full name is ANTON PETROWITSCH KLOVUS and has a brother named Félix.

Haha no one guessed right. He is most likely an ethnic German from the Russian Empire with a Russified name.


You sure? Klovus is his mother's name, so his maternal grandfather was called Klovus, which is afaik of swedish origin.

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 11:02

RugbyLiebe wrote:
STMKY wrote:
Amargo wrote:I don't know ir helps but its full name is ANTON PETROWITSCH KLOVUS and has a brother named Félix.

Haha no one guessed right. He is most likely an ethnic German from the Russian Empire with a Russified name.


:D
Well, in the end we are all from East Africa ;)

This theory is completely broken. Even in terms of logic. Black people could not evolve and become white. Although white people can become black. Initially there were different groups of people: white, black, Mongoloids. Most likely they came from different planets. I'm a supporter of this version.

Posts: 276
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Hong Kong Regal cup of Nations

Postby STMKY » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 11:04

rey200 wrote:
STMKY wrote:
Amargo wrote:I don't know ir helps but its full name is ANTON PETROWITSCH KLOVUS and has a brother named Félix.

Haha no one guessed right. He is most likely an ethnic German from the Russian Empire with a Russified name.


You sure? Klovus is his mother's name, so his maternal grandfather was called Klovus, which is afaik of swedish origin.

Why the name of the mother? In Chile, the surname is transmitted by the mother, and not by the father?

Next

Return to Other subjects

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest