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2017 Women's World Cup

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby victorsra » Mon, 04 Sep 2017, 19:47

Going back to the World Cup, I read a couple of articles after FIFA expanded their World Cup that instead of having 48 teams they could keep it with 32 and simply organize the Womens World Cup together, as one single product with 2 cups. I am really thinking that this would help a lot Womens Rugby too. You can use all the World Cup mania of that golden month to promote the game in a complete way. That's more or less what the Olympics does. And it is positive to break barriers. I am pretty sure that England would be behind the womens team in 2015 breaking womens rugby records 2 years ago. Maybe the destiny of their XVs professional project would've been different. I would also make Argentina and South Africa move on, Australia to give XVs more attention.... and with a "Super Crown" given to NZ as champions of both. It would be a big new trophy to have.
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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby sammo » Mon, 04 Sep 2017, 20:13

victorsra wrote:He already made it clear in another thread some months ago he would clean Romania from all minorities that live there. I stoped to post or read the political threads already. It s usuless to talk to someone that doesn't have the capacity to think about arguments that are more than binary. Of course he can't think about gender either. Anyone is free to desagree wth anything, but at least give an argument that is not simplistic denial.



There was also a homophobic comment on reddit that was downvoted then deleted. Before I knew he was a mod I sent in several reports about racism, obviously to no avail. Its a shame really, this is a great resource but opinions like this don't give our community a good name.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Thomas » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 08:15

victorsra wrote:Going back to the World Cup, I read a couple of articles after FIFA expanded their World Cup that instead of having 48 teams they could keep it with 32 and simply organize the Womens World Cup together, as one single product with 2 cups. I am really thinking that this would help a lot Womens Rugby too. You can use all the World Cup mania of that golden month to promote the game in a complete way. That's more or less what the Olympics does. And it is positive to break barriers. I am pretty sure that England would be behind the womens team in 2015 breaking womens rugby records 2 years ago. Maybe the destiny of their XVs professional project would've been different. I would also make Argentina and South Africa move on, Australia to give XVs more attention.... and with a "Super Crown" given to NZ as champions of both. It would be a big new trophy to have.


I would love to see Argentina or South America Federation more attention for XV Program if there is 1 spot available for the continent they will invest resources and time into the national squads. I am of the opinion we should go to 16 teams and start preparing the 4 years cycle now.

On a separate note is NZ the new holders of the Utrecht Shield?

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 11:42

Look, no-ones going to argue men and women dont' have different interests, but that's kind of an irrelevant point with this. i think the biggest issue women's sport has with winning more people over is that a lot of the women's teams sports dont have full time professional players who can do nothing but train. But the reality is women's sport is always going to be different to men's, it simply comes down to whether you accept the differences. Me personally I like watching women play rugby because it's a different style of play, I'm just disappointed with the competitiveness of the World Cup.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby grande » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 12:56

Thomas wrote:On a separate note is NZ the new holders of the Utrecht Shield?


Yessir.

When it comes to combining the mens & womens World Cups, I'm personally against it. I feel like, if that were to happen, the womens games would become a "side show" and receive almost no coverage. When it's a separate event, it gets separate reporting, which I feel is important.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby victorsra » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 17:34

Yessir.

When it comes to combining the mens & womens World Cups, I'm personally against it. I feel like, if that were to happen, the womens games would become a "side show" and receive almost no coverage. When it's a separate event, it gets separate reporting, which I feel is important.


Yes, I understand this points. However, even as a sideshow now it would for sure (IMHO) provide more exposure to the womens rugby than the current WRWC. The ideal is to have both tournaments as big things, but I see this as an strategic movement to give WRWC autonomy in a long term. The separate reporting is not near to be good for the WRWC now. It was a sideshow anyway in the rugby news in the middle of the Super Rugby/Rugby Championship/Top 14....

The men's World Cup has many empty days that coul be used to promote the womens game. And IMO the lack of womens XVs matches during the 4 years cycle makes it interesting to have the Womens World Cup played every 2 years: one alone and one with the mens World Cup. Why not?
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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 18:16

I'm definitively against the hypothesis of a 2 years cycle for the World Cup; I like large breaths and the fact that four years between a World Cup and the other make the trophy more precious.
The idea of a Women Word Cup melted with the men's one could be smart, but I just can't imagine if it would be efficacious or not. Id est, I can't forecast if women matches in the rest days of the men's tournament would attract good crowd and media interest. But the idea is laudable

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby johnbirch » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 21:26

A World Cup every four years, yes, but how do you encourage 15s in between?

How about (to steal some other sports ideas) a "Champions Trophy" in-between, with - say - 8 teams (winners of the 6N, 4N, Asian Championship, CanAm winners, African Champions, and Trans-Tasman/Oceanian winners. Plus hosts and World Cup holders)?

Straight knockout at one venue, 4 games per day. First round on Saturday, cup & plate semi-finals Weds, finals/classification Sunday.

Would hopefully attract TV coverage, be relatively cheap to host, and give a boost to regional championships. Result might also influence World Cup seedings or even qualification.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 07:00

Maybe I'm just grumpy but even a tournament of this type would be for me a sort of "ghost World Cup". I know that women rugby needs big events to attract interest, but to multiplicate events like the World Cup is a way to inflate them. In my opinion, of course.
Other sports chose the way of a 2-years world championship cycle and -at my eyes- this devalued the preciousness of those events. You are still cradling your long-dreamed medal and it's almost time to play an other world championship. I don't like it. But other fans like it. It's a matter of personal taste, as always.
I don't know how to boost XV in between the world cups. I'd say some test matches in june and november, along the men's ones; maybe as curtain raisers. The idea of a women's Championship (Nze, Aus, Saf, Arg) would be good, if Argentina had a women's team and if South Africa wasn't still consistently weaker than Aus & Nze. I hope this Four Nations (thanks, spanish federation) may become a Six Nations (Spa, Ned, Swe, Rus, Bel, Ger), id est a sort of annual european championship. I have not original ideas...
Like said in other threads, maybe World Rugby has chosen an other way: not to push up XV but to sustain 7s, so enlarging the base of players and a future generation of players which will boost also the XV activity

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby victorsra » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 14:20

Maybe a Champions Trophy for 2023 would be a great lab to see if this might be an option.
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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 17:41

Canalina wrote: I admit that probably the success/unsuccess of a sport is not exclusively a fact of market and that a good promotion work may help -sometime consistently- its popularity and a change of mind on spectators.

But I still think that the greater part of a sport's durable success comes from the beauty of that sport and not from political moves or marketing.


I think that federations and promoters have a lot to do with popularity of men's vs women's sports.

Skiing, athletics. gymnastics and swimming have combined men's and women's events. TV rights are sold combined, and broadcasters must show both.

Meanwhile, the UCI World Tour has very different calendars for men and women. Same with the Sevens World Series.

Canalina wrote: Let's remember also american football, the yankee cousin of rugby: exist it in a women's version? I've never seen any image about.


Yes there's it, the Lingerie Football League...

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 06 Sep 2017, 17:45

victorsra wrote: I read a couple of articles after FIFA expanded their World Cup that instead of having 48 teams they could keep it with 32 and simply organize the Womens World Cup together, as one single product with 2 cups.

I am really thinking that this would help a lot Womens Rugby too. You can use all the World Cup mania of that golden month to promote the game in a complete way. That's more or less what the Olympics does.


I think that some team sports can do even better than that, for example with combined men's and women's matches, with two quarters each. That could be done with rugby sevens, field hockey, basketball, volleyball and cricket.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 07:46

Maybe all the rugby fans in the world are already aware of this but I discovered it just now: New Zealand is the current champion of all the World Cups

Men (defeated Australia in 2015)
Women (defeated England in 2017)
U20 (defeated England in 2017)
men 7s (defeated England in 2013)
women 7s (defeated Canada in 2013)

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 09:57

iul wrote:Boys and girls are different. Girls watch less sport because that's how they're built. They're more interested in princesses and other shit.


What nonsense! Girls are not built to watch less sport. Girls watch less sport because that is how they are raised - to care about dolls and princesses.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 10:08

thatrugbyguy wrote:Look, no-ones going to argue men and women dont' have different interests, but that's kind of an irrelevant point with this. i think the biggest issue women's sport has with winning more people over is that a lot of the women's teams sports dont have full time professional players who can do nothing but train. But the reality is women's sport is always going to be different to men's, it simply comes down to whether you accept the differences. Me personally I like watching women play rugby because it's a different style of play, I'm just disappointed with the competitiveness of the World Cup.


I agree with you. I know there are blow out matches in the men's world cup too but there were far too many in the women's world cup - NZ, England and France are way ahead of everyone else. Canada were disappointing - I expected a lot better from them. I don't think that the teams should be reduced though. I love watching Japan and Hong Kong. I think that teams need to have more games between world cups to make them more competitive. However, England were professional and had plenty of international games every year but were beaten quite soundly in the end by an largely amateur New Zealand side with a lot less international games and New Zealand are not known for being very generous towards their women's 15s side ... Maybe how the teams are coached is the problem?

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Thomas » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 11:40

ugrugbychiclet wrote:Maybe how the teams are coached is the problem?


You hit the nail on the head, is the methodology not the process. many coaches don't understand the mechanics of coaching and it affects how the national sides are run. Sports psychology also plays a big part.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 18:24

ugrugbychiclet wrote: NZ, England and France are way ahead of everyone else.

Canada were disappointing - I expected a lot better from them.


I disagree. Canada has a very fine team.
They were crushed by New Zealand, and often lose to England.
But they can defeat everyone else, including France and United States.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 18:40

I agree with Naburu, Canada remains a positively surprising nation for me. They were unlucky because they matched New Zealand in the pool phase, this leading them out of the main semifinals. Canada finished the tournament with four victories in five games and a +153 points difference; I think they ideally deserved at least the fourth place, if not a third place ex aequo with France. Their level is even more laudable if we consider that (if I'm not wrong) they maintain the 7s national team and the XV national team almost totally separated renouncing to some big 7s players (former 15s) like Kish, Landry and Farella (and renouncing to Harvey in 7s...)

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 07 Sep 2017, 18:48

I'd like to see Canada-France, Ireland-United States, and Ireland-Spain.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby sjbret » Fri, 08 Sep 2017, 07:13

NaBUru38 wrote:
ugrugbychiclet wrote:NZ, England and France are way ahead of everyone else.
Canada were disappointing - I expected a lot better from them.
I disagree. Canada has a very fine team.
They were crushed by New Zealand, and often lose to England.
But they can defeat everyone else, including France and United States.
Canalina wrote:I agree with Naburu, Canada remains a positively surprising nation for me. They were unlucky because they matched New Zealand in the pool phase, this leading them out of the main semifinals. Canada finished the tournament with four victories in five games and a +153 points difference; I think they ideally deserved at least the fourth place, if not a third place ex aequo with France. Their level is even more laudable if we consider that (if I'm not wrong) they maintain the 7s national team and the XV national team almost totally separated renouncing to some big 7s players (former 15s) like Kish, Landry and Farella (and renouncing to Harvey in 7s...)
I agree too. Canada thought too much about the game against the Ferns, and they missed too the game against Wales...
But in the unofficial rankings, Canada is still 3rd and France 4th. http://les-archives-de-serge.over-blog. ... 07224.html

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 09 Sep 2017, 04:40

Coaching does seem to be the big problem, although to be fair some of the inconsistency from the teams makes it hard to tell if it's actually that. Japan's defence in their first game was almost in stark contrast to their second match. Asian teams have to adapt their defensive structure to be competitive in both mens and women's due to the size differences. Japan showed glimpses of that, Hong Kong was pretty much non-existent. In terms of what to do with the international game as a whole, the girls need regular competition. Australia and New Zealand should be playing a 3 test series each year, and if it can be expanded to include SA and Argentina then develop a women's Rugby Championship. If not, have the US and Canada playing them.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Sat, 09 Sep 2017, 18:57

NaBUru38 wrote:
ugrugbychiclet wrote: NZ, England and France are way ahead of everyone else.

Canada were disappointing - I expected a lot better from them.


I disagree. Canada has a very fine team.
They were crushed by New Zealand, and often lose to England.
But they can defeat everyone else, including France and United States.


I am not judging Canada's performance from their loss to New Zealand. I know that they can beat USA although I am not too sure about whether they would have beaten France during the world cup. France was in pretty fine form so it would have been an evenly matched game if they met. I am judging Canada from their pool game against Wales where they failed to secure a bonus point and therefore lost out on a semifinal berth. That was definitely disappointing - I expected a top 4 finish from them and no less.

That said, the current format is ridiculous.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Sat, 09 Sep 2017, 19:00

sjbret wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:
ugrugbychiclet wrote:NZ, England and France are way ahead of everyone else.
Canada were disappointing - I expected a lot better from them.
I disagree. Canada has a very fine team.
They were crushed by New Zealand, and often lose to England.
But they can defeat everyone else, including France and United States.
Canalina wrote:I agree with Naburu, Canada remains a positively surprising nation for me. They were unlucky because they matched New Zealand in the pool phase, this leading them out of the main semifinals. Canada finished the tournament with four victories in five games and a +153 points difference; I think they ideally deserved at least the fourth place, if not a third place ex aequo with France. Their level is even more laudable if we consider that (if I'm not wrong) they maintain the 7s national team and the XV national team almost totally separated renouncing to some big 7s players (former 15s) like Kish, Landry and Farella (and renouncing to Harvey in 7s...)
I agree too. Canada thought too much about the game against the Ferns, and they missed too the game against Wales...
But in the unofficial rankings, Canada is still 3rd and France 4th. http://les-archives-de-serge.over-blog. ... 07224.html


That could be it. Maybe they focused too much on the New Zealand game and not enough on the other games in their pool. The struggled against Wales in the pool stages then destroyed them in the play offs.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Sat, 09 Sep 2017, 19:11

Thomas wrote:You hit the nail on the head, is the methodology not the process. many coaches don't understand the mechanics of coaching and it affects how the national sides are run. Sports psychology also plays a big part.


All true! :(


thatrugbyguy wrote:Coaching does seem to be the big problem, although to be fair some of the inconsistency from the teams makes it hard to tell if it's actually that. Japan's defence in their first game was almost in stark contrast to their second match. Asian teams have to adapt their defensive structure to be competitive in both mens and women's due to the size differences. Japan showed glimpses of that, Hong Kong was pretty much non-existent. In terms of what to do with the international game as a whole, the girls need regular competition. Australia and New Zealand should be playing a 3 test series each year, and if it can be expanded to include SA and Argentina then develop a women's Rugby Championship. If not, have the US and Canada playing them.


Again, true. When teams don't play enough games despite being well coached the players might not perform as well as they should/could due to inexperience.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby sjbret » Sun, 10 Sep 2017, 03:02

ugrugbychiclet wrote:France was in pretty fine form
Until their third game against Ireland where the fight was so intense too that both teams finished their world cup in agony.

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