Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Brexit

What would you vote?

I'd vote IN
14
67%
I'd vote OUT
5
24%
I don't know / care
2
10%
 
Total votes : 21
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Brexit

Postby iul » Mon, 25 Apr 2016, 13:12

The brexit referendum is getting closer and the outs are losing for now. What would you vote if you got a say in this matter and why?

For me it's a definite OUT. The EU was fine pre Lisbon, but this ever closer union bullshit is scaring the shit out of me. The layman's voice will greatly be reduced and we'll be at the mercy of the unelected EU Commission. That multiculturalism bullshit they so enthusiastically support is also something I am entirely opposed to, and by giving up our sovereignty completely we'd have no say on our immigration policy.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Bolaroid » Wed, 27 Apr 2016, 09:27

Out.

Why? because the only argument for staying in appears to be economic, and even that principally serves large multinational corporations and banks, not grass roots small businesses. It is also not entirely certain that Britain actually do benefit from the EU economically, there are arguments in both directions.

But what we do know, is that Britain giving up more and more control over their own country to Europe just to satisfy big business who lean on, and are the donors to the major political parties. None of it is right.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Hansgrohe » Sat, 30 Apr 2016, 22:38

Color me cynical but I have doubts on Germany's true intentions. It seems more and more likely they'll try to force Europe in their direction whether they like it or not. I've never trusted Merkel to be honest.

But the thing is, a weaker Europe could seriously affect the world in a negative way. In one way Britain could be stronger because they'll finally decide their own fate, but a weaker Europe could lead to outer, even worse forces (Trump, China, and Daesh) getting stronger.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Canalina » Sun, 01 May 2016, 07:51

In
I like a lot the idea of a common Europe and I trust in Merkel's lead. Maybe she and Germany are forcing the rest of the nations on the german way but I think they are doing it because they think it would be the best way for all and not (just) because they want to favorite their own businesses. I'm not aware of the details of the situation, maybe the actual Europe is really based just on economic criteria like many people say, but it would be very disappointing to abandon a great idea like that of a Europe with no borders or with light borders.
In my country the european union has became for part of the population the scapegoat for every problem. They are convinced that once the european union will be broke, the paradise will return in every nation…

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Sun, 01 May 2016, 07:53

Merkel invited millions of unintegratable people into the EU. What on earth makes you trust her lead?

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Re: Brexit

Postby Canalina » Sun, 01 May 2016, 08:45

I'm all but a fan of the immigration, I'd like to live in a place with very few people and many forests. That said, I think we can't solve the problem of refugees just saying "here there's no room, stay far". If you accept them all or a big part of them you will probably create many problems here in Europe (criminality, islamic fanatism, overpopulation, pollution caused by the increasing of the population…) but you can't easily leave them wandering in mediterranean sea or in north Africa.
Merkel opted for an hospitality mood; I think the the most of european people is against this policy so we can say that Merkel's choice is wrong but we can't accuse her to have been cynical and double-minded

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Re: Brexit

Postby YamahaKiwi » Tue, 03 May 2016, 11:21

I voted in but hesitantly (and what the heck do my views count as I'm not even a citizen in the European continent!). There are good pros and good cons. From a personal perspective I like that people can easily travel between countries with the minimum of fuss and even use the same currency that I have experienced myself a number of times in the last few year years. Of course UK was never part of the Eurozone or Schengen. I completely understand the issue of sovereignty. NZ has been asked by Australia a couple of times if we would like to join its federation but the thought of just effectively becoming another Australian State and handing over our sovereignty to the Australian Federal Govt is as about as popular as a lead balloon!

I think a good reason why Euro-sceptic politicians did well in the last European parliament elections is because that Parliament and the EU had overstepped its bounds creating a lot of anger. I mean when I was in Slovenia I heard that when that country became an EU member the EU told it how the traditional meat drying and curing process needed to be altered to meet EU conditions despite the locals having ample experience of doing it their way! Therefore while I would be voting IN if eligible I would also be looking for some reform from the EU side that will show a greater respect for individual nations' sovereignty. And I think that's what made things worse - A lack of remorse and acceptance from the EU that they've overstepped their bounds.

Have to say I disagree with Iul when it comes to multi-culturalism (from another thread that talked about Auckland he probably already gathered that). I've always been interested in different cultures, languages, history etc but maybe that's because I'm a white NZer stuck at the bottom of the world! I guess Iul we won't be seeing you in Japan in 2019 huh?

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Tue, 03 May 2016, 11:41

What does multiculturalism have to do with having an interest in other cultures? It doesn't have any. Multiculturalism means invading your own country with people with a different culture and ending up with multiple cultures within the same territory. Western Europe has been at it for decades now and it is an abject failure that only creates conflict.

The obsession western leftists have with invading their countries with Muslims is weird, but the weirdest part of all is that western feminists are so in favor of bringing in an ultra conservative population that's used to treat women like shit.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 03 May 2016, 15:20

iul wrote:What does multiculturalism have to do with having an interest in other cultures? It doesn't have any. Multiculturalism means invading your own country with people with a different culture and ending up with multiple cultures within the same territory. Western Europe has been at it for decades now and it is an abject failure that only creates conflict.

The obsession western leftists have with invading their countries with Muslims is weird, but the weirdest part of all is that western feminists are so in favor of bringing in an ultra conservative population that's used to treat women like shit.


America has had immigration from a variety of cultures for a long time with plenty of success. The key is to get the amount right and to have pressure to assimilate. You run into problems when you bring in too many of one group at once and you don't pressure to assimilate, allowing parallel societies. The latter seems to be a problem in many places these days, even in the US, as politicians pander for votes.

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Tue, 03 May 2016, 15:39

The US has always been a melting pot, not multicultural.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 03 May 2016, 18:34

iul wrote:The US has always been a melting pot, not multicultural.


...because of strong pressure to assimilate.

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Tue, 03 May 2016, 18:43

Yes, and because the population was created that way from the beginning, and they faced an existential threat from the natives for quite a lot of time, which caused the immigrants to band together regardless of their nationality, culture, etc.. in the face of a threat. Assimilating different people into a pretty homogenous population is a whole different thing.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 03 May 2016, 19:31

iul wrote:Yes, and because the population was created that way from the beginning, and they faced an existential threat from the natives for quite a lot of time, which caused the immigrants to band together regardless of their nationality, culture, etc.. in the face of a threat. Assimilating different people into a pretty homogenous population is a whole different thing.


That's not really true. 80% of non-slaves in America at the time of the Revolutionary War were of British descent.

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Tue, 03 May 2016, 19:43

20% of non British descent is a lot, and the Irish might be included in the 80% as well.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 04 May 2016, 03:01

iul wrote:20% of non British descent is a lot, and the Irish might be included in the 80% as well.


According to Wikipedia, Romania was only 70% ethnic Romanian in 1930, so I guess Romania historically doesn't meet your criteria either...

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Wed, 04 May 2016, 04:31

Which worked so well we went ahead and murdered quite a few of the non Romanians. We're now close to 90% of the population and we still have a hard time getting along with the two largest minorities. Multiculturalism is an abject failure.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Hansgrohe » Wed, 04 May 2016, 06:28

I find Europeans to be funny when it comes to issues on multiculturalism and integration. In Mexico it's the exact opposite; it's considered very unpatriotic here to not assimilate. Actually we embraced both African slaves and Chinese/Japanese migrants to marry with other people, so you see many different colors working here. That doesn't mean it's paradise here; we have issues with indigenous/blacks integrating, and their culture tends to be downplayed, but it's far more integrated than Europe (I'm of Spanish, French, and Lebanese descent myself). But then again, I didn't grow up in that kind of culture, so I can't really criticize.

But the refugee problem isn't exclusive to Europe; there's a fear here our borders could soon get flooded with Central Americans and Cubans (yay xenophobia) due to instability there, and our borders are piss poor if you've seen the movies about it. Of course, if Drumpf wins, the situation could turn catastrophic like in Turkey.

Regardless, the UK must stay in. If the UK leaves, I believe the Western powers will truly lose control of the world. Drumpf is inching slowly to victory and China is winning in Africa and they even they took control of Ecuador. A fear is that if we're forced to build a wall, our economy will crash and China will even strengthen further in Latin America. I don't mean to come off as a conspiracy theorist but the cynicism is perhaps as strong as I've seen it.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 05 May 2016, 00:24

iul wrote:Which worked so well we went ahead and murdered quite a few of the non Romanians. We're now close to 90% of the population and we still have a hard time getting along with the two largest minorities. Multiculturalism is an abject failure.


If that's the case, then why didn't that happen in the US, which was even more homogenous at one point? The difference is in the attitude.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 05 May 2016, 00:28

Hansgrohe wrote:I find Europeans to be funny when it comes to issues on multiculturalism and integration. In Mexico it's the exact opposite; it's considered very unpatriotic here to not assimilate. Actually we embraced both African slaves and Chinese/Japanese migrants to marry with other people, so you see many different colors working here. That doesn't mean it's paradise here; we have issues with indigenous/blacks integrating, and their culture tends to be downplayed, but it's far more integrated than Europe (I'm of Spanish, French, and Lebanese descent myself). But then again, I didn't grow up in that kind of culture, so I can't really criticize.

But the refugee problem isn't exclusive to Europe; there's a fear here our borders could soon get flooded with Central Americans and Cubans (yay xenophobia) due to instability there, and our borders are piss poor if you've seen the movies about it. Of course, if Drumpf wins, the situation could turn catastrophic like in Turkey.

Regardless, the UK must stay in. If the UK leaves, I believe the Western powers will truly lose control of the world. Drumpf is inching slowly to victory and China is winning in Africa and they even they took control of Ecuador. A fear is that if we're forced to build a wall, our economy will crash and China will even strengthen further in Latin America. I don't mean to come off as a conspiracy theorist but the cynicism is perhaps as strong as I've seen it.


Lebanese immigrants to Mexico are responsible for two of the greatest things in the world today: Salma Hayek and al pastor. :thumbup:

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Thu, 05 May 2016, 06:10

Coloradoan wrote:
iul wrote:Which worked so well we went ahead and murdered quite a few of the non Romanians. We're now close to 90% of the population and we still have a hard time getting along with the two largest minorities. Multiculturalism is an abject failure.


If that's the case, then why didn't that happen in the US, which was even more homogenous at one point? The difference is in the attitude.

Yes, you attitude was that if you come here you become one of us, which was helped by the existence of a common existential enemy. In Europe the attitude now is that we're supposed to adapt to the incomers and encourage them to keep their old ways. Multiculturalism is an abject failure.

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Re: Brexit

Postby grande » Thu, 05 May 2016, 15:20

Canada's doing just fine with multiculturalism.

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Thu, 05 May 2016, 15:22

Canada is a melting pot, not multicultural, well, except for the first nations maybe.

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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:07

Culture is a concept really complicated in social sciences. I really don't know what you believe to be multiculturalism. Is there a chart that says what is one country's "culture" and what is not?

But more than anything, this 19th century idea of "Nations state" is what went really wrong in the 20th and 21st centuries. Many people in Europe (n fact, people everywhre, but in Europe it is strong) are attached to a fallacious idea that a country is made by "one people". Isn't Romania a "multicultural state" at the first place? Because apart from recent immigration you have Hungarian, Aromanian, and Roma that understand Romanian territory as their homeland too, isn't it?

And what about the countries like Spain, Portugal, France, England, Belgium, Netherlands, and to a minor extend Italy and Germany, that had colonies in the Americas, Asia, Oceania and Africa? The movement of people between those countries during and after independences isn't part of the formation of a "national" culture? As much as "culture" is not something pre-definied, it is something in constant transformation. Just look at how much European societies changed in the last century in every aspect, from food habits to religion, from sex to politics.

I have serious problems with nationalism. Crudely, the French Revolution built the notions of nationality and citizenship, overlapping the monarchical logic of suzerainty. That's the 19th century biggest political "inovation". The 20th century showed us how dangerous nationalism is. The State is still a social contract and we should be working with the improve of citizenship relations, as in the individualistic 21st century people's problem is even more the hability in deal with the society.

About the Islam, what we are seeing is a huge struggle inside Islamic societies about everything. They are also with an explosive identity crisis that is blowing up in everybody's faces. But Western crisis always blowed up in everybody faces too throughout history.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:20

Loving your country and people is bad. Mkay. We must go back to the pre-nationalism era, because Europe was so peaceful back then. :roll:

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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:24

That's definitly not what I said. And the nature of the wars pre-19th century and after that are completely different. We must go forward, not backwards. Nationalism is backwards because it is based on the negative: it denies the "other". In a 8 billion people world this is not the best solution.
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