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OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Tue, 03 Nov 2015, 05:58

Canalina wrote:
ugrugbychiclet wrote:This is definitely incorrect.

Kenya matches 21 pts 44.35255 pos 30
Uganda matches 22 pts 39.64745 pos 38

Uganda and Kenya have played each other 20 times and Kenya has not played any other country. Uganda on the other hand has played Rwanda twice and South Africa once therefore has played 23 games in total. Or if the matches this year are excluded then Uganda and Kenya have played each other 18 times therefore Uganda has a total of 21 matches. How then Kenya has played one more match than Uganda beats my understanding.

Total number of wins, losses and draws:

Uganda - 10 wins, 11 losses, 2 draws
Kenya - 10 wins, 9 losses, 2 draws

Apparently the two matches between Uganda and Rwanda are not counted by the supposed World Rugby list, Rwanda in fact doesn't appear at all in it. In wikipedia, those matches are signed as Uganda XV v Rwanda XV.
So they would remain 21 matches for Uganda and 20 for Kenya, while WR list has 22 Uga and 21 Ken. It's like they knew one more match played between the two countries, one match we are not aware of


Oh! Why would they exclude the games against Rwanda and yet they were considered full internationals by both countries? Or is it because Rwanda was not a member of CAR and IRB at that time?

"It's like they knew one more match played between the two countries, one match we are not aware of" Ha ha :lol:

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Tue, 03 Nov 2015, 08:52

ugrugbychiclet wrote:Oh! Why would they exclude the games against Rwanda and yet they were considered full internationals by both countries? Or is it because Rwanda was not a member of CAR and IRB at that time?

Probably you have found the point. In fact, neither all the matches of Kyrgyzstan (3) and Laos (7) are considered by that rankings' list.
It seems that, like it happens for men, the nations not full member can't have a place in the rankings
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Tue, 03 Nov 2015, 13:46

Canalina wrote:
ugrugbychiclet wrote:Oh! Why would they exclude the games against Rwanda and yet they were considered full internationals by both countries? Or is it because Rwanda was not a member of CAR and IRB at that time?

Probably you have found the point. In fact, neither all the matches of Kyrgyzstan (3) and Laos (7) are considered by that rankings' list.
It seems that, like it happens for men, the nations not full member can't have a place in the rankings


Ah ok. It makes sense then if that is the reason.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby grande » Tue, 03 Nov 2015, 14:58

If that's the case then, realistically, they should eliminate a lot of the early rankings... Many of the women's teams weren't sanctioned in the early days.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby johnbirch » Tue, 03 Nov 2015, 19:50

As the instigator of the Wiki list (and therefore a fair few others, indirectly) could I answer a few points.

First, Canalina - I think it highly unlikely now that there are any "missing" old tests. All of the Tournaments are complete, and the dark ages (c 20+ years ago) had so few countries that its unlikely that there is anything new. The only question that might come up might be the "Third place" game at the 1991 World Cup, where France beat New Zealand - but which the New Zealanders never counted as a test and which was not in the World Cup programme (so I didn't count it, based on my/Wikipedia's criteria). Its always been a bit touch and go though and the French have a reasonably good case if they wanted to push it - I mean as good as the RugbyFest, for example (which New Zealand always used to discount as the women were not in the NZRU at the time - but seemed to change their mind around 2010).

It does seem that WR are discounting games played by nations that are not members - that seems very dodgy. Throughout most of the 1980s, and even much of the 1990s, many - indeed most - women's teams were not members of their national unions. IRB/WR did not recognised the 1991 or 1994 World Cups, and went to some lengths to try to get the latter cancelled - even threatening/hinting at sanctions (which is why the Dutch dropped hosting it, and New Zealand and Spain did not take part). So if they were being consistent on that most games before about 1998 would be ruled out, unless they have some sort of cut-off date from non-IRB recognised teams.

But some of these inconsistencies may come from individual nations. All nations will be being asked whether or not they accept these games as tests, and there are bound to be inconsistencies there - which may well account for the odd decision about Austria v Czech Republic (for example).

In short, having done much of the original list and having at that time had to agonise over games and try to be consistent I am not in the least surprised that WR are finding this as difficult as they are.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Tue, 03 Nov 2015, 22:33

john birch wrote:… I think it highly unlikely now that there are any "missing" old tests. …

I think you are right, but there are many little discrepancies hard to explain between the various lists.
Can't you ask to World Rugby, in the name of "ScrumQueens", if they may give you the list of matches they are working on?
World Rugby is probably grateful to ScrumQueens and also to your work in Wikipedia, that probably they have used. I think you would have good chances to have a positive answer
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Wed, 11 Nov 2015, 21:42

The "World Rugby list" is constantly updated. Since the last check, the number of matches played by Russia, Belgium etc raised two (they played the Euro championship) while the number of matches played by England and France raised one (they played a test match one against other). With that win France has overtaken England at the second place of the chart http://cmsapi.pulselive.com/rugby/ranki ... lback=load
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Ser Podrick of Payne » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 12:50

Official rankings introduced for women’s 15s game

http://www.worldrugby.org/news/134344

Not really new news, but the "new system" comes into effect today

And the rankings themselves with 52 teams at http://www.worldrugby.org/rankings#wru

We will see how the "new system" works then...

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby grande » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 13:22

Glad to see it released before the 6N starts.

Edit: Argentina is on the list... I don't recall them having ever played a game...

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 14:19

Nice news but the mechanism of the ranking remains mysterious to me. Argentina, Bosnia, Indonesia and Mexico should have never played a test match but they are in the ranking and with different points: 44.0, 44.0, 46.0, 48.0. Why?
Portugal is at 64.00, with just one match played; they must have started with at least 61 points. It's hard to find uniform criteria.
But, ok, good news anyway
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby victorsra » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 18:21

I don't remember matches from any of the Latin Americans listed...

Brazil played one match in 2008 against the Netherlands, but I don't remember official matches from Argentina or Mexico!
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby grande » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 19:42

The rankings have quietly been updated... Argentina is no longer in the list.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Mon, 01 Feb 2016, 19:50

Nor Mexico and Indonesia..
They were 52 if I'm not wrong. Now they are 48
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 02 Feb 2016, 09:23

Number 20 Germany has stopped playing 15s in 2010.
Also Portugal, number 14 has played one international game 21 years ago and lost 0:50 against Germany.

Article on this ranking on the german site totalrugby.de

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/8049/33/

Let's face it: there is no real women's 15s rugby apart from the 6 nations, NZ, SA, OZ, USA, Canada and some one-off fun friendlies.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Tue, 02 Feb 2016, 11:26

RugbyLiebe wrote:Number 20 Germany has stopped playing 15s in 2010.
Also Portugal, number 14 has played one international game 21 years ago and lost 0:50 against Germany.

This means that Portugal entered in the ranking with some like 66.00 or 67.00 points, while Philippines -for example- entered with 30.00. Maybe World Rugby is just following the entry rules of the various times, maybe when Portugal played its match the IRB rule said that new members had to start with 67 points (even if it seems strange); but anyway, calculating now the rankings, they should have given all the members the same entry level to be fair.

RugbyLiebe wrote:Article on this ranking on the german site totalrugby.de

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/8049/33/

Let's face it: there is no real women's 15s rugby apart from the 6 nations, NZ, SA, OZ, USA, Canada and some one-off fun friendlies.

This notwithstanding, I think the women ranking is a good idea. It could stimulate a bit (just a bit) the federations on the effort to create a XV national team and a XV movement
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby grande » Tue, 02 Feb 2016, 15:02

RugbyLiebe wrote:Number 20 Germany has stopped playing 15s in 2010.
Also Portugal, number 14 has played one international game 21 years ago and lost 0:50 against Germany.

Article on this ranking on the german site totalrugby.de

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/8049/33/

Let's face it: there is no real women's 15s rugby apart from the 6 nations, NZ, SA, OZ, USA, Canada and some one-off fun friendlies.


Honestly, I'd remove Australia from that list. They didn't play a single game between the 2010 and 2014 World Cups.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby hag » Wed, 03 Feb 2016, 09:27

RugbyLiebe wrote:Number 20 Germany has stopped playing 15s in 2010.
Also Portugal, number 14 has played one international game 21 years ago and lost 0:50 against Germany.

Article on this ranking on the german site totalrugby.de

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/8049/33/

Let's face it: there is no real women's 15s rugby apart from the 6 nations, NZ, SA, OZ, USA, Canada and some one-off fun friendlies.


According to Sportkipik German ladies played Belgium two times since. In 2012 Germany won, in 2013 Belgium won. There have been two "European Championships" the last 2 years. Belgium and Netherlands both won ones.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Wed, 03 Feb 2016, 12:02

World Rugby should release a list with all the test matches of the history, now that they have computed it. It's not a state secret, it would be a service for the audience
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby johnbirch » Wed, 03 Feb 2016, 21:48

According to Sportkipik German ladies played Belgium two times since. In 2012 Germany won, in 2013 Belgium won. There have been two "European Championships" the last 2 years. Belgium and Netherlands both won ones.[/quote]

These were not games involving official German teams. A similar unofficial German XV also played Switzerland last year.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby johnbirch » Wed, 03 Feb 2016, 21:57

Canalina wrote:World Rugby should release a list with all the test matches of the history, now that they have computed it. It's not a state secret, it would be a service for the audience


The games are there on the website if you search for them, but there is no easy list and it is not always clear which games are men's and which women's.

From a random check, WR seem to have included pretty much all of the games on the Wikipedia list except those involving teams who were not members of the IRB/WR at the time of the game, which is why they start in 1987 instead of 1983.

Far be it for me to suggest that by not producing a easy list WR neatly avoid too many disputes with certain Unions about whether certain games were or were not tests - because that one will run and run forever and is probably why they took so long to get to this point. It enables each Union to potentially produce lists of games or caps of their own without appearing to contradict WR.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Thomas » Mon, 15 Feb 2016, 12:19

Can someone clarify the rankings and the criteria for me? John?

Why is Latin American countries ranked? They are not playing 15's and just coming back from Mexico they have no plans at present. They are sticking to the Olympic program and they don't seem to think there is anything wrong about not having XV they see the anomaly.

I know the lack of women players is a factor but why rank them if they haven't played tests? particularly Argentina is telling.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby johnbirch » Mon, 15 Feb 2016, 19:22

Why is Latin American countries ranked?


Because the one major difference between the WR women's rankings and the men is that in the women's you only have to play one test to get in - and Brazil have done that. It is the rankings biggest failing, IMHO - that and the fact that teams do not lose points if they do not play. Its actually a disincentive to play tests in some cases!

Other South/Central American teams were included in error - they should now have been removed.

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Tue, 03 May 2016, 20:01

I don't know if this was already known but World Rugby women's rankings conserves the history of all the changes in the rankings from the first match counted by them, that is England v Wales on april 4th or 5th 1987. See http://www.worldrugby.org/rankings#wru and work on the dates

This has two nice consequences for we rugby stats mads:
- the women rankings system becomes paradoxally older than the men's one, because this last starts on october 2003 while the women's one starts as said on april 1987
- with a lot of patience we could list all the matches counted by World Rugby, checking the rankings week by week from 1987 (you just have to take two weeks of holidays from work and close yourself in a dark room with a computer)

A thing that I like a lot is this, Italy on the world podium for some weeks!
Image
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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby grande » Tue, 03 May 2016, 20:25

So, do you know why they consider that to be the first "real" game?

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Re: OFFICIAL Women's Rugby Rankings

Postby Canalina » Wed, 04 May 2016, 02:46

No, I don't know why. That match has been played on april 5th 1987 and it's just the 13th game on the wikipedia list
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s ... union#1986

Pity for Netherlands, they would have appeared as second in the rankings for two years if World Rugby had considered all the matches from the origin. Italy too would have appeared second for some time after its brilliant 0-0 debut against France in 1985
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