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2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 11 May 2018, 02:45

If there's a bigger international program in between world cups then the classifications matches aren't a big loss. The only consistent women's program at the moment is in Europe. World Rugby needs to try and organise regular tests for the women's game. Sevens isn't enough, the girls need to game time between World Cups and at the moment they're not getting enough. The Wallaroos at least are playing the Black Ferns this years as curtain raisers to the Bledisloe Cup matches in Sydney and Auckland, which will be the first time in 9 years the Aussies have played a home test, so that's a start, but there needs to be at least 5 or 6 test matches a year for the teams.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby Thomas » Fri, 11 May 2018, 08:02

To put it bluntly the governing bodies around the world need to stop thinking women's rugby as an after thought or an attachment of the club but as equal footing to the Men, This season I have seen better Rugby coming from Women rather than Men and they need to capitalize on it and as TRG said increase the test program between World Cups.

Far too much is made on 7's and is not evolving the sport or bringing in new players.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 11 May 2018, 13:13

Look, the reality is the women are probably never going to bring enough money commercially to ever be on a level footing with the men, so they are probably always going to play second fiddle unfortunately. But there's no reason why things can't improve more than what there currently is. Super W players will apparently get match day payments from next year which is good and the season is likely to be doubled to 10 weeks, and it looks like the Wallaroos and Black Ferns will be playing more regularly in the future. 6 Nations have also got it right, even if Spain should be there also. So things are at least moving in the right direction in some areas. I wouldn't mind seeing a women's Rugby Championship played in conjunction with the mens but I don't think either South Africa or Argentina have strong enough sides to compete with Australia and New Zealand. Perhaps a similar tournament featuring Canada and the US would be an option, or maybe the Japanese girls. But I think tours need to happen, maybe initially in the form of mini-tournaments? It's all going to depend on money if we're honest. Is 6 tests a year too much? If the girls are mostly amateur or semi-pro then it might be difficult getting enough time off work throughout the year for some to to play that many internationals a year. I don't know what the answer is, all I know is that the current program isn't adequate enough in between world cups.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby Thomas » Fri, 11 May 2018, 13:20

I agree with what you saying and you are right, but some countries have never given Women's program a proper chance hence why is playing second fiddle, Argentina have never made the attempt to have a proper 15 program spurts and starts but the reality on the ground they have never bothered, If they finally act on it other countries in South America will follow. The recent change in contracts in England didn't help the XV Program.

Yes there are some steps in the right direction and some of the argument are the same which have been ongoing for years. Maybe they will never be parity but something has to changed and give the women's program a better chance.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 11 May 2018, 14:04

Oh definitely. There's some good signs the public is getting more interested in the women's game as evident by the World Cup and even the Women's 6 Nations this year. A pretty decent crowd should be on hand in both Women's Bledisloe games this year as they are the curtain raisers to the mens.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby victorsra » Fri, 11 May 2018, 20:12

I really think Women's XVs would benefit a lot if the WRWC were played together with the men's. It would be much easier to bring visibility to the women's tournament that way. I bet most people would watch both and support their countries in both much more than in the current separate tournaments.

It is hard to attract attention to the WRWC alone, too much prejudice around and lack of interest for most... just look at this forum: how many people are there commenting in the men's threads, while it is usually the same guys here posting sometimes in the women's threads...? Most people don't even look the posts here. The split doesn't help.
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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 12 May 2018, 01:22

The Women's World Cup would get overshadowed by the mens. It's not fair on the girls to get to play at a World Cup only to have it pushed to the back pages of the newspaper. Combined 7's World Cup I can live with, but for 15's the girls need to be given the respect of having their tournament stand on their own. I'd argue most of the women wouldn't want it either. It's insulting to women to say they need the men's World Cup to help them.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby Gen Santa » Sat, 12 May 2018, 23:47

it's not just so much that women's rugby is not as profitable but its a reality that rugby in general is not as popular as we might think... outside of soccer there are other sports that are competing for attention to become "second best sport"... such as baseball, basketball, hockey, etc... the only countries where rugby is seriously a top sport is the home countries, france, new zealand, south africa, argentina and some other random countries (georgia, japan, kenya etc)... even the mighty rugby union programme in australia seems to be sadly declining, such a shame... so of course, the women's game will suffer as well... not to mention the 'tier gap' is a bit bigger in women's rugby? (tier one - new zealand, england, ireland, canada, usa, australia, italy, france, maybe wales; tier two - scotland, spain, japan; tier three - basically everyone else)

and i think an integrated women's world cup would be difficult to pull off, mainly the logistics and such... instead the women's rugby world cup should be better promoted and hosted in nations which dont get too many rugby events, perhaps the usa or canada would be good hosts

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby victorsra » Sun, 13 May 2018, 14:56

The Women's World Cup would get overshadowed by the mens. It's not fair on the girls to get to play at a World Cup only to have it pushed to the back pages of the newspaper. Combined 7's World Cup I can live with, but for 15's the girls need to be given the respect of having their tournament stand on their own. I'd argue most of the women wouldn't want it either. It's insulting to women to say they need the men's World Cup to help them.


I think the opposite, I think even overshadowed it would get more attention than the current independent WRWC. More than this, I really think it would draw attention from people that otherwise woudn't really care about the current WRWC (breaking misconceptions). I think the difference is so big that even a small stake of the RWC attention would be much bigger than now. It is all about the schedule: don't put women's matches at the same time of men's matches. And you'll see it getting attention.
Last edited by victorsra on Mon, 14 May 2018, 02:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby Gen Santa » Mon, 14 May 2018, 00:37

victorsra wrote:
The Women's World Cup would get overshadowed by the mens. It's not fair on the girls to get to play at a World Cup only to have it pushed to the back pages of the newspaper. Combined 7's World Cup I can live with, but for 15's the girls need to be given the respect of having their tournament stand on their own. I'd argue most of the women wouldn't want it either. It's insulting to women to say they need the men's World Cup to help them.


I think the opposite, I think even overshadowed it would get more attention that the current independent WRWC. More than this, I really think it would draw attention from people that otherwise woudn't really care about the current WRWC (breaking misconceptions). I think the difference is so big that even a small stake of the RWC attention would be much bigger than now. It is all about the schedule: don't put women's matches at the same time of men's matches. And you'll see it getting attention.


what would the challenges be with logistics, etc? it could definitely work, but it would have to be planned carefully

i would imagine a wrwc in a nation like canada, the usa or spain might be a good idea

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 14 May 2018, 05:04

victorsra wrote:I think the opposite, I think even overshadowed it would get more attention than the current independent WRWC. More than this, I really think it would draw attention from people that otherwise woudn't really care about the current WRWC (breaking misconceptions). I think the difference is so big that even a small stake of the RWC attention would be much bigger than now. It is all about the schedule: don't put women's matches at the same time of men's matches. And you'll see it getting attention.


Even if that was the case it's the logistics that are going to be an issue. You're talking about trying to fit in an additional 6 matches for the pools rounds and 8 extra playoffs matches. You're also talking about additional venues, training facilitates, hotels, volunteers, supporters, not to mention at least an additional 360 players you're going to have cater for on top of coaching, training, and medical staff. And then there's TV coverage, where in the schedule will networks play the games? It's hard enough running one world cup, but to expect to run two at the same time is a recipe for disaster. And as I said, I think it's insulting to women to say they need to share their world cup with men. The Women's World Cup should be about them having the spotlight once every 4 years in the rugby calendar, running along side the mens tournament diminishes that spotlight. If more attention is needed on the WRWC then more promotion needs to be done, that I fully support.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby victorsra » Wed, 16 May 2018, 00:51

Even if that was the case it's the logistics that are going to be an issue. You're talking about trying to fit in an additional 6 matches for the pools rounds and 8 extra playoffs matches. You're also talking about additional venues, training facilitates, hotels, volunteers, supporters, not to mention at least an additional 360 players you're going to have cater for on top of coaching, training, and medical staff. And then there's TV coverage, where in the schedule will networks play the games?


True, but I think it is not that problem. Not all venues are used every day, I do believe a rotation is not a problem. I don't think the current WRWC is profitable, so you already have a cost involved that is not being paid by the tournament itself (but I don't have proper data to say more).


And as I said, I think it's insulting to women to say they need to share their world cup with men. The Women's World Cup should be about them having the spotlight once every 4 years in the rugby calendar, running along side the mens tournament diminishes that spotlight. If more attention is needed on the WRWC then more promotion needs to be done, that I fully support.


I don't think it as an insult if the official organization promotes both men's and women's matches equaly. I don't think the press will cover it less than it currently does. That is the point.

I REALLY agree with you that the WRWC should be alone in the spotlight but it is sooooooooooooo far from that that I believe for a while a format together with the men's cup would give it a push.

The real insult is that the WRWC receive less attention from WR than both men's U20 competitions. WR has even the Nations Cup for men's with "A" squads from T1 nations every year and how many women's teams are really touring every year?
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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby Gen Santa » Wed, 16 May 2018, 01:45

yes victor... the women's qualifying process was an absolute joke... i don't think they even bothered with the african nations...

only recently has world rugby wanted to promote the women's teams... women's six nations definitely looks quite successful although more needs to be done... although the depth is very small... a women's nations cup sounds like a good idea similar to the men's, hosted in certain cities (say, austin, vancouver, etc where rugby has following)

i think the integrated world cup is worth an experiment, at least

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 16 May 2018, 03:42

victorsra wrote:I don't think it as an insult if the official organization promotes both men's and women's matches equaly. I don't think the press will cover it less than it currently does. That is the point.

I REALLY agree with you that the WRWC should be alone in the spotlight but it is sooooooooooooo far from that that I believe for a while a format together with the men's cup would give it a push.

The real insult is that the WRWC receive less attention from WR than both men's U20 competitions. WR has even the Nations Cup for men's with "A" squads from T1 nations every year and how many women's teams are really touring every year?


The reality is though no amount of equal treatment is going to make people want to watch the women's world cup at the same time as the mens. Look, the truth is there is a big enough part of the sporting community that isn't interested in women's teams sports. That's why women's professional sports leagues have always struggled for crowds and TV coverage. It's not fair but that's just how it is. I agree with you the Women's World Cup format isn't ideal, I also agree that they don't get the support from WR that they should, but I don't agree with having their World Cup run along side the mens because it will be overshadowed. No amount of trying to promote each equally is going to make people who don't like women's rugby want to watch it, which is unfair to the girls. The Women's World Cup needs to appeal to the people who want to watch women's rugby, not try and appeal to the people who aren't interested in the first place. The women's game is growing, but you can't force it on people because they will reject it. The girls needs the spotlight entirely on themselves for a few weeks every four years, it's not fair to them to have to battle for space in the newspapers whilst the All Blacks and Springboks are playing each other at the same time.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby Gen Santa » Wed, 16 May 2018, 04:14

i disagree a little bit, i think it's just a stigma against women's sports that used to exist 20 or even 10 years ago that has started to die... in latin america we have an infamous machismo culture that was very anti women's sports, but thankfully it is dying off... it's not just lack of interest but that stigma.. even in stereotypes like 'sports are too rough for girls' or 'women's sports are boring' which are blatantly false... again, they are dying off, but exist

note that women's football is growing rapidly and now you have pro leagues in europe, usa, mexico, sudamerica, etc, and it gets more attention... unfortunately we have to accept that rugby union isn't too popular to begin with, and we suffer issues like that damn rugby europe fiasco and the women indirectly suffer

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 16 May 2018, 09:13

Yeah, but Women's football also gets to have the spotlight all to themselves once every four years, just as womens cricket, basketball and field hockey does. As I said, you can't win people over who aren't interested in female team sports, so to run the Women's Rugby World Cup along side the mens makes little sense because it's opening it up to ridicule and unfair comparisons to the mens, not to mention relegating it to being an afterthought for most people, which isn't fair to the women. You can't make newspapers cover it any more than you can make people watch it who don't want to. And again, I doubt many of the rugby girls would want to be tied that closely to the mens anyway. It is insulting to say they need the men's tournament to get more attention. These are women, not little girls, they don't need their hand held.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby Thomas » Wed, 16 May 2018, 09:23

thatrugbyguy wrote:Yeah, but Women's football also gets to have the spotlight all to themselves once every four years, just as womens cricket, basketball and field hockey does. As I said, you can't win people over who aren't interested in female team sports, so to run the Women's Rugby World Cup along side the mens makes little sense because it's opening it up to ridicule and unfair comparisons to the mens, not to mention relegating it to being an afterthought for most people, which isn't fair to the women. You can't make newspapers cover it any more than you can make people watch it who don't want to. And again, I doubt many of the rugby girls would want to be tied that closely to the mens anyway. It is insulting to say they need the men's tournament to get more attention. These are women, not little girls, they don't need their hand held.


I was listening to the Women's coach of the England Netball Team on Radio and there was an interesting comment as to why Netball is not in the Olympics, (For those Commonwealth contributors we know is traditionally a women's only sport)
basically to be considered in the Olympic Program there has to be more Men inclusion! seriously?? I have seen it and have no interest in it.

You are right about Women getting a raw deal in terms of funding and facilities not many clubs support the programs and I see it week in week out.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 16 May 2018, 12:35

Thomas wrote:
I was listening to the Women's coach of the England Netball Team on Radio and there was an interesting comment as to why Netball is not in the Olympics, (For those Commonwealth contributors we know is traditionally a women's only sport)
basically to be considered in the Olympic Program there has to be more Men inclusion! seriously?? I have seen it and have no interest in it.

You are right about Women getting a raw deal in terms of funding and facilities not many clubs support the programs and I see it week in week out.


I would have no interest in seeing men's netball either, and I would baulk at the idea of having a mens world cup run along side the women cup for the same reasons mentioned above.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby victorsra » Wed, 16 May 2018, 18:57

No amount of trying to promote each equally is going to make people who don't like women's rugby want to watch i


Really man, I do think with both WC together (THE Rugby World Cup, men's and women's tournaments) would make new people watch it. I really do. If it is being promoted together with something everybody wants to watch, there will be a chance to get the attention of a % of those guys that otherwise would never stop to watch the WRWC - mostly because most of them don't even realise there is a WRWC going on in the first place.

Imagine the situation. Australia is eliminated in the Men's QFs, but the Women's team advances to the SFs. Don't you think there would be some sort of movement for everybody to watch and support the women in the following weekend? I do. That's how social media works. People do and promote things because of the momentum. There will be that World Cup atmosphere that involves and moves people. Almost magical. It is the hype.

The same atmosphere is not present in the WRWC days... therefore few people feel it and support it properly. It is irrational. But happens. The atmosphere of the RWC can give the women's XV the push.
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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 17 May 2018, 01:08

Your assuming people would turn up anymore than they would now. The thing about social media is that the people who would be the most supportive of the concept are the ones who don’t care enough about the sport to attend. Those people like the idea of what your suggesting, but they don’t care for the sport, they care about the symbolism not the sport. Those people aren’t true fans and will never be true fans. You’re also assuming people will just turn up because it’s promoted at the same time. There’s no evidence to suggest this is what people do. And again, i’m sure if you asks the girls what they want they themselves wouldn’t want to clash with the men’s World Cup because they know they will be overshadowed. They don’t need the men, that’s treating women like children. They need their World Cup for themselves, no amount of promotion is going to take away the fact the men’s tournament would overshadow the women’s if held at the same time. It’s fanciful thinking to suggest it wouldn’t. Would the Wallaroos get support if they made a semi-final? Yes, would it be substantial more if they made the semi-finals with the men’s tournament? Probably not.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby Thomas » Thu, 17 May 2018, 09:24

It doesn't matter how you spin it, Women's Rugby are getting the raw deal. the people who go in attendance are the minority.. hence my example of Netball forcing a women's sport to have men's involvement.

If you ever been to Twickenham barely get a stand sold out even at the Stoop, is not just promoted and TRG is right is all about the symbolism.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 17 May 2018, 11:00

I do genuinely think if enough promotion goes into the 2021 World Cup down here in Australia we will get decent size crowds turning out. We've got enough quality venues of around 5,000 capacity that I have no doubt can be filled during the pool stage if A) the promotion is really good, and B) the scheduling is done well. And I have no doubt the semi-finals and final could be played at one of our many 30,000 seat venues. But it has to be done right. It's no good playing the Women's World Cup in university fields, it's got to be proper stadiums.

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Re: 2021 Womens Rugby World Cup

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Thu, 17 May 2018, 13:57

thatrugbyguy wrote:Yeah, but Women's football also gets to have the spotlight all to themselves once every four years, just as womens cricket, basketball and field hockey does. As I said, you can't win people over who aren't interested in female team sports, so to run the Women's Rugby World Cup along side the mens makes little sense because it's opening it up to ridicule and unfair comparisons to the mens, not to mention relegating it to being an afterthought for most people, which isn't fair to the women. You can't make newspapers cover it any more than you can make people watch it who don't want to. And again, I doubt many of the rugby girls would want to be tied that closely to the mens anyway. It is insulting to say they need the men's tournament to get more attention. These are women, not little girls, they don't need their hand held.


I agree with this.

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