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The IRB should block Israel

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Fri, 08 Aug 2014, 23:49

Curiosity got the better of me, so I waded my way through this page (No4), and all I can say is:

A. Wouldnt life had beeen simpler for everyone? had the Palestinians participated in the UN discussion/talks in 1947, when this land was being divied up?

AND B. Im glad I live in the bottom of the South Pacific Ocean.

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Sat, 09 Aug 2014, 07:36

Like the Native Americans participating in discussions with the Europeans on the "dividing up" of their land, you mean? Or the Aborigine or Maori participating in discussions with the Europeans on the "dividing up" of their land?

No, the only question you should be asking here is, wouldn't life have been simpler if people (and, let's face it, we're talking about Europeans as usual) did not go about stealing everybody else's land and massacring all resistance?

The United Nations discussions were dominated by Europeans looking for a way to alleviate their own sense of guilt at what had happened to the Jews in Europe. They thought they could do this by going along with a bizarre scheme to turn the clock back two millenia and recreate Biblical Israel.

When the Palestinians refused to accept a decision in Europe which had, for no just reason on this earth, deprived them of half their land in the blink of an eye, the Zionists, who had begun migrating from Europe under the British Mandate, turned to terrorism, ethnic cleanisng and outright massacres - driving out 700,000 natives. The Palestinians refer to this as the 'Nakba,' though it was virtually unheard of in the Western World until recently.

Israel has proceeded to take more and more land from the Palestinians, continuing to this day, to the point that the native population are now largely confined to a couple of ghettoes separated from one another by Israel - and a gigantic wall. All of this has been accompanied by regular bombings of the densely populated ghettoes and other areas, such as refugee camps.

The occupation is illegal, as are the settlements which are continuing to spring up all over what little land the Palestinians have left. Whatever fairly pathetic resistance the natives are able to muster in response should therefore be seen in the light of resistance - something we admired when carried out by our allies. Hamas was created in direct response to Israeli state terrorism, which had already been going on for decades - without any restraint being imposed upon them by the international community.

This is not a war; it is systematic ethnic cleansing by use of state terror. The Israelis have fighter jets and missiles, and are funded to the tune of billions of dollars by America each year. The Palestinians do not have fighter jets and missiles, and are a severely impoverished and downtrodden people in their own homeland. Even their utilities and resources are controlled by the Israelis, while tunnels to smuggle in food and medicine have been destroyed and closed down by the Israelis and the brutal US-funded military dictatorship of Egypt. About the only thing that has prevented Israel being punished by the UN for war crimes on scores of occasion has been the American veto.

The current attack on Gaza was entirely unprovoked; nothing to do with a triple homicide (which followed the execution of Palestinian boys peacefully commemorating the Nakba, and was in turn followed by the burning alive of a Palestinian boy by Israelis). It has killed 2000 Palestinians, mostly civilians, more than half of them women and children, targetting schools, UN shelters, hospitals, places of worship, refugee camps and a center for the disabled. Naturally the resistance have fired their pathetic rockets back in response, killing a grand total of 3 civilians (thus providing the American press with a convenient excuse to blame the native population for the whole thing as usual). The UN has referred to Israel's actions as war crimes, while many governments around the world have also condemned them and cut off diplomatic relations.
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Ser Podrick of Payne » Sat, 09 Aug 2014, 10:35

So much liberal softcock hand wringing. People just suck don't they? Sometimes you get pissed on and sometimes you're the one doing the pissing. That's life.

Just give the Palestinians and their supporters nukes and let both sides wipe other out. Sorted.

WTF is anything the IRB do going to change things!

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Sat, 09 Aug 2014, 21:03

Sometimes you get pissed on and sometimes you're the one doing the pissing. That's life.



Maha is 7. She might not see it that way. Her mum is dead. Victims of Israeli state terrorism. She is now paralysed from her neck down. Docters say she needs to get out of Gaza immediately for treatment.

Image


https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10464148_762105250508537_3514490389116188235_n.jpg

Pretty sure this guy doesn't see it that way either:

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sat, 09 Aug 2014, 23:00

Sometimes you get pissed on and sometimes your the one doing the pissing, thats life.

But if your a leader of Hamas, you live in Doha, Qata, no risk of even getting your boots wet.

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Sun, 10 Aug 2014, 06:51

They said the same about the leaders of the ANC during the Apartheid era and used this to justify & maintain political and trade ties with the white regime. It's the usual strategy, oppress a people, steal their land and resources, use violence to enforce this, then demonize your victims when they finally bite back, and make that the focus of the issue. When you speak to people in the language of violence, they can only respond with violence, and Israel has been speaking to the native Palestinians in the language of violence since long before we were born - ie state terrorism. That's why, eventually, Hamas was created. But if they were the intensely evil major threat to human civilization that the Zionists and their propagandists would have us believe, how is it that, while Israel - with its US financed military including fighter jets, drones and missiles - has killed something approaching 2000 civilians during their latest unprovoked rampage, Palestinian resistance has only managed to kill 3 Israeli civilians in response?

Hamas is, in fact, a political organisation, the choice of the Palestinian people (Fatah has proved impotent since the death of Arafat - who wanted to negotiate but was besieged in a bunker in Ramallah by the Israelis until the time of his highly suspicious death). Hamas has supported the two state solution, and even had its own set of perfectly reasonable conditions for a 10-year extension of the recent truce. Israel and the brutal, US-backed military dictatorship of Egypt wanted nothing to do with Hamas (again, the choice of the Palestinian people) and ignored their proposals completely. That's why the truce didn't work. Of course, the entire reason for this current campaign of state terror against Palestinians (slaughtering mostly women and children) is that Hamas & Fatah finally united, a development welcomed by world leaders - including the US!! Israel has always said it could not negotiate with a people whose leadership was divided. So when the Palestinian leadership defied all expectations and actually united, the colonial masters scrambled for a pretext for war - as they invariably have down down the ages when the prospect of peace actually became tenable.
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Ser Podrick of Payne » Sun, 10 Aug 2014, 10:51

Maha might not have been affected if Hamas weren't a bunch of cnuts cynically using civilians in Gaza as shields. The Hamas fcuknuts are just as much to blame, jihadist thugs and bullies who would GTFO of Gaza if they really cared about their people.

Support the innocent in Gaza by all means with humanitarian aid but make sure none of it goes to those Hamas arsepiecies. I'm sure you donate very generously and would go there yourself to help the affected, and don't just spout off about it on forums?

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Sun, 10 Aug 2014, 18:52

I am no fan of Hamas, Ser Podrick, but, as I said, making this the focus of the issue is like making the ANC the focus of the issue during the Apartheid era of South Africa. That's exactly what Israel and its US backers want us to do. That's textbook propaganda strategy. The British used the Mau Mau uprising in white-ruled Kenya the same way, and were extremely successful to their eternal shame. It's not original. The Native Americans were still being demonized on American Western Movies right up until the 1970s.

But let's take a look at the body count in Gaza. Around 2000 Palestinians and 3 Israeli civilians, I believe. Hamas have killed a few soldiers as well. Would you be happier, perhaps, if the Palestinians just laid down and died? Israel have stolen Palestinian land, carried out ethnic cleansing amid countless massacres and acts of terrorism, maintain an illegal occupation of Palestinian territories (rendering all response from the natives 'resistance)' and are forcing the native population to live in a constantly shrinking ghetto without control of their own resources and without freedom to travel from village to village.

International reporters and Amnesty International have denounced the 'myth' of human shields, suggesting the only ones employing this tactic were the Israelis themselves. The UN shelters, schools, hospitals and places of worship bombed were all found to be devoid entirely of weapons. What kind of 'shields' would children make anyway? They're not made of cast-iron, you know...

Even if, hypothetically speaking, the Palestinians were using human shields, why on earth is Israel bombing the hell out of them anyway? That's the only reason more than a thousand women and children have been killed, and thousands more - such as paralysed, 7-year-old Maha - have been seriously injured and lost close family members. You don't bomb somebody and then say 'but it's not our fault.' That's pure insanity. &, once again, there was no valid reason for starting this bombing campaign.

Hamas operates the smuggling tunnels, used mostly to bring in vital supplies to the Palestinian people. If they are bringing in arms, you can see by the Israeli body count of 3 that this is certainly not substantial and poses no realistic threat to the 4th most powerful army in the world. Never has. The money these tunnels generate pay the wages of thousands of Palestinians. By cutting off the tunnels, Israel and the US-backed military dictatorship of Egypt are further impoverishing the Palestinian people. At the same time America sends Israel billions of dollars every year, primarily to develop its military.
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 12 Aug 2014, 14:38

You've certainly swallowed the Hamas propaganda hook, line and sinker.

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Adamstown 7's » Tue, 12 Aug 2014, 15:21

Coloradoan wrote:You've certainly swallowed the Hamas propaganda hook, line and sinker.


I believe it is you that has succumbed to the Propagana Colorodoan *

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Tue, 12 Aug 2014, 20:44

I've never read anything Hamas have written, to my knowledge, Coloradoan.

I don't deny they are racists and terrorists, but . . .

- they were founded in response to decades of Israeli state terrorism
- they have responded to the language of violence with violence
- violent methods against an illegal occupation are forms of resistance
- they were also founded due to the impotence of Fatah
- their foundation was encouraged by Israel to counter the PLO
- Israel refused to negotiate peace with the PLO even when Arafat offered them such generous terms his own people were furious
- Israel state terrorism equates to ethnic cleansing
- Hamas is a political organization
- Hamas is the elected choice of its people
- Hamas' terms for a long-standing ceasefire are more than reasonable
- Hamas controls the Gazan tunnels and pays the wages of thousands of Palestinians
- they have killed more soldiers in this conflict than civilians (3) and no children
- Israel has killed mostly civilians (approx. 2000), including several hundred children
- Claims Hamas uses human shields have been dismissed by international journalists and aid workers in Gaza
- International journalists and aid workers claim it is Israel which uses human shields
- Claims Hamas stores weapons in hospitals, schools, etc, have been dismissed by international journalists and aid workers
- Israel's military HQ is in the middle of Tel Aviv. Does that make the people of Tel Aviv 'human shields?'
- Hamas has become the convenient excuse for Israel to justify its illegal occupation, ethnic cleansing, colonization & Apartheid programmes, just as the Apartheid regime of SA pointed the finger at the ANC and the British in Kenya blamed the Mau Mau uprising.
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Canalina » Thu, 14 Aug 2014, 06:11

Rowan wrote:I've never read anything Hamas have written, to my knowledge, Coloradoan.
.

Well, you should definitively do it.
Maybe you will not change your opinion, I'm too partially agree with your points; but opening this thread and discussing with passion for pages and then saying to have never read anything written by one of the two parts of the drama is a bit incoherent, to me.

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Thu, 14 Aug 2014, 06:45

Not at all, Canalina. I've read many books and countless articles on the issue, watched dozens of documentaries, and participated in protest rallies. I've also travelled to the region on three occasions. In addition to this, I have a number of Palestinian friends, and other friends who have worked with the Palestinians in Gaza themselves. I have even published an article of my own relating to the Palestinian issue in the local English language newspaper. I have a great deal of information about Hamas, but this has been provided by authors, journalists and presenters. I'm not aware of having read anything Hamas have written themselves, so the notion I have 'succumbed to their propaganda' is nonsense. That's all.
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Thu, 14 Aug 2014, 09:38

& if you are intrested, Hamas' evolution from a spiritual organization into a terrorist organization was not only permitted by Israel but actually nurtured to some degree, initially as a counterbalance to Fatah and the PLO, and ultimately to prevent any legitimate Palestinian claim to statehood. They were founded as the Islamic Association, essentially a charity organization, and set up hospitals, orphanages, schools and universities, created opportunities for women in employment, and provided financial aid to the poor (today a third of Palestinians rely on their financial support). They also built numerous mosques. Meanwhile, Israel continued to repress Fatah and the PLO, and brutally attack them and any surrounding civilian population on a regular basis. Only after the (first) Infitada - triggered by widespread extrajudicial killings and massacres of Palestinians by Israeli forces - did the Islamic Association morph into the resistance movement of Hamas. Following the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993, which Noam Chomsky described as a declaration of Apartheid and colonization, and a triumph for American and Israeli goals, did Hamas resort to terrorist activity. This is not to be condoned, of course, and neither was it supported by the majority of the Palestinian people, but it was practically insignificant when compared to the extreme level of state terrorism Israel had been subjecting the Palestinians to for several decades by then. Israel actually continued to support them, even during Netanyahu's first term in office, although this probably had as much to do with a mutual wish to sabotage the Oslo Accords (freeing up Israel to pursue its own objectives - without the slightest restraint), as it did with weakening Fatah and the PLO. Meanwhile, as a reward for not opposing the first US invasion of Iraq (Arafat and the PLO had opposed it), Hamas received generous funding from various oil-rich Gulf states, allowing it to virtually take control of the Palestinian economy. They are first and foremost a political organization, the popular choice of their people, who they continue to support in many ways. Unfortunately, however, they have played right into Tel Aviv's hands, neutralizing Fatah and the PLO, and providing Israel with a pretext (solely by their existence) to continue its ethnic cleansing and Apatheid policies, as well as a convenient justification for such violations of human rights (by their stubborn willingness to retaliate, however ineffectively).
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Wed, 27 Aug 2014, 08:25

Good to see the truce holding. But 2100 Palestinians are dead, including 500 children, while another 10,000 are injured and countless more are homeless and traumatized. Will Israel be punished this time? Or will it just be another US Veto and a furious verbal bashing with a feather duster? Meanwhile, this from the local English daily:

There are more and more calls from the football world calling international governing bodies to sanction Israel in regards to its attacks on Palestine

Ahmed Mohammed al-Qatar and Udai Jaber’s burgeoning football careers came to a screeching halt in early August when the two 19-year-olds were shot dead by Israeli forces in the West Bank town of Hebron during a protest against the war in Gaza. Days earlier, Ahed Zaqqut, a 49-year-old Palestinian football legend, who once played a French team captained by European football governing body UEFA President Michel Platini, died when his home in Gaza was hit by Israeli fire.

The deaths of the three players and the trauma of Israel’s heavy-handed, month-long assault on Gaza has not only cast a shadow over Palestinian football at a time that the Palestine national team was progressing with its qualification for the Asian Football Confederation (AFC) Challenge Club and upcoming participation in the Philippines’ Peace Cup.

Coupled with widespread international condemnation of Israel’s conduct of the Gaza war that has left almost 2,000 Palestinians dead and many more injured, they deaths have also focused the sporting world’s attention on problems Palestinian athletes face as a result of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and blockade of Gaza and fueled calls for a sporting boycott of Israel as part of a larger boycott, the disinvestment campaign. Among the often-gruesome images of the Gaza war that sparked widespread condemnation was video footage of four Palestinian boys killed in an Israeli attack as they were playing football on a Gaza beach.

Israel two months ago averted sanctions by world football body FIFA with the establishment of an independent committee tasked with monitoring progress in the removal of Israeli obstacles such as restrictions on the freedom of movement of Palestinian players and officials as well as the import of football-related goods. The commission is scheduled to report back to the FIFA executive committee in December. FIFA President Sepp Blatter cautioned when the commission was announced that to succeed the new committee “needs the full support of the Israeli government.”

If the Israeli-Palestinian stand-off remains as it is, the commission may not be able to report a great deal of progress. Israeli restrictions on travel out of the West Bank and between the West Bank and Gaza appear to have become more stringent since the Gaza war. Israel has barred thousands of Palestinians in recent weeks from leaving the West Bank.

“The main obstacle is the occupation and their treatment, daily, of the Palestinian sports community with hatred and enmity; restricting the movement of the players, staff and officials and even the movement of our national teams, whether men or women, from inside to outside [of the West Bank and Gaza] or inside the occupied territories,” said Palestine Football Association (PFA) President Jibril Rajoub on a 20-minute Al Jazeera talkshow entitled “Is it time for a sporting boycott of Israel?”

Rajoub, widely believed to be positioning himself as a candidate in Palestinian presidential elections, has stopped short in recent interviews of reviving his call for FIFA suspension of Israeli membership. “We need to try to develop and invest in football in Palestine, despite the difficulties we face ... We believe football should remain a tool to build bridges between people. Personally, I’ve been very saddened by the loss of Palestinian life in the conflict,” he said.

Rajoub may find his back-peddling difficult to maintain as the prospects for renewed fighting in Gaza loom large with cease-fire talks in Cairo between Israel and Hamas making little progress. The campaign to pressure FIFA to sanction Israel was part of a broader Palestinian move to gain recognition of Palestinian statehood through membership in international organizations and isolate Israel in the wake of the breakdown in April of U.S.-sponsored Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.

Pressure on the Palestinians by the donors of President Mahmoud Abbas’ Palestine Authority persuaded the Palestinians to put on hold plans to join the International Criminal Court which would have allowed them to mount a legal challenge against Israel. The Gaza war has, however, moved alleged Israeli war crimes center stage and strengthened Hamas, the Islamist group that controls Gaza and has been calling for charging Israel for its conduct of the war.

The Gaza war moreover has made fending off the threat of sanctions against Israel amid international sentiment toward the Jewish state a major priority for the Israeli government and growing calls for Israel to negotiate directly with Hamas rather than through third parties.

That sentiment was already building in important segments of the international sports community prior to the Gaza war. Last year, more than 60 prominent European players, including Chelsea’s Eden Hazard, Arsenal’s Abou Diaby and Paris Saint-Germain’s Jeremy Menez, protested against Israel’s hosting of the UEFA Under-21 championship. They warned that it would be “seen as a reward for actions that are contrary to sporting values… We, as European football players, express our solidarity with the people of Gaza who are living under siege and denied basic human dignity and freedom,” the players said in a statement.

The stakes for Israel and the Palestinians are high. Israel cannot afford to become an international outcast while the Palestinians see anti-Israeli sentiment as an opportunity to further their cause. To avoid blacklisting at least on the football pitch, Israel could ease restrictions on Palestinian football.
Doing that, however, would likely be perceived as bowing to pressure, in the absence of a Palestinian-Israeli agreement on a long-lasting cease-fire in Gaza that would have to involve a controlled softening, if not lifting of the blockade. That is a tall order with the talks in Cairo hanging by a bare thread.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/gaza-w ... sCatID=364
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Canalina » Wed, 27 Aug 2014, 10:22

Rowan wrote:Not at all, Canalina. I've read many books and countless articles on the issue, watched dozens of documentaries, and participated in protest rallies. I've also travelled to the region on three occasions. In addition to this, I have a number of Palestinian friends, and other friends who have worked with the Palestinians in Gaza themselves. I have even published an article of my own relating to the Palestinian issue in the local English language newspaper. I have a great deal of information about Hamas, but this has been provided by authors, journalists and presenters. I'm not aware of having read anything Hamas have written themselves, so the notion I have 'succumbed to their propaganda' is nonsense. That's all.

I stay on my point: I'm sure you are a lot informed about palestinian events, much more than me, but exactly because you are a lot informed you should have read also some first hand thought by Hamas' leaders. If not, it's like discussing a thesis on Plato, having read a lot of books about Plato and no one of his texts.

I know that Hamas is also a charity organization, that they have done a lot of things for the population. But when I see, for example, images like those in the video below, with Hamas celebrating the "victory" after all these deaths, these wounds, this destruction, and with the only viewable woman completely veiled in black and shaking a gun, I don't think they are charitable & aggressive, I just think they are stupid

http://video.repubblica.it/dossier/gaza ... ref=nrct-5

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Wed, 27 Aug 2014, 16:07

I know that Hamas is also a charity organization, that they have done a lot of things for the population. But when I see, for example, images like those in the video below, with Hamas celebrating the "victory" after all these deaths, these wounds, this destruction, and with the only viewable woman completely veiled in black and shaking a gun, I don't think they are charitable & aggressive, I just think they are stupid



No arguments. I'm not fan of Hamas. But unfortunately I don't read Arabic, and I'm unaware of anything they've written in English, Turkish, Spanish or French. I've read articles about them, of course, and you'd be surprised how different the perspective is when you read about Palestinian issues in the above-mentioned languages.

One thing is for certain: Hamas is merely a symptom of Zionist ethnic cleansing and colonization of Palestine. Indeed, Israel was carrying out state terrorism for decades before Hamas was formed. & as I mentioned earlier, Hamas was originally a spiritual movement encouraged by Israel as a counterweight to Fatah and PLO control. They turned to terrorism during the first Intifada in the early 90s, which followed atrocities against Palestinian civilians. I'm not condoning that, but focussing on them is exactly like focussing on the ANC during the Apartheid years.

While I share your disgust at celebrations after a war which has killed and maimed so many Palestinians, it is true that the Israeli bombardment has failed to achieve its objective - namely to destroy Fatah-Hamas unity (which was the choice of the Palestinian people). That's not a Pyrrhic victory. It's a real victory. Palestinians are in a stronger position politically than they have been for some time, and Israel can no longer use the 'divided leadership' excuse to avoid negotiating with them. But, sadly for Palestinians, all this has had to come at a horrendous cost.

Will Israel be punished for its countless war crimes?

50 DAYS OF ARMED CONFLICT IN GAZA

- 491 children killed (average of 10 per day)
- 3,106 children injured. 89 entire families killed
- 475,000 people displaced - one person out of four in Gaza
- 337,851 people sheltering in 109 schools
- 51,600 children homeless
- 373,000 children need immediate psychosocial support (nearly half of all children)
- Massive contamination of unexploded ordnance (UXOs)
- Electricity systems, water and waste water lines damaged extensively
- 244 schools damaged, 22 destroyed
- start of school year postponed

© UNICEF / Eyad El Baba
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sat, 30 Aug 2014, 00:25

Since Israel hasnt been found guilty of committing any war crimes, I cant imagine why there would be any reason for them to be punished.

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Sat, 30 Aug 2014, 08:36

A UN commission has already been set up to investigate war crimes and human rights violations in Gaza, and this has been supported by many prominent groups and individuals from Human Rights organizations to national governments. But this only concerns the latest massacre of Palestinian civilians by Israeli forces. There is a long list of them, and only the American veto has prevented Israel being punished on countless occassions.

� Since 1967, Israel has established about 150 settlements (residential and others) in the West Bank, including East
Jerusalem, in addition to some 100 “outposts” erected by settlers without official authorization.

� While fenced or patrolled areas of settlements cover three percent of the West Bank, 43% of the West Bank is off-limits for Palestinian use because of its allocation to the settlement’s local and regional councils.

� Virtually all of the land viewed by Israel as public or “state land” (27% of the West Bank) has been allocated to settlements, rather than for the benefit of the local population (B’Tselem).

� Over 60 percent of the Palestinian-owned structures demolished in 2011, due to the lack of permit, were located in areas allocated to settlements.

� In 2011, five Palestinians (inc. two children) were killed and over 1,000 injured (of whom nearly a fifth were children) by Israeli settlers or security forces in incidents directly or indirectly related to settlements, including demonstrations.

� Over 90% of Israeli police investigations into incidents of settler violence during the past six years (2005-2010) were closed without indictment (Yesh Din).

� More than 500 internal checkpoints, roadblocks and other physical obstacles impede Palestinian movement inside the West Bank, including access of children to schools; they exist primarily to protect settlers and facilitate their movement, including to and from Israel.

An Israeli activist speaks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHQIzaZoCfI#t=2527
A Lebanese activist speaks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHAmAULY23U#t=341
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sat, 30 Aug 2014, 21:36

" and only the American veto has prevented Israel being punished on countless occassions."



I'm sure I read or heard somewhere that the support for Israel and the Jews is very powerful in not only the commercial sector of the US/New York but also both the Republican and Democrat parties in the US.

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Sun, 31 Aug 2014, 05:20

Yes, because the Zionist group (comprised mostly of 70 million Christian fanatics who want to recreate Biblical Israel 2000 years after the fact) is one of the richest and most powerful lobbies in America - where electoral campaigns run on a system of open bribery. There is no real democracy in America. The Democrats and Republicans are just two sides of the same coin and their foreign policy barely differs at all. Neither does their foreign policy reflect the will of the people. The Reagan administration, for example, was notorious for doing pretty much the opposite of what the majority of Americans actually wanted them to do (according to countless polls).

But the point is that Israel is an occupying force, carrying out systematic colonization of Palestinian territory, it has virtually imprisoned the native peoples in two refugee camps that have become overcrowded ghettoes, and that it routinely bombs densely populated residential areas, including schools, hospitals, mosques, UN shelters and centers for the disabled. Supporting them is the same as supporting the colonization of the Americas, Australia or NZ. There is also a system of Apartheid in Israel, segregating the population and discriminating against the native people and other non-Jews. Supporting Israel means supporting Apartheid. Focussing on Hamas is the same as focusing on Nelson Mandela & the ANC during white rule in SA, instead of focusing on the real problem, which was Apartheid.

� Since 1967, Israel has established about 150 settlements (residential and others) in the West Bank, including East
Jerusalem, in addition to some 100 “outposts” erected by settlers without official authorization.

� While fenced or patrolled areas of settlements cover three percent of the West Bank, 43% of the West Bank is off-limits for Palestinian use because of its allocation to the settlement’s local and regional councils.

� Virtually all of the land viewed by Israel as public or “state land” (27% of the West Bank) has been allocated to settlements, rather than for the benefit of the local population (B’Tselem).

� Over 60 percent of the Palestinian-owned structures demolished in 2011, due to the lack of permit, were located in areas allocated to settlements.

� In 2011, five Palestinians (inc. two children) were killed and over 1,000 injured (of whom nearly a fifth were children) by Israeli settlers or security forces in incidents directly or indirectly related to settlements, including demonstrations.

� Over 90% of Israeli police investigations into incidents of settler violence during the past six years (2005-2010) were closed without indictment (Yesh Din).

� More than 500 internal checkpoints, roadblocks and other physical obstacles impede Palestinian movement inside the West Bank, including access of children to schools; they exist primarily to protect settlers and facilitate their movement, including to and from Israel.

An Israeli activist speaks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHQIzaZoCfI#t=2527
A Lebanese activist speaks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHAmAULY23U#t=341
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sun, 31 Aug 2014, 08:18

There will always be critics of the USA and its support for Israel, but in fairness to the Americans have always been upfront about it and unwavering in there support, I believe that when the State of Israel was "invented", within 11 minutes, US were the first to racognise it. but sometimea this criticism is without foundation. and the issues are far more complex than just blaming America.

We have similar forms of unfounded criticism in the sport of Rugby, New Zealand has in the past been accused of "Poaching" Polynesian players from the Pacific Islands, to strenghen their nationakl team the All Blacks, yet Auckland is the largest Polynesiian city in the world. I am lead to believe that New York is the Largest Jewish city in the World. I think I know how they feel.

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Canalina » Sun, 31 Aug 2014, 08:37

Rowan wrote:No arguments. I'm not fan of Hamas. But unfortunately I don't read Arabic, and I'm unaware of anything they've written in English, Turkish, Spanish or French. I've read articles about them, of course, and you'd be surprised how different the perspective is when you read about Palestinian issues in the above-mentioned languages.

One thing is for certain: Hamas is merely a symptom of Zionist ethnic cleansing and colonization of Palestine. Indeed, Israel was carrying out state terrorism for decades before Hamas was formed. & as I mentioned earlier, Hamas was originally a spiritual movement encouraged by Israel as a counterweight to Fatah and PLO control. They turned to terrorism during the first Intifada in the early 90s, which followed atrocities against Palestinian civilians. I'm not condoning that, but focussing on them is exactly like focussing on the ANC during the Apartheid years.

While I share your disgust at celebrations after a war which has killed and maimed so many Palestinians, it is true that the Israeli bombardment has failed to achieve its objective - namely to destroy Fatah-Hamas unity (which was the choice of the Palestinian people). That's not a Pyrrhic victory. It's a real victory. Palestinians are in a stronger position politically than they have been for some time, and Israel can no longer use the 'divided leadership' excuse to avoid negotiating with them. But, sadly for Palestinians, all this has had to come at a horrendous cost.

Maybe I'm wrong but according to all what I remember, Hamas celebrate the "victory" always, after every conflict with Israel. I don't think that in the video above they were celebrating the still existing unity with Fatah, they were simply pretending that Israel renounced to continue its war operations because defeated by Hamas. As they always do.
I'm not an expert of this conflict but I have heavy doubts that "Palestinians are in a stronger position politically than they have been for some time". They broke every truce, they launched plus than one thousand rockets to Israel, their leading organization was apparently proud and happy after a conflict that have made enormous damages on people and buildings: at least here in Italy, I think they lost credit during these last months. Well, probably both Israel and Hamas lost credit.

Rowan wrote:There is no real democracy in America…
...overcrowded ghettoes…

I'm a bit uncomfortable hearing you saying that there is no democracy in America and at the same time defending Hamas' Palestine, a land where you can't be gay, where you can't say or write nothing against Allah, where you can't build a church, where you can't try to make proselytes for a religion different by islam, where women have to go completely veiled to be respected, where you almost never see a woman during rallies or parties or other events, where music (so at least I've read) is prohibited. I think you are right in some of your points, but I also think you have to balance your judgments. Not always the people with more power are the evil and not always those with less power are the good.
About the ghettoes, they are overcrowded because, if it's true what I've read, every palestinian woman have averagely 5 children. I'm not saying that it's fair to force them living in a ghetto, I just mean that they are in a overcrowded place because of themselves. If they lived in the whole Israel/Palestine, they would slowly overcrowd also that territory.
I hate the Israel's arrogant lands stealing, but I also think that fanatism and obtusity by palestinians made the situation worst.

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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby Rowan » Sun, 31 Aug 2014, 11:31

They broke every truce,


I think you are referring not to a break of truces but a resumption of hostilities at the end of ceasefire arrangements, and that both sides are blaming the other for this. Regardless, the conflict was started by Israel, for no reason (certainly not a treble homicide, which itself followed the gunning down of peaceful Palestinian protestors on Nakba Day), and killed over 2100 people, mostly civilians, about a quarter of them children. The resistance killed about 70 Israelis, only a few of them civilians, and no children.

you can't be gay, where you can't say or write nothing against Allah, where you can't build a church, where you can't try to make proselytes for a religion different by islam, where women have to go completely veiled to be respected, where you almost never see a woman during rallies or parties or other events, where music (so at least I've read) is prohibited.


I don't believe that's true. No churches? But 10% of Palestinians are Christians. And many of their leading activists are women. There may be certain rules against some of these things, but I don't think anybody really cares, any more than we care about half the stuff the church tells us to do.

, if it's true what I've read, every palestinian woman have averagely 5 children.


This is quite normal in 3rd World countries. For one reason, they expect at least one or two of their children will never live to adulthood, maybe more. Are you saying there should be a limit on how many children women have?

but I also think that fanatism and obtusity by palestinians made the situation worst.


That's what living under a brutal and racist occupation does to native peoples. History is full of it - Nelson Mandela & the ANC as just one example...

:evil: & speaking about breaking truces, here are today's news headlines:
Israel announced Sunday it will expropriate 400 hectares (988 acres) of Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank, angering the Palestinians
. This latest act of colonization, coming hard on the heels of the latest massacre, is both illegal and provocative, obviously. :evil:
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Re: The IRB should block Israel

Postby NedRugby » Mon, 01 Sep 2014, 16:16

Canalina wrote:
Rowan wrote:I've never read anything Hamas have written, to my knowledge, Coloradoan.
.

Well, you should definitively do it.
Maybe you will not change your opinion, I'm too partially agree with your points; but opening this thread and discussing with passion for pages and then saying to have never read anything written by one of the two parts of the drama is a bit incoherent, to me.


It is actually quite easy to find an english translation of the Hamas charter. There is a Wikipedia article called Hamas Covenant which has a external link to this website.

Article 7 is interesting with this quote:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)

But the whole charter is interesting.

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