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New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

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New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby NedRugby » Wed, 29 Oct 2014, 19:10

What do our Kiwi forum members think?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11350232

Here are some proposed alternatives from Wikipedia

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Sables4EVA » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 05:59

The middle one with the diagonal red stripe looks interesting.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 10:28

But what is that diagonal stripe all about? Looks kind of military. I'd favour the second example. Stars and stripes are so cliche, as is red white and blue, while the silver fern option seems solely based on All Blacks pride and, I'm sorry, but there's more to life than rugby. I actually think the decision ought to be made by the indigenous Maori community.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Sables4EVA » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 15:07

I have no idea what the stripe is but I thought it looked the most striking.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 20:57

I have absolutely no wish to disrespect the flag that New Zealanders fought and died under, but John key is right, from a commercial marketing perspective there is mileage to be achieved by changing the flag.

It needs to be an emblem that the outside World understands and recognises as New Zealand, hence in my opinion the top option is the only one, if not then dont change it all, and leave it as the flag that New Zealand sevice men served and died under.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 21:16

I'm not sure wars are what people want to remember, or they should then remember also the Maori wars. The commercial marketing perspective ought not to be the priority either.

The Maori people and their culture are the only thing that is distinctive about New Zealand, and the second flag not only reflects this but also incorporates what appears to be its main geographical feature - the ocean.

Personally I think New Zealand should go back to its Maori name, Aotearoa, as well, and also dump the monarch. That's just my opinion. It's not really for me to say.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby iul » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 21:35

didn't the maoris exterminate the most peaceful society on earth to take over NZ?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 22:23

No, that's just British propaganda. What you are probably referring to is the extermination of the Chatham Islanders, descendents of mainland Maori who, after centuries of isolation, had neglected the art of war. The British led the Maori right to them, the Maori duly exterminated them, and guess who took control of the islands. In this manner the British actually took control of most of New Zealand, providing various tribes with muskets to use against their enemies, then moving in on the empty land - often to the outrage of the victorious tribe, who then needed to be dealt with themselves. Divide and rule, it's called. The "great" chief Te Rauparaha, of the Ngati Toa tribe near Wellington, conquered much of NZ in this manner, and was even referred to as the "Napoleon of the South," but in the end he too was betrayed by the British. Te Rauparaha composes the Ka Mate haka (long used by the All Blacks), not as a challenge to battle, but as a celebration after escaping his enemy.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby iul » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 22:29

Hah. So the maoris have no fault for exterminating the peaceful people.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby NedRugby » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 22:44

At least its not the Americans fault this time.

I like the middle one. The black white and red seem to be Maori looking colours to me. And I think the silver fern is not just about rugby. It was first used by NZ soldiers in the Boer war according to Wikipedia. Although the NZRFU tried to trademark its use they were only partly successfull.

Silver fern on Wikipedia

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Thu, 30 Oct 2014, 23:03

So the maoris have no fault for exterminating the peaceful people.


Far from it, though it needs to be looked at in context. The Maori were a tribal people in a land scarce in natural food resources. Fighting for territory was therefore a part of their culture. Perhaps due to the lack of red meat protein, they had also resorted to cannibalism, and thus human sacrifice became integral to their religious beliefs. These traits were commonplace throughout the ancient world, and remain so today in some of the remaining stone-age communities. But this is not comparable to much more extensive slaughters committed by supposedly "civilized" European nations on colonial drives.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with the New Zealand flag and my comments it ought to reflect its indigenous culture, btw.

Ned, the Boer War was a shameful episode during which the British Empire introduced the cruel practice of concentration camps to the world. I don't think New Zealanders would want a flag in honor of that. Also, the red, white and black flags don't appear to have anything to do with Maori culture to me.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 03:58

Rowan wrote:I'm not sure wars are what people want to remember, or they should then remember also the Maori wars. The commercial marketing perspective ought not to be the priority either.

The Maori people and their culture are the only thing that is distinctive about New Zealand, and the second flag not only reflects this but also incorporates what appears to be its main geographical feature - the ocean.

Personally I think New Zealand should go back to its Maori name, Aotearoa, as well, and also dump the monarch. That's just my opinion. It's not really for me to say.



Rowan if you dont grasp the connection between the military and flags then I really dont think you are in any position to be telling citizens of any country what they should do in terms of flag selection. many New Zealand soldiers (both Pakeha and Maori) have died overseas serving in hostilities under the current flag. But heres a little lesson, its not about remembering the Wars, its about remembering those that have made the ultimate sacrifice.

Lest we forget.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 06:20

Ned, the Boer War was a shameful episode during which the British Empire introduced the cruel practice of concentration camps to the world. I don't think New Zealanders would want a flag in honor of that. Also, the red, white and black flags don't appear to have anything to do with Maori culture to me.


I wasnt suggesting using it as an illustration of the Boer war, just to show that it has been used as a NZ symbol for more than 100 years for more things than rugby.

I am surprised that you dont see any thing red white and black as traditional maori colours. Try a Google image search on kowhaiwhai.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 09:30

Rowan if you dont grasp the connection between the military and flags then I really dont think you are in any position to be telling citizens of any country what they should do in terms of flag selection. many New Zealand soldiers (both Pakeha and Maori) have died overseas serving in hostilities under the current flag. But heres a little lesson, its not about remembering the Wars, its about remembering those that have made the ultimate sacrifice.



Calm down. I have gone out of my way NOT to tell anyone what they should do in terms of flag selection, in case you haven't noticed. Scroll back and you'll see my recommendation it be placed in the hands of hte Maori community. Yes, many flags, including the one that appears in my avatar, are designed in remembrance of fallen soldiers. If New Zealand wants to follow that trend, so be it. Personally I'd rather see something representative of the indigenous community, the only distinctive feature New Zealand society has, which is why I prefer the second example. That's just my opinion. It's certainly not for me to decide.

I wasnt suggesting using it as an illustration of the Boer war, just to show that it has been used as a NZ symbol for more than 100 years for more things than rugby.

I am surprised that you dont see any thing red white and black as traditional maori colours. Try a Google image search on kowhaiwhai.


On the first point, Ned, thanks for clarifying. I might have taken that slightly out of context. Still, I'm not a fan of adopting what is basically perceived as the All Blacks' motif (despite its Boer War history) as the national flag. Regarding the red white and black flag, it's the design I'm talking about, not the colours, and straight lines, red stars and a silver fern were not features of traditional Maori art. As far as kowhaiwhai art goes, thanks for bringing it up. Something like that would be ideal for a future New Zealand flag, IMHO. 8-)
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sat, 01 Nov 2014, 07:35

The Maori sovereignty flag :thumbup: 8-)

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Sables4EVA » Sat, 01 Nov 2014, 19:58

But New Zealand is not just Maori.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sat, 01 Nov 2014, 20:49

Sure, I wasn't recommending this one, just presenting a typical Maori design.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Sables4EVA » Sun, 02 Nov 2014, 05:41

How about the Maori flag in the place of the Union Jack in the present flag.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sun, 02 Nov 2014, 08:38

Sables4EVA wrote:How about the Maori flag in the place of the Union Jack in the present flag.


Works for me :thumbup:
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Adamstown 7's » Mon, 03 Nov 2014, 11:40

Anything that doesnt have that terrible Union Jack on it would be an improvement in my opinion.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Mon, 03 Nov 2014, 11:55

Adamstown 7's wrote:Anything that doesnt have that terrible Union Jack on it would be an improvement in my opinion.


:thumbup:

Don't think the colours mean much to New Zealanders either. The Southern Cross is about the only feature I'd stick with 8-)
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby jonny24 » Mon, 05 Jan 2015, 22:54

I like the one below the stripe, with the fern dividing the flag. Very distinctive, it still has the southern cross on blue, the top corner is still higjlighted, and the absence of black means it's not too All-blacks. I actually think it's a beautiful flag.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Mon, 05 Jan 2015, 23:13

I agree that it's a nice flag. But why red, white and blue. That's very cliche and means nothing to New Zealanders. I think a silver fern and stars on a black background (the night sky) would work just fine. Alternatively a green fern, which is also more realistic.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby jonny24 » Tue, 06 Jan 2015, 22:48

White corner, green fern, blue background would look pretty good.

Either way, join the "flag with a leaf" club!
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Mon, 06 Apr 2015, 05:52

Exactly johnny. I love the fact Canada chose a flag that is very distinctive and is known all around the world. My late grandfather fought in WW2 and I don't know if he really cared about the colour of the flag etc he fought under. I think he was fighting for bigger reasons. Canadian soldiers in both world wars fought under the old imperial flag with union jack but that didn't stop Canada changing it's flag and didn't mean it's soldiers were disrespected. I'm sure Canadians of today have as much respect for the sacrifices made by their soldiers under the previous flag as NZers for soldiers that fought under our current flag. I am in favour of changing because I do not think the current flag represents where NZ is as a country now. We are not the country we were in 1914 or 1940. I'm sorry but I think it's a tenuous argument to link respect of the flag to the sacrifice made by soldiers in past wars. I will be transparent and honest and say even as a member of the pakeha majority I have never liked the current NZ flag and its association to the UK (I am of English stock). I guess I've never been particularly enamoured that one family who are just other homo sapiens like you and me somehow are considered special and have special privilege. It angers me also that despite NZers and Aussies being used as cannon-fodder in Greece and Crete where we had no chance of winning in WW2, the UK govt these days is stressing it's relationship with other parts of the globe and in contrast is forever trying to cut any privileges NZers and Australians once had despite the blood they spilt in helping the UK. Then you see people from countries with far more tenuous links to the UK than many Kiwis and Aussies getting an easy ride into the UK. As far as I'm concerned the sooner we get the union jack off our flag the better! I want to see a NZ that is confident in its own skin to choose it's own flag like Canadians did that reflects its independence and growing maturity as a country in its own right. Yes, spoken like a true left-wing republican and nationalist! :lol:

I'd be happy with any of 1-3 as they are distinctive, original and like the Canadian flag will be well recognised around the world. I've always preferred the silver fern to the NZ flag. To me it has always represented NZ far more than the official flag. Some NZers say that black has a negative connotation in other countries but I really couldn't give a toss whether it does or not. To me it means strength, power, and beauty. To me it says even as a small country to stand tall and proud. It's inspirational. The current flag in contrast doesn't inspire me at all. Just my personal view.

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