Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Brexit

What would you vote?

I'd vote IN
14
67%
I'd vote OUT
5
24%
I don't know / care
2
10%
 
Total votes : 21
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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:34

Nationalism is the way forward. Preserving our culture and way of life is the way forward. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and there's no reason whatsoever why we should seek to melt all the globe's population into this identityless mass of people. Whether the world has 8 billion or 0.5 billion people makes no difference.

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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:40

Then answer what I asked:

Culture is a concept really complicated in social sciences. I really don't know what you believe to be multiculturalism. Is there a chart that says what is one country's "culture" and what is not?


Isn't Romania a "multicultural state" at the first place? Because apart from recent immigration you have Hungarian, Aromanian, and Roma that understand Romanian territory as their homeland too, isn't it?


And what about the countries like Spain, Portugal, France, England, Belgium, Netherlands, and to a minor extend Italy and Germany, that had colonies in the Americas, Asia, Oceania and Africa? The movement of people between those countries during and after independences isn't part of the formation of a "national" culture?


And be careful to not go back to the 1930s in the answers...


Whether the world has 8 billion or 0.5 billion people makes no difference.

It makes. The is an increasing demographic pression in the planet. People are in constant movement and it will just get worse with all ecological, religious and political problems the world is facing. It isn't and it won't be just Syria.
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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:53

Oh, and one more. It wasn't a question, but it could be:

As much as "culture" is not something pre-definied, it is something in constant transformation. Just look at how much European societies changed in the last century in every aspect, from food habits to religion, from sex to politics.


So, what
Preserving our culture and way of life is the way forward
means?

I simply can't think and act different from the majority? Pitty, because I am an atheist in a mostly Christian country, for exemple. Luckly one day someone here put in the constitution "religious freedom". Wasn't him "betraying" our "way of life"? "Culture" and "way of life" are constantly changing thourgh history, my friend.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Thu, 05 May 2016, 22:56

victorsra wrote:Then answer what I asked:


Culture is a concept really complicated in social sciences. I really don't know what you believe to be multiculturalism. Is there a chart that says what is one country's "culture" and what is not?

Multiculturalism means having people of different cultures living in one country. It's true you can't measure culture with the same precision an interferometer measures distance, but you don't need to either, you can fairly easily distinguish cultures between them.

Isn't Romania a "multicultural state" at the first place? Because apart from recent immigration you have Hungarian, Aromanian, and Roma that understand Romanian territory as their homeland too, isn't it?

Yes, and it's an abject failure, which only creates conflict.

And what about the countries like Spain, Portugal, France, England, Belgium, Netherlands, and to a minor extend Italy and Germany, that had colonies in the Americas, Asia, Oceania and Africa? The movement of people between those countries during and after independences isn't part of the formation of a "national" culture?

Not really, immigration from the former colonies was mostly done along the multiculturalist line, not on the melting pot one, so no, they don't contribute to the formation of a national culture, they add other cultures living in the same country. And it's an abject failure, which only creates conflict.

victorsra wrote:And be careful to not go back to the 1930s in the answers...

This statement is ridiculous IMO.

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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:02

Yes, and it's an abject failure, which only creates conflict.


Isn't this ridicolous? What you want, to get rid of every non-"Romanian" in Romania? Including Roma and Hungarians? Aren't they part of Romania and acted in the build of Romania as a country and in its "national culture"? Can you define "Romanian"? Because I can't define "Brazilian".

It reminds me something, sorry. Looks like you believe in "purity".

Multiculturalism means having people of different cultures living in one country.

Really, again, what "culture" is??? You just said what "multi" is. A immutable thing???

Not really, immigration from the former colonies was mostly done along the multiculturalist line, not on the melting pot one, so no, they don't contribute to the formation of a national culture, they add other cultures living in the same country. And it's an abject failure, which only creates conflict.


Very narrow your understandment. You believe that people from the colonies contributed nothing to local life since they arrived? Do you believe Europeans that lived in the colonies returned the same, unchanged? What about people that have a father with one identity and a mother with another? What is this person, an abject? And he/she is not part of the society?

And the same thing in Romania. Aren't there Romanians that are mixed between Hungarians, Romas and whatever other identities with what you believe to be a PURE Romanian? Are they "a wrong thing"?
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:06

victorsra wrote:Oh, and one more. It wasn't a question, but it could be:

As much as "culture" is not something pre-definied, it is something in constant transformation. Just look at how much European societies changed in the last century in every aspect, from food habits to religion, from sex to politics.



victorsra wrote:So, what
Preserving our culture and way of life is the way forward
means?

I simply can't think and act different from the majority? Pitty, because I am an atheist in a mostly Christian country, for exemple. Luckly one day someone here put in the constitution "religious freedom". Wasn't him "betraying" our "way of life"? "Culture" and "way of life" are constantly changing thourgh history, my friend.

It means not letting your own culture be overrun or pressured by invading your own country with foreign cultures and letting your culture evolve naturally. Putting your country on the path to become a caliphate in a century or so is entirely unnatural, undesirable and irrational.

This idea that everything about invading our countries with people of different cultures will turn out OK because if we hate our own culture so will the invaders hate their own is naive and will be the death of European cultures if the peoples of Europe don't wake up already and put an end to this madness.

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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:21

It means not letting your own culture be overrun or pressured by invading your own country with foreign cultures and letting your culture evolve naturally. Putting your country on the path to become a caliphate in a century or so is entirely unnatural, undesirable and irrational.


What about the Romanians abroad? Aren't there thousands of Romanians living in other countries? So they are invading those countries with a "foreign culture" too?

Or you are afraid specificaly about Islamism? Do you want then to ban religious freedom? Or to say "this religion is bad, let's persecute them"? Then you tell me that talking about "1930s" is ridiculous :lol:

And you haven't wrote about the relation between Roma, Hungarians and abject multiculturalism.

Once they follow the principles of the constitution you have nothing to be afraid of. Unless you believe ALL muslims are cruel fanatics or some stereotype. I am not hypocritical. Of course many of them that are entering your country doesn't share democratic principles or don't believe in religious freedom. But probably many Romanians too. Like many Brazilians. What you are living not is a specific conjecture of humanitarian crisis. It needs more than empty ideas like "nation", "culture" and "way of life" to deal with it.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:22

victorsra wrote:
Yes, and it's an abject failure, which only creates conflict.


Isn't this ridicolous? What you want, to get rid of every non-"Romanian" in Romania? Including Roma and Hungarians? Aren't they part of Romania and acted in the build of Romania as a country and in its "national culture"? Can you define "Romanian"? Because I can't define "Brazilian".
Yes, you can easily distinguish a Romanian from a Hungarian or a Gypsy. Their presence here has only generated conflict.

victorsra wrote:It reminds me something, sorry. Looks like you believe in "purity".

I believe in homogenity is the best way to avoid conflict.

victorsra wrote:
Multiculturalism means having people of different cultures living in one country.

Really, again, what "culture" is??? You just said what "multi" is. A immutable thing???

This is what culture is:
A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.


Not really, immigration from the former colonies was mostly done along the multiculturalist line, not on the melting pot one, so no, they don't contribute to the formation of a national culture, they add other cultures living in the same country. And it's an abject failure, which only creates conflict.


victorsra wrote:Very narrow your understandment. You believe that people from the colonies contributed nothing to local life since they arrived? Do you believe Europeans that lived in the colonies returned the same, unchanged? What about people that have a father with one identity and a mother with another? What is this person, an abject? And he/she is not part of the society?

And the same thing in Romania. Aren't there Romanians that are mixed between Hungarians, Romas and whatever other identities with what you believe to be a PURE Romanian? Are they "a wrong thing"?
[/quote]
I'm not sure what you're objection is about. Immigrants from the colonies were not pressured to integrate into the larger culture like they are in the US, etc... they were encouraged to keep their culture.

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:25

victorsra wrote:
It means not letting your own culture be overrun or pressured by invading your own country with foreign cultures and letting your culture evolve naturally. Putting your country on the path to become a caliphate in a century or so is entirely unnatural, undesirable and irrational.


What about the Romanians abroad? Aren't there thousands of Romanians living in other countries? So they are invading those countries with a "foreign culture" too?

Yes.

victorsra wrote:Or you are afraid specificaly about Islamism? Do you want then to ban religious freedom? Or to say "this religion is bad, let's persecute them"? Then you tell me that talking about "1930s" is ridiculous :lol:

Yes, I want absolutely none of them to be imported here, and it's perfectly natural and reasonable to not accept populations that are a threat to yourself, your people and your culture.

victorsra wrote:Once they follow the principles of the constitution you have nothing to be afraid of. Unless you believe ALL muslims are cruel fanatics or some stereotype. I am not hypocritical. Of course many of them that are entering your country doesn't share democratic principles or don't believe in religious freedom. But probably many Romanians too. Like many Brazilians. What you are living not is a specific conjecture of humanitarian crisis. It needs more than empty ideas like "nation", "culture" and "way of life" to deal with it.

Nation, culture and way of life are the realities of our existence and they're something wonderful.

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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:28

I believe in homogenity is the best way to avoid conflict.


Really? Forcing everybody to have the same "way of life" and combat the difference is the way of avoid conflict? Isn't it a conflict from its begining? Like the same religion or something? "Pure"!

I'm not sure what you're objection is about. Immigrants from the colonies were not pressured to integrate into the larger culture like they are in the US, etc... they were encouraged to keep their culture.

I believe you haven't understood the dialectic relation between cultures. Specially the idea that between MIX and people INTERACT among each other and therefore culture is always changing because no culture is impermeable. The is NO culture that has ZERO foreign culture. Culture are forged in history by multiple influences. Multiculturalism intsled is a false idea. There isn't this thing. All cultures are "multi" because they are constantly changing.

You need first to clarify your idea about culture, mate. Trust me. It is not that simple.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:32

Nation, culture and way of life are the realities of our existence and they're something wonderful.

Do you live just like your father lived? He lived just like your grandfather and so on until we reach Ancient Dacia? Of course not.
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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 05 May 2016, 23:35

And sorry, but Romas are not Romanians in your belife? So you want them to go where? They can't live there or have rights? Just like the Jewish (and the same Romas) in Germany and elsewhere in Europe in the 1930s? That's it. It is REALLY simple to understand how many people were not opposed to some measures that time. Just say "your life is threatned by this or that population" and there you are. Simple minds, easy solutions.

I haven't said this:
Yes, you can easily distinguish a Romanian from a Hungarian or a Gypsy. Their presence here has only generated conflict.
I belieive you quoted wrongly.
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Re: Brexit

Postby Coloradoan » Fri, 06 May 2016, 14:34

iul wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
iul wrote:Which worked so well we went ahead and murdered quite a few of the non Romanians. We're now close to 90% of the population and we still have a hard time getting along with the two largest minorities. Multiculturalism is an abject failure.


If that's the case, then why didn't that happen in the US, which was even more homogenous at one point? The difference is in the attitude.

Yes, you attitude was that if you come here you become one of us, which was helped by the existence of a common existential enemy. In Europe the attitude now is that we're supposed to adapt to the incomers and encourage them to keep their old ways. Multiculturalism is an abject failure.


The Native Americans were not an existential threat by that time. I agree with you that having immigrants come and not be pressured to assimilate is a problem.

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Re: Brexit

Postby Coloradoan » Fri, 06 May 2016, 14:44

victorsra wrote:That's definitly not what I said. And the nature of the wars pre-19th century and after that are completely different. We must go forward, not backwards. Nationalism is backwards because it is based on the negative: it denies the "other". In a 8 billion people world this is not the best solution.


The problem is that humans are tribal by nature and as such there is a human need to belong to a group, whether that group is based on nationality, religion or something else (politics, sports, etc.). And by belonging to a group, there is always going to be the "other". Some forms of groups are more benign than others when it comes to the "other" and we can always try to take that group in a positive direction rather than a negative one, but even sports can have deadly consequences in regard to the "other".

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Re: Brexit

Postby josh » Sat, 07 May 2016, 22:06

You guys aren't talking about brexit. Anyway, I live in London. My neighbour on one side is Italian, on the other is Spanish, and my wife is French. At the local market I can get good food from all over the eu, and its all been quality tested at the source. My friend's band did a European tour with pretty smooth logistics. All that is pretty good, and I owe a lot of it to the uk being in the eu.

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Re: Brexit

Postby amz » Tue, 10 May 2016, 07:15

iul wrote:Nationalism is the way forward. Preserving our culture and way of life is the way forward. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and there's no reason whatsoever why we should seek to melt all the globe's population into this identityless mass of people. Whether the world has 8 billion or 0.5 billion people makes no difference.


Nationalism does not exists in 30s manner in Romania and it's very unlikely to happen. Romanian president is a German-Saxon ethnic which is also a Protestant Christian, two times a minority considering the voters were 80% Ethnic Romanians and Orthodox Christians. Nationalist like parties (most of them with subsidies from East) are like 1% in voters preference. It's very marginal. There are of course many broken Romanians as iul ;) but as political or social movement is close to 0%.

Romania does have a nice tradition in dealing with minorities; for example, when Dobrogea was taken from Ottoman Empire, one of the first act of Romanian government was to build a big mosque for new King's subject which were Turks and Tartars. Later on, Romania was a safe heaven for other peoples like Jews and Armenians. There were also problems with minorities like the fact that Romanian citizenship wasn't granted to Jews, Roma minority discrimination or Hungarians issues with communist regime (although is greatly exaggerated, it was a lot of press in Hungarian and ethnic Hungarians were at the top of Communist Party). But Romania dealt with this issue, sometimes not successful sometimes with more success. I think the rights that Hungarian minority have at this moment are a benchmark for other EU countries.

I also think that being able to deal with such issues is a sign of social soundness and these minorities enriched modern Romania...too bad that 30s and 40s come with all that madness and many left (especially Jews, Armenians or Germans).

Back to actual day issues, I don't think that 30s like extreme right wing parties (many of them subsidies from East, same as extreme left wing parties in EU) will ever come back as a sizeable phenomenon. Of course Merkel's policy to take as many immigrants as possible is inept and will be stopped. It shows EU as an space under siege and also shows lack of decision to deal with this issue directly. This is not a humanitarian aid it's just having as many tax payers as possible and the society simply can't chew such a big number of people with such a different values, mindset and culture, will create more problems and will bring instability.

What will probably appear as a mass phenomenon will be a political movement centered on preserving actual EU way (secularism, economical social-liberalism, civil rights) and repel excess like banning nativity scenes to not offend Muslims. I think this a challenge that EU have to pass it in order to prove that its project is viable. What EU is seriously missing is leadership, I am looking to EU political leaders and they're just weak, unable to have a vision toward the future. I read over these days one book about a visionary leader of Antiquity, Emperor Hadrian (by Marguerite Yourcenar) and there were some great ideas in his political work about such a big space working together, certainly something from which EU leaders may inspire.

Brexit will be a catastrophe for both UK and EU and will only weaken both sides.
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Re: Brexit

Postby victorsra » Thu, 12 May 2016, 05:24

Romania does have a nice tradition in dealing with minorities; for example, when Dobrogea was taken from Ottoman Empire, one of the first act of Romanian government was to build a big mosque for new King's subject which were Turks and Tartars. Later on, Romania was a safe heaven for other peoples like Jews and Armenians. There were also problems with minorities like the fact that Romanian citizenship wasn't granted to Jews, Roma minority discrimination or Hungarians issues with communist regime (although is greatly exaggerated, it was a lot of press in Hungarian and ethnic Hungarians were at the top of Communist Party). But Romania dealt with this issue, sometimes not successful sometimes with more success. I think the rights that Hungarian minority have at this moment are a benchmark for other EU countries.

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Re: Brexit

Postby amz » Fri, 24 Jun 2016, 08:20

Well, brace yourself :)

Image

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Fri, 24 Jun 2016, 08:44

I stayed up until 5 AM to see what was happening. Went to bed feeling uneasy, thinking they'll still blow it somehow by the time I wake up. Woke up after a few hours. They didn't blow it. I am genuinely happy about this. I hope all the countries will have such referendums in the near future. We deserve to choose our own paths instead of being led by lying politicians into this ever closer union.

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Re: Brexit

Postby amz » Fri, 24 Jun 2016, 09:18

Geez you're so easy to be influenced by cheesy propaganda :D

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Re: Brexit

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 24 Jun 2016, 09:30

iul wrote: We deserve to choose our own paths instead of being led by lying politicians into this ever closer union.



Well the Brits have been led by lying politicians out of the EU. Glad you're happy. And now our own xenophobe Geert Wilders is demanding a similar referendum.

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Re: Brexit

Postby amz » Fri, 24 Jun 2016, 09:38

NedRugby wrote:
iul wrote: We deserve to choose our own paths instead of being led by lying politicians into this ever closer union.

Well the Brits have been led by lying politicians out of the EU. Glad you're happy. And now our own xenophobe Geert Wilders is demanding a similar referendum.


iul is fooled by clowns like this pretty easy :D

iul, look what liar is one of the architects of this move:

"It is absolutely crazy that the EU is telling us what shape our bananas have got to be," says Brexit's foremost cheerleader, Boris Johnson. The former mayor of London, whose mop of blonde hair is as artfully tousled as his facts, was cannily invoking one of the oldest and most persistent mistruths about EU bureaucracy – that it has banned "bendy bananas" from being imported into the U.K.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/201 ... food-myths

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Fri, 24 Jun 2016, 10:46

NedRugby wrote:
iul wrote: We deserve to choose our own paths instead of being led by lying politicians into this ever closer union.



Well the Brits have been led by lying politicians out of the EU. Glad you're happy. And now our own xenophobe Geert Wilders is demanding a similar referendum.

Oh no, not wanting your country to be flooded by foreigners, specially Muslims, is such a terrible thing :roll:

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Re: Brexit

Postby iul » Fri, 24 Jun 2016, 10:49

amz wrote:
NedRugby wrote:
iul wrote: We deserve to choose our own paths instead of being led by lying politicians into this ever closer union.

Well the Brits have been led by lying politicians out of the EU. Glad you're happy. And now our own xenophobe Geert Wilders is demanding a similar referendum.


iul is fooled by clowns like this pretty easy :D

iul, look what liar is one of the architects of this move:

"It is absolutely crazy that the EU is telling us what shape our bananas have got to be," says Brexit's foremost cheerleader, Boris Johnson. The former mayor of London, whose mop of blonde hair is as artfully tousled as his facts, was cannily invoking one of the oldest and most persistent mistruths about EU bureaucracy – that it has banned "bendy bananas" from being imported into the U.K.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/201 ... food-myths

I want to live in a democracy, not in an undemocratic and antidemocratic EU superstate determined to break our national identities and an abject failure such as "multiculturalism". All multiculturalism does is create conflict.

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Re: Brexit

Postby amz » Fri, 24 Jun 2016, 12:40

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/busi ... 0624109795
;)

Brexit is the tale of a power hungry posh, falling into his very own trap in order to stay in Power, and two other power hungry rivals taking advantage of it to get to Power.

In both cases, they are fucking over the majority of British citizens for it, while they're oblivious to what's truly going on.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CltNYyKWAAANWMj.jpg:small

This is the thing that suprised me most, Wales especially voting to leave given it gets a hell of alot from the EU. This is why i expected the remain side to win, i didnt expect Wales east yorkshire to vote to leave in such numbers (i expected it from north because of multiple reasons, much of which come from "the eu needs you to do x, and it will protect you" then that industry collapsing :lol: and i dont mean coal).

And what is most interesting is that the Leave camp has no idea what to do next and how economy works..

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