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Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 14:43

Canalina wrote:Maybe I'm unconsciously retrograde too but this kind of reasoning often appears to me very stretched.
Why she should deserve a salary? Because she is one of the best woman footballer in her Country? I'm one of the best "Fountain Pelota" players in Italy (it was a "sport" me and my friends invented when we were kids) but I don't think I'm entitled to have a salary for this. Market says if you deserve or not a salary and evidently women football in Argentina, as in the most of the World, is not quite popular to make the players rewarded. Why it is not popular is completely an other branch of the argument; I admit that it could be linked to a male-inclined vision of the world, but not sure about that. In tennis, alpine ski and other sports women are as famous as men, also in a team sport like volleyball women are almost popular as men, so maybe the fact is just that -at the moment- women football is perceived as much less entertaining than men's one.
An other doubt is: she should be salaried because she is an "high performance athlete"? But bricklayers or plumbers are not payed because they are the best in the World in their job, they are payed because they do that job; high or average performance, no matter. So if we wanted to be equal and we wanted to have no discriminations at all we should pay all the players of every sport, even who plays futsal one evening per week with the friends. And it seems absurd, obviously


that maybe so but if you are contracted by the club it should be same terms and conditions and treated equally like men in terms of services, I understand financial remueneration changes from player to player but the work conditions should all be the same. Payments should be fair and not token gestures
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 17:55

But are women athletes earning as much as men in those individual sports? Don't think so...

It is obviously sexism, since early ages. Girls have been educated to not engage in contact sports, to not follow sports as much as boys. It is harder for girls to follow an idol as, even if they exist, they are less present in the media, ads, in the daily talk. It varies from sport to sport, but definitly very true for football and rugby.

People don't expect from girls success in sports activities in school. Of course it is changing a bit in parts of the world and there are parents that educate girls in a different way. However those that are encouraged to engage in sports usualy don't find the proper environment to grow like boys. It is very different sort of competition and competition makes athletes evolve. And of course talented boys can bet on sports professional carreers they can put theirs minds and bodies on that. For girls the risk is immense as the careers path is nothing clear and too risky. Plus families will probably not support such decision to persue a professional sports careers, as they know it is not safe. Not in all sports, but certainly in rugby and football.

Therefore, the quality of the game will be blamed and the vicious circle goes on.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Thu, 07 Feb 2019, 18:51

victorsra wrote:But are women athletes earning as much as men in those individual sports?

I'm almost sure that the prize amount in tennis and alpine ski is the same for men and women, by statute, since some years ago.
Anyway the biggest part of the reward comes, I think, by the sponsors, but this matter is up to every athlete appeal; probably Serena Williams or Lindsay Vonn gain more money than many of their male colleagues

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 08 Feb 2019, 10:42

Another international friendly involving a Spanish club, this one this very same weekend, Dendermonde v El Salvador:
https://twitter.com/Chami_Rugby/status/ ... 0422614016

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Fri, 08 Feb 2019, 15:28

Canalina wrote:
victorsra wrote:But are women athletes earning as much as men in those individual sports?

I'm almost sure that the prize amount in tennis and alpine ski is the same for men and women, by statute, since some years ago.
Anyway the biggest part of the reward comes, I think, by the sponsors, but this matter is up to every athlete appeal; probably Serena Williams or Lindsay Vonn gain more money than many of their male colleagues


There's a big gap:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/ng-in ... nder-based
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Fri, 08 Feb 2019, 19:12

It's interesting how women didn't also campaign to increase their workload as well. Playing 3 set matches while the men play 5 set matches but earning the same is fine apparently.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 08 Feb 2019, 19:25

Surprisingly strong Spanish team called to prepare REWC semifinal against Russia:
http://www.ferugby.es/noticias2.php?tit ... %20europeo

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby CraigChalmers » Fri, 08 Feb 2019, 21:18

Thomas wrote:Interesting article coming from Argentina

https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... federation

Female player suing the AFA taking legal action against her club, UAI Urquiza, and the Argentinian Football Federation for not recognising her as a professional player.

She states:

“The clubs and the Argentinian Football Federation do not recognise us as workers and deny us basic rights such as a salary, something that men do receive for playing football, and other basic things and tools that any high performance athlete needs: places to train, shoes, medical coverage and clothing, to name a few.”

In Argentina women’s rights are “constantly violated,” says Sánchez, “in the workplace and in all areas of women’s lives. Our society continues to be retrograde, misogynistic and ‘macho’. Women in this country suffer from gender discrimination and all kinds of violence.
which I think is key in relating to Rugby Union and other countries across Latin America they are not given the same respect as Men.



Different, but very much related, issue in the press in Scotland this week with clubs calling on UEFA to force clubs to pay compensation when signing female players from amateur clubs (currently no compensation is required in the women game, however is in the mens. Because of the rise in level of professionalism in the English game - and the fact our female players can get contracts in France/Italy/Germany - means an awful lot of players have moved abroad in the last few seasons)

Canalina wrote:I'm almost sure that the prize amount in tennis and alpine ski is the same for men and women, by statute, since some years ago.


To the best of my knowledge, FIS have been paying equal prize money* across all competitions (with the possible exception of ski jumping and certainly ski flying) for some time now - and in prize money terms at least, the top women have earned more than the top men for the last few years - no doubt helped by the dominance of Lindsey Vonn and Mikaela Shiffrin which no man has been able to replicate, however it applies across the top 20 or so athletes. Of course that doesn't include endorsements etc, however I wouldn't imagine Shiffrin is any less appealing to advertisers than Hirscher of Svindal.

*individual competitions are able to offer more should the funding be available (I presume via sponsors), but unsure if any competitions do. I'd imagine Kitzbhuel quite possibly does on the mens tour.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby carbonero » Fri, 08 Feb 2019, 21:39

Thomas wrote:that maybe so but if you are contracted by the club it should be same terms and conditions and treated equally like men in terms of services, I understand financial remueneration changes from player to player but the work conditions should all be the same. Payments should be fair and not token gestures

There isn’t a contract. It is an amateur sport. UAI Urquiza has rugby, basketball, handball, volleyball, field hockey and gymnastics? Why does she get paid and not the other amateur sections?

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Sat, 09 Feb 2019, 00:21

iul wrote:It's interesting how women didn't also campaign to increase their workload as well. Playing 3 set matches while the men play 5 set matches but earning the same is fine apparently.

Moronic comment. Obviusly if the negociation meant more hours of playing it would be arranged. Anyone not-dumb knows first you demmand and then you negociate.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Sat, 09 Feb 2019, 07:20

My comment is perfectly reasonable. There is a lot of hypocrisy among these "equal rights for women" campaigners, not only in sport, but also in other jobs like police, army, firefighting, where the women both claim they can do the jobs as well as the man AND ask for lower physical tests requirements.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 09 Feb 2019, 13:02

victorsra wrote:But are women athletes earning as much as men in those individual sports? Don't think so...

It is obviously sexism, since early ages. Girls have been educated to not engage in contact sports, to not follow sports as much as boys. It is harder for girls to follow an idol as, even if they exist, they are less present in the media, ads, in the daily talk. It varies from sport to sport, but definitly very true for football and rugby.

People don't expect from girls success in sports activities in school. Of course it is changing a bit in parts of the world and there are parents that educate girls in a different way. However those that are encouraged to engage in sports usualy don't find the proper environment to grow like boys. It is very different sort of competition and competition makes athletes evolve. And of course talented boys can bet on sports professional carreers they can put theirs minds and bodies on that. For girls the risk is immense as the careers path is nothing clear and too risky. Plus families will probably not support such decision to persue a professional sports careers, as they know it is not safe. Not in all sports, but certainly in rugby and football.

Therefore, the quality of the game will be blamed and the vicious circle goes on.


Women don't engage in sports as much mostly because they don't have the same type of competitiveness that men do. It's got little to do with being told they can't, most Western cultures for the last few decades have attempted to grow women's sport and whilst it's better than it use to be, the reality is women just aren't as interested in general. The proof is simply in who's actually watching, most viewers of women's sport are men not women. It's not just a case of them being less interested, there's also a biological factor as to why they don't. Simply put, women in general prefer to watch mens sport because it displays all the things women find attractive in men - competitiveness, leadership, athleticism, team work, confidence. How many average looking rugby players do you see with really attractive girlfriend? Plenty, because despite their looks they display the right type of qualities to attract these girls.

The one team sport were women have got the advantage is Netball. I don't expect many outside of Australia, New Zealand and the UK to know much of it, but it's a sport that was designed for women about 100 years ago. The local league down here went professional about 12-13 years ago and has become a massive success. The players are paid a living wage, it gets good crowds and TV coverage. The reason for its success? It's not competing with men. It has its own identity. It's the biggest women's sport in the country by a wide margin. It might even be the most successful women's professional league in the entire world. Every other local women's professional or semi-professional sport, rugby, AFL, football, cricket, rugby league, they are all competing with the men's league, meaning they are going to be compared to their male counterparts one way or another unfairly. As far as I'm concerned, if you want to attract women to sport, you have to find sports that they are actually interested in.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Sat, 09 Feb 2019, 13:53

The sports women "like" are conditioned by the way they are raised. You can see nowadays soccer clubs where women are almost half of the supporters in the stands. In Brazil TV research showed half of the NFL public is women. There is nothing biological. It is purely cultural. But the big challenge is that women that follow sports are more keen to follow men's sports IMO, because this is what their friends that like sports (more men than women probably) enjoy. You (man ou woman) like more what your peers also like, because you are not alone. The thing now is to make it normal, natural, to follow women sports.

And this is something hard to believe how capitalism is not that logical in sports. Clubs could profit the double if people followed the same way men's and women's teams. And they would have the double of events to fulfill their stadium's schedule. It is how culture conditions economy in many ways.

My comment is perfectly reasonable. There is a lot of hypocrisy among these "equal rights for women" campaigners, not only in sport, but also in other jobs like police, army, firefighting, where the women both claim they can do the jobs as well as the man AND ask for lower physical tests requirements.

No, you are only limited to understand more than a couple of simplistic arguments. There's no hypocrisy, it is about understanding how education and culture work,. You don't have a clue and take what is more simple to understand the way you need and want to believe. Just one more white male crying about not undestanding the world and not being as dominant as in the past.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Sat, 09 Feb 2019, 14:12

About pysical aspects, It doesn't matter if a men's match is more physical, what matters is how the 2 teams in the field produce the spectacle. People watch an immense load of crap men's matches in many sports and watch them. We do that in this forum. We don't prefer to watch Romania vs Germany instead of Ireland vs England because we think it is better. We watch because we like the teams, they mean things. A 2nd tier match of any sport can be as enjoyable as any top diviison match even if much worse physicaly and technicaly. What is really behind is the social meaning of the sport and the match.

That also helps explaining why some sports are more popular than others. It is not because one sports is "more enjoyable" than the other, when we compare big professional sports.

And that's the crap about the argument women's sports are no good. They can be good and they can be bad. Just like a men's match. If there are more bad matches than good matches (in terms of emotion) it is because teams are not well prepared, and not because they can't be. What really changes is the will (voluntary or involuntary) of the male audience to watch and enjoy. And this only changes with the time.


In other words, it doesn't need to be better. It needs to be good enough.

Anyone that likes seven-a-side would be a big hypocrite to say the Women's series is crap. It is already great to watch the top teams. But the worst teams it is not. A bit obvious if we look of the state of the game in each country and how they deal with sevens.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Sat, 09 Feb 2019, 15:53

victorsra wrote:The sports women "like" are conditioned by the way they are raised. You can see nowadays soccer clubs where women are almost half of the supporters in the stands. In Brazil TV research showed half of the NFL public is women. There is nothing biological. It is purely cultural. But the big challenge is that women that follow sports are more keen to follow men's sports IMO, because this is what their friends that like sports (more men than women probably) enjoy. You (man ou woman) like more what your peers also like, because you are not alone. The thing now is to make it normal, natural, to follow women sports.

And this is something hard to believe how capitalism is not that logical in sports. Clubs could profit the double if people followed the same way men's and women's teams. And they would have the double of events to fulfill their stadium's schedule. It is how culture conditions economy in many ways.

My comment is perfectly reasonable. There is a lot of hypocrisy among these "equal rights for women" campaigners, not only in sport, but also in other jobs like police, army, firefighting, where the women both claim they can do the jobs as well as the man AND ask for lower physical tests requirements.

No, you are only limited to understand more than a couple of simplistic arguments. There's no hypocrisy, it is about understanding how education and culture work,. You don't have a clue and take what is more simple to understand the way you need and want to believe. Just one more white male crying about not undestanding the world and not being as dominant as in the past.

You are forced to resort to name calling because I'm right.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 09 Feb 2019, 21:03

victorsra wrote:About pysical aspects, It doesn't matter if a men's match is more physical, what matters is how the 2 teams in the field produce the spectacle. People watch an immense load of crap men's matches in many sports and watch them. We do that in this forum. We don't prefer to watch Romania vs Germany instead of Ireland vs England because we think it is better. We watch because we like the teams, they mean things. A 2nd tier match of any sport can be as enjoyable as any top diviison match even if much worse physicaly and technicaly. What is really behind is the social meaning of the sport and the match.

That also helps explaining why some sports are more popular than others. It is not because one sports is "more enjoyable" than the other, when we compare big professional sports.

And that's the crap about the argument women's sports are no good. They can be good and they can be bad. Just like a men's match. If there are more bad matches than good matches (in terms of emotion) it is because teams are not well prepared, and not because they can't be. What really changes is the will (voluntary or involuntary) of the male audience to watch and enjoy. And this only changes with the time.


In other words, it doesn't need to be better. It needs to be good enough.

Anyone that likes seven-a-side would be a big hypocrite to say the Women's series is crap. It is already great to watch the top teams. But the worst teams it is not. A bit obvious if we look of the state of the game in each country and how they deal with sevens.



Look, the simple reason men and woman’s sports aren’t followed equally is because women aren’t as athletic as men. That’s not cultural, that’s biological. Men produce the better quality sports because they have a natural advantage here, and people want to watch the strongest and the fastest in pro sport. That’s not to say the girls aren’t also playing their best, it’s just never going to be the same product, and a different product will attract different audiences. It’s not fair, but life isn’t always fair.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 12:16

Fundamentally disagree with some of the points in fact people are missing the point. it is not just about having a salary if you going to be in contracted by a club regardless of the sport they should have the same terms and conditions basic employment rights. No one here has provided a solid argument as to why women shouldn't be given a salary or fair contract.

As far I am concerned if a female trains the same hours and plays same amount of games it stands to reason they should be given a contract, semi professional or professional depend on the level of Rugby or football from the original article that I published,. Victor has been correct in some of his arguments.

I don't see why a male player gets a match payment in an amateur setting and female don't and they train equal amount of time.. Again I see arguments against women's sport and no solution how to improve women's participation and development.

I have come across in several countries where the male section of club plays a lower level of Rugby to the Women's and still get preferential treatment.

It is not surprising to see countries with Women's Rugby in such a quagmire including Argentina.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 13:05

Thomas wrote:I have come across in several countries where the male section of club plays a lower level of Rugby to the Women's and still get preferential treatment.

Lower level counting from the top, but maybe better level counting from the bottom....
I mean, if in a nation there are five levels of men's rugby and one level of women's rugby, is it the women's first and only level better than the second men's level? I'd say the answer is no.
An other example: imagine there's a club, here in Italy, managing men's teams of football, rugby and netball. The football's one is in serie B, the rugby one is in serie C, the netball's one is in serie A. Should the netball team be payed more than the football one, and should it have better facilities or at least as good facilities as the football's one? I very doubt that, because to be a serie B player here is a very very difficult task and it means to have thousands of followers, while basically no one plays netball and no one watches it.
It's a market matter; no one may pretend to be payed just by the fact that he plays a sport, only who creates sponsors' or tickets' revenues may ask a part of them.

On the general question about women and sport, I'm definitively not an expert but I tend to agree with Thatrugbyguy: the lesser interest of women toward sport seems to me more a biological factor than a cultural one. But of course I may be wrong

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 13:18

Well, think of it this way, you've now got to find more money. See, everything about women's sport comes down to finances. Literally. The reason the men get the preferential treatment is they bring in the supporters, whether it's professional or amateur. In an ideal world yes, women would get paid the same. But, as long as they are competing with men in the same sport they will always play second fiddle. I already used the example of Netball as an example of a female dominated sport that thrives, and you have things like Gymnastics and Figure Skating which are female dominated, so it's not like women's sport doesn't exist or can't thrive. The issue is with the sports that are male dominated, the girls cannot compete for the marketshare and finances when they are producing a different product. The WNBA is probably the longest surviving women's professional league in the world and yet it's never once made a profit in its 20 year history. It's no use arguing the girls are putting in the same effort, no one is denying that, but they're disadvantaged but being genetically smaller than men and thus produce a reduced style of the same sport. I think most people understand the problem. The issue is there's no easy solution to it.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby carbonero » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 14:03

Thomas wrote:As far I am concerned if a female trains the same hours and plays same amount of games it stands to reason they should be given a contract, semi professional or professional depend on the level of Rugby or football from the original article that I published,. Victor has been correct in some of his arguments.

It is an amateur sport. She doesn’t train the same hours than the male section and she plays half the games. And if you force UAI Urquiza to pay her a salary, they go bust immediately because their female section doesn’t bring any money into the table.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 14:07

carbonero wrote:
Thomas wrote:As far I am concerned if a female trains the same hours and plays same amount of games it stands to reason they should be given a contract, semi professional or professional depend on the level of Rugby or football from the original article that I published,. Victor has been correct in some of his arguments.

It is an amateur sport. She doesn’t train the same hours than the male section and she plays half the games. And if you force UAI Urquiza to pay her a salary, they go bust immediately because their female section doesn’t bring any money into the table.


it should never be about profit, if you are saying that a women's section of a club should bring money then is the wrong approach and directors need to look at themselves and the culture of the club. if the club is paying Male players even though they are Amateur then they should look at the business models, far too many amateur clubs paying players have gone bust. it sounds to me they want their cake and eat it.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby carbonero » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 14:11

They are professional football club that has an amateur section including women’s football, rugby, basketball, handball, volleyball, field hockey and gymnastics.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 14:23

carbonero wrote:They are professional football club that has an amateur section including women’s football, rugby, basketball, handball, volleyball, field hockey and gymnastics.

Using that analogy, then Professional Sports clubs if they want to expand their base have and must treat their women's section better. I am not naive to the fact that they will get paid less than the Men's section but treating them as an afterthought in my opinion becomes sexism by some of the clubs.

I keep hearing arguments as to why Women's athletes should be compensated but I don't hear argument how they plan to fix the problem. Back to Rugby I would love to see proper Women's sections instead of having a token team. they need to invest in the sections properly as these players as someone stated recently are the future of the club when a lot of this women become mothers they will dictate where their kids go and play sport and if clubs are treating them badly will not send their children to play rugby that is a fact.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby carbonero » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 14:31

Thomas wrote:Using that analogy, then Professional Sports clubs if they want to expand their base have and must treat their women's section better. I am not naive to the fact that they will get paid less than the Men's section but treating them as an afterthought in my opinion becomes sexism by some of the clubs.

They are treating their women section as they treat every amateur sport. The gymnastics team puts the same hours as the female football team. Why does one get paid and not the other?

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 14:32

England 41-12 France

England in total control of this match with 7 minutes to go, France never settled and have many uncharacteristic mistakes particularly in the first Half.

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