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New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby m.map » Fri, 12 Jun 2015, 20:03

YamahaKiwi wrote:Exactly johnny. I love the fact Canada chose a flag that is very distinctive and is known all around the world. My late grandfather fought in WW2 and I don't know if he really cared about the colour of the flag etc he fought under. I think he was fighting for bigger reasons. Canadian soldiers in both world wars fought under the old imperial flag with union jack but that didn't stop Canada changing it's flag and didn't mean it's soldiers were disrespected. I'm sure Canadians of today have as much respect for the sacrifices made by their soldiers under the previous flag as NZers for soldiers that fought under our current flag. I am in favour of changing because I do not think the current flag represents where NZ is as a country now. We are not the country we were in 1914 or 1940. I'm sorry but I think it's a tenuous argument to link respect of the flag to the sacrifice made by soldiers in past wars. I will be transparent and honest and say even as a member of the pakeha majority I have never liked the current NZ flag and its association to the UK (I am of English stock). I guess I've never been particularly enamoured that one family who are just other homo sapiens like you and me somehow are considered special and have special privilege. It angers me also that despite NZers and Aussies being used as cannon-fodder in Greece and Crete where we had no chance of winning in WW2, the UK govt these days is stressing it's relationship with other parts of the globe and in contrast is forever trying to cut any privileges NZers and Australians once had despite the blood they spilt in helping the UK. Then you see people from countries with far more tenuous links to the UK than many Kiwis and Aussies getting an easy ride into the UK. As far as I'm concerned the sooner we get the union jack off our flag the better! I want to see a NZ that is confident in its own skin to choose it's own flag like Canadians did that reflects its independence and growing maturity as a country in its own right. Yes, spoken like a true left-wing republican and nationalist! :lol:

I'd be happy with any of 1-3 as they are distinctive, original and like the Canadian flag will be well recognised around the world. I've always preferred the silver fern to the NZ flag. To me it has always represented NZ far more than the official flag. Some NZers say that black has a negative connotation in other countries but I really couldn't give a toss whether it does or not. To me it means strength, power, and beauty. To me it says even as a small country to stand tall and proud. It's inspirational. The current flag in contrast doesn't inspire me at all. Just my personal view.

I agree with every single word, YK
If I were a newzealander, would choose n° 1
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Adamstown 7's » Mon, 15 Jun 2015, 09:48

What about a big cloud?....

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Fri, 19 Jun 2015, 22:15

Anything without a Union Jack will do me. To the indigenous population that's a bit like the Confederate flag to African-Americans. Time for NZ to grow up and gets its own flag, and hopefully that will reflect the indigenous culture to some degree...
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 20 Jun 2015, 00:26

Actually that's an incorrect analogy Rowan :roll: . While we can only generalise because the crown's relationship with Maori differs depending on which Iwi (nation) or hapu (sub-nation) we're talking about, the majority retain a deep relationship with the English crown due to the treaty that was signed with it. This can be seen in the difference of respect and treatment on visits to Maori marae by members of the British royal family and ministers of the NZ govt. With one memorable exception, members of the royal family have always been accorded a high amount of respect on such visits, compared to that sometimes received by NZ govt ministers, including the PM.

Their beef by and large is not with the English crown, but with the settler and colonial govt. If you're going to use the Confederates as an anology in a NZ context, the one NZ colonial/settler govt = confederates to many NZ Maori would probably be the most accurate. It's interesting to note that for the first part of the post-treaty history of the nation, there was often friction between the settler govt and the UK crown over what the settlers and its govt perceived as unjustified support for Maori against their never-ending quest for accruing more land. In this way many white, pakeha NZers have never accepted the treaty as a valid document as they always argue it was done unilaterally by the UK crown and Maori and they weren't a party to it shown by the fact that the settler govt continually ignored and sidelined the treaty until the mid 1980s when finally it was incorporated into the constitution and given legal effect. So for a completely different reason from myself, there are right-wing NZers who also want the UK crown gone but because they blame it for the treaty that was entered into with the indigenous people of the country.

Infact while most people might expect Maori to overwhelmingly support total independence from the UK, that's not necessarily the case at all, as while NZ's head of state is still the British king or queen, they have rights under the Treaty of Waitangi. NZ formally breaking away from the UK would mean that treaty is effectively invalidated. That's a point many senior figures in Maoridom have repeatedly brought up re NZ becoming a republic. They would want the treaty newly ratified within the new republic's constitution or a new one agreed to that retained those rights before supporting a republican move. While I'm pro-republican I see where they are coming from and agree that it's a vital pre-condition to NZ breaking loose, many other white, pakeha NZers would only be too happy to see the Treaty torn down and Maori stripped of what they see as special privileges. Getting back to the flag though, I don't think Maori see the union jack on it in confederate terms but yes, surely they would rather see a flag with some indigenous character to it.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sat, 20 Jun 2015, 06:28

I think it's an apt enough analogy, in very basic terms, of course. The Union Jack reduces New Zealand to the status of a 'little Britain' and denies the identity of the native people. It is the flag of a nation which invaded New Zealand, carried out a genocide, and stole the land. It is a symbol of colonized New Zealand and a racist heritage, and was often cut down in protest by Maori tribes. Invariably flags preferred by the Maori community do not include the Union Jack.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 20 Jun 2015, 12:15

Umm, you obviously didn't read my post at all because yet again you've confused the actions of the settler govt and the British crown. While British troops did indeed take part in the NZ wars on the side of the settler govt, it's well known that the settler govt was set up in the first place because the settlers were angry and frustrated with the representatives of the crown*, especially in the restricted way they allowed land sales and it is the settlers who perpetrated the wrongs not the British crown. Get your facts right Rowan. As far as the cutting down of the union jack flag is concerned, yes it happened and 4-5 times up north of Auckland. Heke and his followers did feel betrayed by the crown but I'm sure most of the anger of Maori was reserved for the unscrupulous settlers. They were the ones who made the trouble.

Again I would emphasise the relation between the British Crown and Maori is a lot more respectful and the family has a higher place in Maori hearts than the NZ settler govt and this relates purely to the importance Maori hold the Treaty of Waitangi in - I think from their perspective there is a bond through the treaty. Anyone who's seen royal family members greeted on marae would understand that straight away. Maybe they don't want to see the union jack in the flag either but I don't know if the majority of Maori see it in the terms you've written in either (and to be quite clear I'm talking purely about the union jack, not the NZ flag which is another matter altogether and does represent a colonial settler govt). By the way, I'd be interested to know how you know what flags are preferred by the Maori community. Yes they have their own flags for their own nations but why would they have the union jack in anyway. those flags are for them not the whole country. I'm a born and bred NZer whose lived most of my life here and I don't know (hence I haven't deigned to write what flag Maori would most probably like) so I'm sure as hell confused as to how you would know that. I do obviously completely agree that from my perspective (not Maori) the current flag reduces NZ to a little Britain which does not adequately fit the identity of the NZ today.

Lastly, as a moderator of this site I'm going to warn you over your use of language, more particularly the use of the word genocide. I find the use of this word in the NZ context, especially as compared to the genocide of the Jews, other minorities, opposition figures including church leaders by the Nazis, the genocide committed in the former Yugoslavia, or by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, totally unacceptable. If I was Jewish or one of the people affected by the above genocides that was a member on here I would be extremely upset that you had used that terminology to describe a piece of history where no doubt wrongs of which you name some were committed but not where people of a particular race were actively hunted down to be slaughtered. Land stealing, armed conflict, theft of sovereign rights and racist social policies implemented by successive settler govts, yes. Genocide as the pre-meditated murder of many people - no, no ,no no! Maybe you got confused between NZ and Tasmania. Rowan, I'm warning you - be very careful with the language you choose to use.

(*hence the analogy to the confederates in forming their own government rather than being subject to that of the crown though unlike the Confederates they never actually seceded of course, they just sidelined and took away the governing power of the crown's representatives in NZ. Of course if they'd done the same thing a century earlier the crown might not have taken it so easily and there may have been a second war of independence!)

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sat, 20 Jun 2015, 20:39

My apologies, didn't mean to offend anyone. FYI, the term in question has been applied by Pultizer Prize-winning author and scientist Jared Diamond, among others. But let's leave it there.

As you mentioned, the British did commit some troops to the New Zealand Wars - 18,000 of them, in fact - creating a gross imbalance in manpower and weaponry despite the tenacious guerilla tactics of the Maori.

By the end of the wars the Maori population had dropped from around two hundred thousand to approximately forty thousand, according to general estimates, although Diamond has placed the figure as low as 15,000.

The British troops mounted campaigns to overpower the Maori King Movement and acquire farming land for the settlers. In the sources I am able to reference online the latter are referred to as 'English settlers,' not New Zealanders.

The respectful greeting extended to visiting members of THE royal family is the same as that extended to all visiting foreign dignitaries. This is a feature of Maori culture.

I think the Tino Rangitiratanga flag is the most recognised Maori flag in New Zealand. A black top and red bottom, symbolizing the coming together of the sky-god Rangi and earth-goddess Papa-tu-a-Nuku in the creation of life force, are divided in the middle by a rolling white cloud in a spiral-like koru design.

Another design popular among the Maori community is the Tuhoe flag of the Te Mana Motuhake o Tuhoe independence movement. It features a black, red and green background, divided by white lines, and with a white star on an arch (actually resembles the Kenya flag a little).

I have Maori family and read a great deal about culture and history, though I tend to favor the Maori perspective on NZ. I recently finished Tangata Whenua, in fact; a comprehensive history of the Maori from their ancient origins to the 21st century. I wonder if you've got around to it yet yourself . . .
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sat, 20 Jun 2015, 21:09

If you are going to favour the perspective of some one like Aroha Harris then might I respectfully suggest that you also reqire some balance?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Fri, 26 Jun 2015, 19:16


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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Fri, 26 Jun 2015, 20:59

:thumbup:
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Fri, 26 Jun 2015, 23:21

I often get the feeling that the Uk would prefer to be an ally of countries like Greece and Poland than have connections to New Zealand. As Richie said "Black is our colour".

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Sables4EVA » Sat, 27 Jun 2015, 05:02

Not a bad looking flag at all.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sat, 27 Jun 2015, 07:51

I like it. Not sure what red, white and blue means to NZ tho. Green, white and black (sky) would be better.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby The Do » Thu, 02 Jul 2015, 02:17

It is obviously in recognition to its historical British links. The middle red stripe in the leaf is a nod towards the Union Jack which is being replaced. It is the same as the middle flag in the opening post. It has a large red and white diagonal strip which represent one arm of the Union Jack. That flag indicates that black and white are the national colours, the silver fern it floral emblem, it was part of the British Empire and with the Southern Cross, it states that NZ is in the Southern Hemisphere.
In Vexliology Red represents blood, war, struggle etc as well as socialism/communism. Red can also indicate linkage to the old British Empire, especially those countries that had used a red ensign design as their national flag in the past

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Thu, 02 Jul 2015, 11:25

Sure. But I think the idea is to cut the apron strings and create a flag which reflects the distinct culture of New Zealand. A flag which retains intrinsic ties to Britain does not fit this requirement. In fact, the only thing about New Zealand society that is truly distinctive is the native culture. Red and black are actually the colours of the most popular Maori flag (scroll up), but the addition of blue serves only to retain a pre-colonial image and has no local significance at all. As a background for the sky is should be replaced by black, representing both the night sky (in which the Southern Cross can actually be seen), and the national colours of most New Zealand sports teams & athletes.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 08 Jul 2015, 06:26

Rowan wrote:Sure. But I think the idea is to cut the apron strings and create a flag which reflects the distinct culture of New Zealand. A flag which retains intrinsic ties to Britain does not fit this requirement. In fact, the only thing about New Zealand society that is truly distinctive is the native culture. Red and black are actually the colours of the most popular Maori flag (scroll up), but the addition of blue serves only to retain a pre-colonial image and has no local significance at all. As a background for the sky is should be replaced by black, representing both the night sky (in which the Southern Cross can actually be seen), and the national colours of most New Zealand sports teams & athletes.


NZ's culture is obviously hugely influenced by its past ties to Britain, from the sports it plays to the language spoken as a first language by the vast majority of its citizens. To me, it seems much more that you just hate Britain and that is the real reason you want to see nothing to do with it on the flag.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby The Do » Sun, 12 Jul 2015, 08:26

Coloradoan wrote:
Rowan wrote:Sure. But I think the idea is to cut the apron strings and create a flag which reflects the distinct culture of New Zealand. A flag which retains intrinsic ties to Britain does not fit this requirement. In fact, the only thing about New Zealand society that is truly distinctive is the native culture. Red and black are actually the colours of the most popular Maori flag (scroll up), but the addition of blue serves only to retain a pre-colonial image and has no local significance at all. As a background for the sky is should be replaced by black, representing both the night sky (in which the Southern Cross can actually be seen), and the national colours of most New Zealand sports teams & athletes.


NZ's culture is obviously hugely influenced by its past ties to Britain, from the sports it plays to the language spoken as a first language by the vast majority of its citizens. To me, it seems much more that you just hate Britain and that is the real reason you want to see nothing to do with it on the flag.


:shock: :lol: :lol:
You just wrote what I've been thinking for the last 6 months

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Mon, 13 Jul 2015, 07:46

But I think the idea is to cut the apron strings and create a flag which reflects the distinct culture of New Zealand. A flag which retains intrinsic ties to Britain does not fit this requirement.


It is also contemptuous of the Maori.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby NedRugby » Mon, 13 Jul 2015, 19:18

No it isnt.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Mon, 13 Jul 2015, 21:56

According to my whanau it is. But I can see there is no respect here, and only contempt, for the Maori perspective among people who clearly know little about them, their history, the atrocities committed against them, the theft of their land and the crushing of their culture.

In February 1992 Matiu Rata, a former Minister of Maori Affairs and the founder of Māori political party Mana Motuhake, called for the flag to be redesigned to 're-establish our national identity'.


http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/calls-new-flag

Image
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 14 Jul 2015, 04:26

Hysterical hyperbole seems to be par for the course with you, so no surprise there. The only person displaying any contempt for a group of people on this thread is you.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Tue, 14 Jul 2015, 08:15

Rowan wrote:According to my whanau it is. But I can see there is no respect here, and only contempt, for the Maori perspective among people who clearly know little about them, their history, the atrocities committed against them, the theft of their land and the crushing of their culture.

In February 1992 Matiu Rata, a former Minister of Maori Affairs and the founder of Māori political party Mana Motuhake, called for the flag to be redesigned to 're-establish our national identity'.


http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/calls-new-flag

Image



And that put an end to his political career.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Tue, 14 Jul 2015, 08:46

And that put an end to his political career.


:thumbup: Which says a lot about New Zealand politics.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Wed, 15 Jul 2015, 07:43

Rowan wrote:
And that put an end to his political career.


:thumbup: Which says a lot about New Zealand politics.



No. It says a lot about Matt Rata.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Tue, 28 Jul 2015, 12:11

Winner of the Gareth Morgan competition for a national flag to honor the spirit of the Treaty of Waitangi:

Image

Doesn't do much for me . . . :roll:
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