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New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sun, 06 Sep 2015, 17:55

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Yes, that flag you mention is gaining currency. There's an article about it in the Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/s ... are_btn_fb Not a fan myself though. Why red, white & blue? It just looks like a warped version of the French flag to me :thumbdown:

I'm a little surprised by the final selection, and I'm not a fan of the silver fern either. Basically it's the rugby team's emblem and, sorry folks, there is more to life than rugby :twisted: I favored the koru designs because this also incorporates Maori culture, something I personally consider vital. But the black and white color scheme leaves me cold for the same reason the fern designs do. :thumbdown:
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Mon, 07 Sep 2015, 08:22

thatrugbyguy wrote:I was speaking to a designer friend of mine about the flag situation today and basically his expert opinion was all the options the Kiwi people were presented with were terrible and the fact no designers were in the selection committee was appalling. He showed me one of the rejected options that was triangular shaped option with red, black blue and white that seems to be getting some buzz (I think it was called 'Red Peak' or something) and whilst I didn't initially think it was that interesting he broke it down for me as to why it was the best design, and the more I looked at it, especially when you compare it to other flags of the world, the look grew on me. Once you saw it next to the likes of the US, French, German flag, etc it became very apparent it was a completely unique design. Maybe overly simple for my tastes but I could see his point. I get the fern is a symbol for NZ and all, but from an Aussies perspective at least it's always going to be synonymous with the All Blacks above the everything about NZ, and I don't know if it's a wise move to have a national flag tied so closely to a sports team, so maybe something clean and different would be the best option.


Thats a good point about there being no Graphic/product designer on the panel, its been likened here to imagining you were going to convene a panel to pick 4 finalists in a possible exercise to change the National Anthem, and not having a musician on the panel.

The "red peak' think will not go far its just an exercise by Aaron Dustin trying to get some credibility because his design didnt get selected, that would have really got his nose out of joint.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 07 Sep 2015, 10:12

Ultimately I understand why you guys want to change your flag, it really is virtually identical to ours. It does seem very odd that no-one with a design background would be part of the selection committee. It's almost like the politicians already knew ahead of time any well respected designer would advocate avoiding the fern as a symbol and so purposely avoided getting an expert in to voice his or her opinion. Given 3/4 of the design have ferns on them, 2 of the identical except for colour changes, it almost feels like the people in charge made up their minds ahead of time about what they wanted. Strange that such an important change to the image of the country didn't involve the top designers of the country being asked to contribute.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sun, 13 Sep 2015, 02:00

Just thought Id share with you a recent article pertaining to the "Red Peak" design.
have a read:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11512358

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sun, 13 Sep 2015, 17:36

Hopefully that's put paid to that silly idea then...
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Muzzy » Sun, 13 Sep 2015, 23:01

AUCKLANDREUNION wrote:Just thought Id share with you a recent article pertaining to the "Red Peak" design.
have a read:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11512358


Haha I've seen people saying they prefer this because it "looks like a flag", in other words it looks like other flags. People hate change, I must be one of the few kiwi's who want a new flag. I think when it changes people won't even care anymore. I don't understand the criticism that the fern is used on products and sports teams therefore it shouldn't be on a flag. You see the union jack on all kinds of cheesy products yet they want to keep the union jack?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 26 Sep 2015, 06:55

I think the argument is symbolism doesn't have to be so literal in its interpretation. There's nothing that symbolises Australia more than a Kangaroo but if we were to change our flag the idea of having a kangaroo as a design element on the flag doesn't really sit well with me, it's such a literal example of what represents our country. But it's all academic now, apparently the NZ government has relented and the 'Red Peak' design is now in the running, lol.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sun, 22 Nov 2015, 03:33

I did my postal vote today, voted for the Koru, not because I would like it as a flag, but merely to make the statment as to how pathetic the others are.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sun, 22 Nov 2015, 10:47

AUCKLANDREUNION wrote:I did my postal vote today, voted for the Koru, not because I would like it as a flag, but merely to make the statment as to how pathetic the others are.


For once we agree! :lol: But I personally support the Koru because it brings an element of native culture to the national flag.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Wed, 09 Dec 2015, 09:04

I also chose the Koru. Simple and powerful and easily recognisable. I don't know what's with the Red Peak option being popular. personally I hate the design though it was interesting to read it has strong Maori ideals behind which is good. I just want the Silver Fern (and not that disappointment of an ugly adaption - who the f**k chose that to be in the five options?!!) for again the same reasons I chose the Koru, and the added fact it has been our flag of support for international competition which probably means I'll vote for the current flag even though I'd love to change it...the way this flag debate has been framed and organised by our piece of sh** PM John Key has really irritated and frustrated me.

Lastly, Rowan. You are wrong to say that the silver fern is a rugby flag. The silver fern has been worn by NZ athletes and (more particularly Olympic and CWG athletes) over many, many sports and for many years (Jack Lovelock at Berlin 1936 instantly came to mind when I read your post). I think almost every NZ sports team has the silver fern emblazoned bar the Kiwis RL team and if my memory is correct they have had that as part of their crest in recent history as well. Go to ANY NZ international sports team match and you will see most people waving the silver fern flag, not just at rugby matches!

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Wed, 09 Dec 2015, 09:08

Muzzy wrote:
AUCKLANDREUNION wrote:Just thought Id share with you a recent article pertaining to the "Red Peak" design.
have a read:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... d=11512358


Haha I've seen people saying they prefer this because it "looks like a flag", in other words it looks like other flags. People hate change, I must be one of the few kiwi's who want a new flag. I think when it changes people won't even care anymore. I don't understand the criticism that the fern is used on products and sports teams therefore it shouldn't be on a flag. You see the union jack on all kinds of cheesy products yet they want to keep the union jack?


Yeah I totally couldn't understand that reasoning against the Silver Fern. So it's used in business and by sports teams. So friggin' what??!!! But given the fact that if you listen to talkback radio for even a short amount of time it's easy to discern there's a number of mentally retarded people in this country I'm not surprised that kind of a completely stupid argument without any basis came up! :lol:

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Thu, 10 Dec 2015, 01:39

YamahaKiwi wrote:I also chose the Koru. Simple and powerful and easily recognisable. I don't know what's with the Red Peak option being popular. personally I hate the design though it was interesting to read it has strong Maori ideals behind which is good. I just want the Silver Fern (and not that disappointment of an ugly adaption - who the f**k chose that to be in the five options?!!) for again the same reasons I chose the Koru, and the added fact it has been our flag of support for international competition which probably means I'll vote for the current flag even though I'd love to change it...the way this flag debate has been framed and organised by our piece of sh** PM John Key has really irritated and frustrated me.

Lastly, Rowan. You are wrong to say that the silver fern is a rugby flag. The silver fern has been worn by NZ athletes and (more particularly Olympic and CWG athletes) over many, many sports and for many years (Jack Lovelock at Berlin 1936 instantly came to mind when I read your post). I think almost every NZ sports team has the silver fern emblazoned bar the Kiwis RL team and if my memory is correct they have had that as part of their crest in recent history as well. Go to ANY NZ international sports team match and you will see most people waving the silver fern flag, not just at rugby matches!


BTW I shouldn't just be giving Rowan a hard time about the Silver Fern not being a rugby flag. TRG also mentioned that on the last page. Cobber, aint you been watching the CWGs, cricket tests etc etc ? And even AKLReunion to his shame (Yeah at least Rowan and TRG are not Kiwis so kinda have an excuse) said the Silver fern flag was an rugby one. BOLLOCKS BRO! Honestly do you not watch the cricket? Do you not watch the CWG and Olympics? Have you never watched a Silver fern's netball game? Have you never seen our rowers or triathletes at a world champs wearing black with the silver fern logo and on the podium with a Silver fern flag draped over their shoulders? Or the Tall Blacks? Tell me exactly how many NZ sports teams aren't decked out in black with the silver fern and then tell me again that emblem is a rugby one. Even the All whites have the logo and sometimes play in black!

Calling the Silver fern a rugby flag shows an ignorance of those athletes and quite frankly is hugely disrespectful to all the athletes that have proudly worn that uniform with that logo over many years and the fantastic achievements they have often made. As Rowan said there's more to life than rugby, and I've said on other threads there's more (these days especially) to NZ than rugby. And there's more to the Silver fern logo than the f**king rugby!I love rugby but I'm well aware there are whole bunch of people in NZ for whom the silver fern and black uniform has a huge significance that has nothing to do with rugby. To say the Silver fern flag is a rugby flag hugely denigrates the significance the Silver Fern flag has to those NZers. Quite frankly you owe all those people, athletes, admins, and fans an apology.

Honestly, Shame on you bro, shame on you! You of all people should know better! :evil:

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Thu, 10 Dec 2015, 10:04

No need to be so precious, Yamaha. If you showed the silver fern on a black background flag to people in a word association test, the first thing that would come out of most of their mouths would be 'rugby.' We're all fully cognizant of its significance to other sports and aspects of New Zealand society, but first and foremost it represents rugby for most of us, and that owes to the All Blacks' success. This is not a denigration of any other team or athlete, though perhaps an indication of New Zealand's relative insignificance to the wider international community.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 10 Dec 2015, 11:42

I'm in agreement with Rowan here. From an outsiders perspective, silver fern + black background = All Blacks. I get the appeal from a Kiwis perspective, but to me it would be like us changing our flag to a gold field with a green wallaby on it. I think the biggest issue with changing the Kiwi flag is that it appears to have been skewed heavily in favour of one design direction and one design direction only, 2 of the designs are identical in all but colour and 4 of the 5 contain ferns. The only one that differs is the only one that actually looks like a flag. From what I've read no designers or vexillologists were part of the selection committee which tells me the process from the beginning has been skewed in favour of a silver fern, and that's not what the process should be about. The nations top designers and vexillologists should have been the ones involved from the start and should have been the ones to decide the finalists based on their knowledge of design principles, but I get the feeling had that been done the silver fern would not have been a design element they would have chosen and the politicians knew it.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Fri, 11 Dec 2015, 08:41

Not bad, and certainly an improvement on the Union Jack detail . . .

Image

I wonder if it would lead to New Zealand sports teams wearing black & blue, or perhaps blue as an alternative strip :geek:

The black, white and blue silver fern flag has come out on top in the first flag referendum - but only just.

The flag, designed by Kyle Lockwood, won in the fourth round of voting according to preliminary results, taking 50.53 per cent of the vote, the Electoral Commission announced tonight.

In second place was Mr Lockwood's other flag, Silver Fern (Red, White and Blue), which polled 49.47 per cent.

How did NZ vote? Check out our interactive below to find out

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic ... NZH_FBpage
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 12 Dec 2015, 09:56

Well from an outsider's perspective maybe you see it as a rugby flag but it most definitely isn't. If as outsiders you learn one thing from this debate, it is that this flag is no way a rugby flag even if you've seen it from your own personal experience closely associated with NZ rugby. If it was purely a rugby flag I certainly wouldn't be supporting it as an official NZ flag. The fact it has been used so universally and broadly by almost every single team and for such a long time is one of the key reasons I support it becoming our official national flag. I understand where you're coming from re the boxing kangaroo or wallaby supporter flags but the silver fern is a completely different type of design. Those are obviously fan flags whereas the silver fern is of a design and style that would also merit it being the official flag of a country.

Anyway, shame, the Koru actually came last and that's probably a reflection that it is the most indegenous-styled flag (Rowan, i'm sure you'll say you're not surprised) of the ones that were up for election whereas I'm sure many Pakeha NZ probably went for something similar to what they already know. But mashing the silver fern flag and part of the current flag just looks like a mash-up. It doesn't even look as though it's a flag that has been designed, just one that's been thrown together, which it is! The current one is too busy and the challenger is no improvemnt on that aspect. Simple yet powerful is the kind of design that is striking and stands out to me hence why I'm in favour of the silver fern or koru. Suspect I will be voting for the current flag as much as I dislike it. This has been one heck of a poor referendum (yeah there's been plenty of criticism earlier on about the decision group not including any flag or design experts). I only hope next time the silver fern (the original version) is one of the final options.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sat, 12 Dec 2015, 18:57

Yamaha Kiwi,

The reason I refer to the Silver fern on a black background as a "rugby flag" is because the design is a registered trade mark held by the New Zealand Rugby Union, and has been since 1991.

I have a feeling that when John key started this whole thing off that the "rugby Flag" was his preference, and he was unaware that it was trademarked, but the NZRU was well ahead of the game, for the Government to now use that as a flag they have to have the consent of New Zealand Rugby and that just aint going to happen.

Perhaps this is an example of our politicians being about a quarter of a century behind our Rugby fraternity.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sat, 12 Dec 2015, 20:23

The NZRU had a unique silver fern designed precisely because they were unable to trademark the standard fern - probably due to the fact it was already widely used outside of rugby. Exactly a decade ago the NZRFU's 4-year-long legal case for intellectual property rights was thrown out, the main opposition coming from clothing manufacturers who claimed the fern belonged to all New Zealanders. Therefore New Zealand ought to be able to adopt any variety of fern it wishes for the flag - except for the stylised 'NZRFU fern.' I may be mistaken, but I believe the NZRU had its own 'All Blacks haka' composed for the same reason.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Wed, 16 Dec 2015, 08:36

Whoops...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/75154687/New-Zealand-table-tennis-team-playing-under-beaten-flag-design-after-internet-mix-up

Image

Only in India! Spot the imposter :lol:
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BTW this was a Commonwealth champs so I believe there's a couple of larger Commonwealth countries that look like they're missing! Unless Australia and Canada have decided they've had it with that group of nations.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Wed, 16 Dec 2015, 08:42

And this article shows how the black and blue flag won over its red and blue rival through the preferential voting system after the red and blue actually picked up more first pick votes in the first round...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75035116/how-did-the-second-most-preferred-first-pick-win-the-referendum

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby pr9rizh » Sat, 16 Jan 2016, 03:33

This flag have to change, and the rest of the world could know the difference of australian flag and new zealander flag

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Fri, 22 Jan 2016, 00:23

This flag have to change, and the rest of the world could know the difference of australian flag and new zealander flag


:thumbup:
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Ser Podrick of Payne » Thu, 24 Mar 2016, 08:36

New Zealanders have voted to keep their existing flag after a national referendum, preliminary results show.

The referendum asked whether the flag which includes the Union Jack should be replaced by a design called Silver Fern, which won an earlier ballot.
The results show 56.6% voted for no change, while 43.1% opted for the new design. Just over 2.1m votes were cast.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35888474

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 27 Mar 2016, 10:13

So the current flag is retained. But 56% isn't exactly a huge whitewash by any standards, especially considering a lot of people who might've voted for a new flag, under a referendum that had been better framed and wasn't a political exercise, and with a truly inspirational new option, either ended up voting for the current one, making a protest vote by ruining their voting form (I did this crossing out both options), or not voting altogether. I bet if there had been a third option in the voting paper of neither, then quite a lot of people who voted for the old flag, did as i did or didn't vote, would've chosen that third option and I'm confident that the current flag would've been below the 50% mark. So despite it's win, I don't think this referendum was a ringing endorsement of the current flag at all.

As I had told Rowan, this wasn't a referendum that was majorly pushed by Maori. This was shown in the fact that the Maori electorates showed some of the highest support for the current flag of any of the electorates.

Political columnist Toby Manhire did a column for the Guardian which I think summed up the result very well.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/24/new-zealand-flag-britain-status-quo

Also this quote from another Guardian article summed up my own feelings
“I’m all for change … as without change culture doesn’t grow,” said former New Zealand defence force artist and soldier Matt Gauldie, who voted not to change the current flag.“However … I didn’t like the design option. I didn’t feel it represented enough change to me … just a reshuffle of the status quo!


While I completely disagree with history professor Paul Moon's other comments I thought he was on the button with this:
“Entrusted with a once-in-a-lifetime task to select four alternative contenders for our national flag, the panel delivered options that were insipid and unimaginative. And to make matters worse, for all the talk of inclusivity, serious Indigenous input was largely whitewashed. What we were left with was culturally monochromatic and aesthetically neutered design to go up against the incumbent.”


Poor article by an expat English lady in NZ showing she has little insight into the country is living in. suspect she is teaching in one of the monocultural, mainly white schools rather than one of the many that have students from a wide range of cultures within each class.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-new-zealand-flag-vote-was-a-wasteful-vanity-project-by-john-key-a6950571.html

Lastly, I'd like to say that I was disappointed by the attitude of many people to the referendum, especially over the cost. i thought it showed a disappointing level of ignorance over how important the flag of a nation is. I think many NZers, especially those who haven't lived or traveled extensively overseas don't understand, that the national flag is the preeminent symbol of that country to the rest of the world. Therefore having a good solid debate over what it should be is not a wasteful exercise like quite a few NZers have said. Seeing that ignorance from my fellow countrymen and women, many of whom these days seem so wrapped up in their own little lives and barely aware of anything outside that, is painful.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 05 Apr 2016, 11:16

I guess the problem with a flag change is that normally a country changes its flag when its in some sort of major transition, a new flag can represent a rebirth as such. Perhaps most Kiwis simply didn't see any real justification for change when it wasn't needed because the country isn't really changing.

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