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New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby victorsra » Tue, 28 Jul 2015, 19:15

I vote for this one:

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Tue, 28 Jul 2015, 20:44

What's with the green 'beam?' Take that away and it might be half-decent.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby victorsra » Wed, 29 Jul 2015, 00:46

That's a joke flag. Kiwi with lasers :lol:
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Muzzy » Wed, 05 Aug 2015, 08:49

If we were to change our flag it should be black. Lets face it the black silver fern flag is the flag that identify's us more esp overseas. The southern cross is important too but I think the colour should be black. Its our distinct colour. Having so much red and blue next to each other like some of the ones on here just looks ugly. The blue and black also looks ugly. If we're gonna abandon the union jack then what do they think keeping the colours of it is important

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Wed, 05 Aug 2015, 11:39

Agreed, though that could be a bit boring on its own. I actually like the Tino Rangatiratanga best, personally - black and red (the Maori colors), divided by a white koru. Not sure we need the silver fern. That just makes it look too much like a sports flag. But the Southern Cross could be retained in the black half of the flag, which represents the night sky.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Wed, 05 Aug 2015, 21:09

Just to clarify some stuff about the Canadian flag, not everyone was happy with the flag change. My grandfather and great uncles fought in WWII and they were all royally pissed when the flag was changed. My grandfather still flies the Union Jack outside his property at the ripe old age of 93. There are a lot of Monarchists/loyalists in Canada and contrary to what's been stated here, many people in Canada were not happy we changed flags, particularly veterans.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Tue, 11 Aug 2015, 08:25

If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Petelo » Thu, 13 Aug 2015, 04:54

I always get New Zealand's flag mixed up with Australia's one. The kiwis need to differentiate themselves in the world just like what the south african and canadian flags do for their countries.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Thu, 13 Aug 2015, 06:37

Petelo wrote:I always get New Zealand's flag mixed up with Australia's one. The kiwis need to differentiate themselves in the world just like what the south african and canadian flags do for their countries.


:thumbup: Agreed. Probably the Aussies should get a new flag too, given it's a lot more multi-cultural than New Zealand.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 30 Aug 2015, 05:58

Rowan wrote:
Petelo wrote:I always get New Zealand's flag mixed up with Australia's one. The kiwis need to differentiate themselves in the world just like what the south african and canadian flags do for their countries.


:thumbup: Agreed. Probably the Aussies should get a new flag too, given it's a lot more multi-cultural than New Zealand.


And there you go again, just as Coloradoan said in another thread, talking crap about a place that is quite different to the one you lived in how many years ago? While Auckland doesn't equal NZ, maybe it's about time you visited these shores again mate. You might just be surprised how cosmopolitan Auckland in particular has become in the last 20-25 years. Koreans, Chinese (PRC and Taiwan), Indians (Fijian, South African, and Indian), heaps of South American students (esp Argentinian and Brazilians), decent number of Middle Eastern decent people, especially Iranian and Turkish (of course not on the same scale as Lebanese in Aussie), decent-sized Somalian refugee community etc etc. And that's beside the large South Pacific Island communities we have.

Maybe we don't have the big Greek, Italian, ex-Yugoslav or Vietnamese etc communities Aussie has but we have as above our own large immigrant communities. Having visited a heap of foreign cities in different parts of the globe in the last decade I actually think Auckland now holds it's own pretty well in the cosmopolitan and vibrancy stakes (come down to Wynyard Wharf on a Friday night in Summer). The city centre (and now other city hubs like New Lynn etc have undergone and continue to undergo a large transformation since 10-15 years ago and again I think you'd actually be pleasantly surprised at the amount of change that has happened and is signalled to happen within the next decade. Auckland, and the country is starting to grow up and find it's own voice. Come to my work Rowan, and I'll show you multi-cultural! It's like being at the UN! :lol:

You continue to cause offense by making factually incorrect and stereotypical statements about various countries and cultures. So sorry, as with others I have yet again just had to put you in your place. If you'd just said "And Australia should get a new flag too given it's become a lot more multi-cultural after WW2 ended" I wouldn't have had to reply. People may have disagreed with your view for some reason but at least that would be a valid debate within its own right rather than some throwaway one-liner that added nothing to the thread and debate.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sun, 30 Aug 2015, 07:26

Australia is more cosmopolitan than New Zealand. That is a fact. Below are the statistics from Wikipedia. Australia is approximately 50% British ancestry or British born. New Zealand is almost 70% British ancestry or British born. Insulting me, and quoting someone else who has stooped to juvenile insults on this forum, only detracts from your own credibility. I'm up for a debate any time, but there's really no need to behave like children. Here's a comparison of birth places for the two countries, just to provide an indication.

Australia

United Kingdom 1,221,300
New Zealand 617,000
People's Republic of China (Excluding SARs and Taiwan) 447,400
India 397,200
Philippines 225,100
Vietnam 223,200
Italy 201,800
South Africa 176,300
Malaysia 153,900
Germany 129,000
Greece 119,950
Sri Lanka 110,520
United States 104,080
South Korea 102,220
Hong Kong 94,420
Ireland 93,180
Lebanon 92,220
Netherlands 85,650
Indonesia 81,140
Singapore 70,100
Fiji 69,940
Croatia 65,420
Iraq 63,860
Thailand 61,910
Poland 56,360
Taiwan 55,960
Japan 54,830
Canada 50,940
Macedonia 50,610
Iran 50,370
Pakistan 49,770
Malta 45,920
Egypt 43,890
Turkey 40,660
France 39,950
Afghanistan 39,790
Bosnia and Herzegovina 38,930
Bangladesh 37,950
Zimbabwe 37,700
Nepal 36,940
Cambodia 35,000
Serbia 34,410
Papua New Guinea 33,100
Chile 29,760
Myanmar 29,300
Mauritius 27,140
Samoa 26,980
Russia 24,170
Sudan 23,090
Brazil 22,050
Hungary 21,700
Cyprus 20,780



New Zealand

2013 census[28]
Country Number %
New Zealand 2,980,827 74.85
United Kingdom[a] 256,164 6.43
China[b] 96,441 2.42
India 67,176 1.69
Australia 62,712 1.57
South Africa 54,279 1.36
Fiji 52,755 1.32
Samoa 50,658 1.27
Philippines 37,299 0.94
South Korea 26,604 0.67
Tonga 22,416 0.56
United States 21,462 0.54
Netherlands 19,815 0.50
Malaysia 16,353 0.41
Cook Islands 12,954 0.33
Germany 12,942 0.32
Japan 10,269 0.26
Other countries' 188,814 4.74
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sun, 30 Aug 2015, 07:33

Is there any move afoot to change Australia's flag? I'd be surprised, if not, given the above statistics and also that, unlike NZ, they're actually talking about dispensing with the British royal family. I guess the impetus for a new flag in NZ is coming from the Maori community, who constitute a substantial minority at 14%, whereas the Aborigine in Australia only constitute 3% of the national population and are basically unheard on political and social issues.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 30 Aug 2015, 09:37

You have my apologies Rowan. I noticed Auckland is at 56% which is at the Aussie level ;) . That has probably coloured my views (excuse the pun). I guess it also highlights that there is now a dichotomy in NZ between the large urban areas on one hand and the rural and smaller regional centers on the other. Also you'll notice the text highlights how a large percentage of the pakeha population is older than other ethnic groups. I suspect were the stats to be available for 45 and under the Pakeha % again would be signficantly less remembering that in the case of so-called developed countries the average of immigrants is usually lower due to the very type of people who are mainly immigrating (ie you don't see a huge amount of 70-80 year old immigrants!). Do notice that the wikipedia entry does describe NZ as a multi-cultural country :) TBH I'm a little surprised the Pakeha average is still as high as it is. I thought it would be barely 60% if that. The NZ Herald alsready came out in article a couple of years ago saying by current population and immigration trends Pakeha would be less than 50% by 2030. That's only fifteen years away. Yip I'll concede Australia is more but NZ is heading in the same direction and is at least in the major urban areas quite different compared to when you were here. It was 91% in 1961 and I still remember seeing it as 85% when I was at high school in the mid-late 80s. 85% down to 69% in less than thirty years is a pretty substantial change.

BTW, your table for NZ doesn't show overall ethnicity, it just shows where people were born. The number of people born in NZ does not equal the number of people who are pakeha, or rather as the text puts it identify themselves as Pakeha (The text also makes a point of highlighting the increasing number of mixed race people - my best friend's little girl is one example - and I suspect in the majority of mixed race cases these people identify with the majority ethnic group at the moment if they are part Pakeha, and the vast majority would be. See the pie graph which shows mixed race people are actually quite a large grouping themselves now). Please be careful with the evidence you intoduce to back up your side of the argument. I'm bowing to you on this one because of the stats from the 2013 census cited in the text, not because you pasted a table of incorrect info.

No, it's not being driven by Maori if the media coverage in NZ is to be believed (Well I'll put it this way, they haven't been conspicuous in the media coverage though that could be saying something of the NZ media! I should probably watch the Maori Channel more). The main leaders in the campaign SEEM to be independent, forward-looking Pakeha...and PM John Key, no doubt looking at it from a purely trade and biz point of view. I'm sure there is support from a broad base of NZ society from Pakeha, Maori, immigrants just as there is also opposition to change from different quarters. I might be wrong but I strongly suspect the for and against is not so much across ethnic lines but across lines of age (eg I'm sure I would be on the opposite side to my Anglophile dad for instance). My age and lower I suspect will show support for change while my parent's and grandparent generations will have majority support for no change..and at this time they probably hold the numbers. As I've said before there's a number of reasons people want the flag changed so different groups are supporting it for different reasons which probably is making for some strange bedfellows eg big biz and Maori groups. Interestingly there's been plenty of support both for and against from well-known NZ sportsmen and women in the media.

Also I think quite a lot of people who might support change in principle have been put off by the way the PM has conducted this exercise in his typical non-transparent way trying to present a fait accompli to the people of the country rather than just letting people decide themselves. I even registered my opposition to the PM's campaign via the Labour Party in NZ not because I'm against change but because I don't like the way it's been done and the debate's been handled. It's been typical of this current PM and his party to bulldoze through a number of bad laws that help the rich and make the poor poorer or do deals (eg Skycity convention centre) not in an above board way.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sun, 30 Aug 2015, 15:49

You have my apologies Rowan. I noticed Auckland is at 56% which is at the Aussie level


Apology accepted :thumbup: I was only a bit surprised because I thought I'd made a perfectly harmless comment there.

Yes, I've lived in Auckland too, three decades ago as a teenager, and seem to recall the local population being divided mostly into Pacific Islanders, Maori, Brits, South Islanders, and a few actual Aucklanders (Maori included, of course) :lol: But I also spent time in Christchurch immediately before that, and barely a non-white face was to be seen down that way. I guess all this pre-dated the Asian influx, though in Wellington there'd always been small but significant Indian and Chinese communities.

Getting a little off-track here, but if anyone's interested the largest ethnic group in America are Germanics - but even they are a minority.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Tue, 01 Sep 2015, 05:39

Final 4:

Most of my favorites gone, but at least none of these have the Union Jack

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby grande » Tue, 01 Sep 2015, 12:51

Out of those four, I like the two with the stars, personally. Blue & Black a bit more than blue & red, I think.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Tue, 01 Sep 2015, 15:29

Agreed. I prefer the koru to the fern but not with that color scheme. Should have been green, black and white. So, yes, it's got to be one of the two with the stars, and if they're going to stick with red, white and blue they might hardly bother changing the flag at all (although getting rid of the Union Jack is definitely a step forward). Btw, I believe this is just a 'fun' competition. I don't think the government has actually committed to changing the flag yet.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Wed, 02 Sep 2015, 06:38

Rowan, Its not a case of the Government being comitted or not, the Government cant be committed as you say until it has a mandate from the people. It is a far more serious issue and process than a "fun" competition. Grow up.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Wed, 02 Sep 2015, 07:42

AUCKLANDREUNION wrote:Rowan, Its not a case of the Government being comitted or not, the Government cant be committed as you say until it has a mandate from the people. It is a far more serious issue and process than a "fun" competition. Grow up.


Dear me, New Zealanders are nothing if not precious. Once again I made what appeared to be a perfectly harmless observation, only to find I had ruffled the feathers of another Kiwi who somehow perceived some devious intent behind my comments. :roll:

So has the government committed to a new flag, Aucklandreunion? Is so, I stand corrected. If not, I think my comment would have to be regarded as accurate. & why would anyone tear their hair out about this detail anyway? That's a pretty good definition of juvenile, right there.

Btw, a friend of my brother's took part in this competition - for "fun" - and made it right through to the last stage before the final 4 were selected. So the competition is for fun, whether you think so or not, though the changing of the flag is certainly a serious issue, and one I'm fully in favor of.
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Fri, 04 Sep 2015, 09:28

Jeez Rowan cant you read, as I said its not a case as to whether the Government is committed to changing the flag or not or not, do I have to write in braille? therefore your remark is not accurate.

Just because you and your brothers mate think this issue is just a "fun" competition dosent make it a fun competition. The consultation process including the inviting of suggestions from the public, a process which ids defined by statute and regulation, it May result in the changing of the flag it may not. as the due proces is inclusive of all stages. I fail to understand how you can decide that some part or parts of that process are for "fun" and then make a comment that the changing of the flag is a serious issue.

Its probably an issue that you need to be far less judgmental and offensive. by slating a nation of people as being precious is most definitely founded on "Devious intent".

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Fri, 04 Sep 2015, 18:05

Seriously, Aucklandrugbyunion, you need to take a xanax or two and chill out, dude. I mean, when was the last time you had a holiday? Hypertension is among the leading causes of death in the Western world, you know. Honest, we're just chatting on a rugby forum, not debating the issue at a United Nations Security Council crisis meeting. You've taken a few casual remarks out of context and behaved as if you'd uncovered a plot to blow up World Rugby headquarters in Dublin or something. Fact is, I don't actually care if the government is committed to it or not. At no point was this integral to my comments. & whether it's for fun or not depends on your perspective. My brother's friend certainly thought it was for fun. But it's hardly a life & death issue. The world won't end tomorrow because somebody said it was for fun but it wasn't. That's why I made the lighthearted comment about New Zealanders being 'precious.' Didn't the rolling eyes icon suggest to you it was tongue-in-cheek? No devious intent, no clandestine plots or conspiracies, no monsters lurking under the bed . . .
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sat, 05 Sep 2015, 07:43

Funny how you come on to this forum, and write as if you are some great authority on issues and when some one comes along and displays examples of your ignorance on the subject then you run for cover and try and change the subject and in engage in being abusive.

I dont take any notice of icons as I am more than 7 years old. if you wish making a statement then why not say what you mean and mean what you say? people may then give your comments some credibility,

On Sunday 30 August I got back from 3 weeks holiday in Tropical Rarotonga, mostly spending my days eating fresh fish from the Pacific, swimming in lagoons with tropical fish and coral, lying under coconut trees on beaches of white sand reading books under clear blue sunny skies, the mercury not going under 18 degrees in any 24 hour period, then in the after noon doing a patrol of other resorts "happy Hours' to enjoy a few cool beers and socialising with interesting people,then wandering back to the resort for meals and entertainment, and by the time one gets to bed one appreciates the benefits of enjoying time in Paradise. Life for me is grand, thank you for the concern for my mental wellbeing but its totally unnecessary, I probably live a better lifestyle than most.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby Rowan » Sat, 05 Sep 2015, 08:36

Funny how you come on to this forum, and write as if you are some great authority on issues and when some one comes along and displays examples of your ignorance on the subject then you run for cover and try and change the subject and in engage in being abusive.



An extremely ironic comment.

I dont take any notice of icons as I am more than 7 years old. if you wish making a statement then why not say what you mean and mean what you say? people may then give your comments some credibility,



The icons are there to indicate mood, which helps avoid misunderstandings. They are not there for infants, because presumably infants do not inhabit this forum. If you observed them, you might not take so many things out of proportion. I wonder, also, how you have come to the conclusion my comments aren't given any credibility. This requires divine insight. See my previous comment. Extremely ironic.

Glad you enjoyed your holiday. 8-) :thumbup: Heading off on my annual visit to the Greek Islands myself in a couple of days . . .
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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby AUCKLANDREUNION » Sat, 05 Sep 2015, 09:29

With the disappointing options available I'm personally rapidly heading in the direction of keeping the current flag and not making any change at all.

The four selected are all of fern designs, (not a kiwi in sight) but if we must have a fern on our flag then at least make it a silver fern, it is native of New Zealand, and widely used already as a symbol of New Zealand, The silver fern is engraved on the tombstones of all fallen New Zealand soldiers in commonwealth war graves, it appears on our coat 0f arms. The silver fern is waved by women to greet visitors on to the marae, and worn on the head at tangis.

When I say a silver fern, I dont mean a white fern, or a black fern, or a black and white fern,or a feather, and at least make it look like the silver fern. As in having branches, leaves and the little leaves.

If we are going to do it, then do it right. the four choices fail in this respect.

I would have liked the rugby flag (silver fern on black background) but that was never going to happen.

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Re: New Zealanders to vote on whether to change flag

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 06 Sep 2015, 11:26

I was speaking to a designer friend of mine about the flag situation today and basically his expert opinion was all the options the Kiwi people were presented with were terrible and the fact no designers were in the selection committee was appalling. He showed me one of the rejected options that was triangular shaped option with red, black blue and white that seems to be getting some buzz (I think it was called 'Red Peak' or something) and whilst I didn't initially think it was that interesting he broke it down for me as to why it was the best design, and the more I looked at it, especially when you compare it to other flags of the world, the look grew on me. Once you saw it next to the likes of the US, French, German flag, etc it became very apparent it was a completely unique design. Maybe overly simple for my tastes but I could see his point. I get the fern is a symbol for NZ and all, but from an Aussies perspective at least it's always going to be synonymous with the All Blacks above the everything about NZ, and I don't know if it's a wise move to have a national flag tied so closely to a sports team, so maybe something clean and different would be the best option.

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