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Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 08:50

NedRugby wrote:victorsra: (Long and detailed post about women's rugby and the problems they face)

iul: Stop attacking me

victorsra: (Longer and more detailed post about women's rugby and women's sport in general)

iul: Dude, enough personal attacks already. Just admit I'm right.

His long posts were full of personal attacks and not much else.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 08:52

victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:Again, having to resort to personal attacks, meanwhile, if you have a look at some science you can see there simply are differences between stuff men like and women like:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Interests

Women like other stuff and that's OK, you don't have to launch a bizarre multigenerational quest to make them like what men like.

Also, someone having a different opinion than yours isn't harassment


Go to Google Academic or any academic search engine and search by yourself on gender studies to understand the size of the field. Btw, have you read those articles or only picked to "prove"? And, as you certainly read it, can you post the pdf link of this one https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm? Sorry, coudn't find it, but I am curious to read it, the description really suggests many biases. Always remember the so assertive pre-WWII science of evolution many intriguing articles...

You can have whatever opinion you want, but why are you discussing womens rugby if you dont care and dont like it? I cant see a positive reason. So, why are you here?

Btw, have you ever been friends with rugby women? Do you ever knew girls that play since young age? Do you ever discussed deeply rugby with a woman?

I already linked scientific studies. They all show there are differences in what men and women like, and that's OK. We don't have to look at women's choices as inferior and try to make them like what men like.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 09:07

victorsra wrote:Whose common sense? Obviously nature influences, but culture more. And it is not me talking. More than this, as we are inside society it is difficult to see limits by ourselves or by "common sense".


Let's say you are correct that culture matters more, how exactly do you change the perception of women's sport not being as good as mens sport when there are clear differences in athletic ability between the sexes? The men are always going to produce the faster runners, the longer kickers, the harder tacklers, this is just a natural advantage they're always going to have. Men and women will produce different enough versions of the same sport that one will suffer a disadvantage.

I enjoy women's rugby, I'm probably one of the few people in my rugby circles who does, but it comes with the understanding they way the girls play is not going to be as intense or as fast as the mens. The problem being, some people only want to watch the biggest and the strongest, and even as someone who enjoys women's rugby I can't argue and say they are wrong when they say it's too slow. If they can't accept the slower speed of the game then they will never be won over. Now multiply that by a lot of people and you start to see the difficult position women's sport is in.

And I don't think there's an easy solution to that. If there's a clear difference in the style of play, then one is naturally going to be looked at as better to watch that the other. It's a bit like Sevens rugby, not everyone likes it. I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm happy to have an honest conversation about something like this, and I understand 100% why women feel like their sports get overlooked, but we've got understand the reasons for it. If everyone can be honest about the reasons, or at the very least be open to all the possibilities, then maybe some solutions can be found.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 13:00

iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:Again, having to resort to personal attacks, meanwhile, if you have a look at some science you can see there simply are differences between stuff men like and women like:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Interests

Women like other stuff and that's OK, you don't have to launch a bizarre multigenerational quest to make them like what men like.

Also, someone having a different opinion than yours isn't harassment


Go to Google Academic or any academic search engine and search by yourself on gender studies to understand the size of the field. Btw, have you read those articles or only picked to "prove"? And, as you certainly read it, can you post the pdf link of this one https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm? Sorry, coudn't find it, but I am curious to read it, the description really suggests many biases. Always remember the so assertive pre-WWII science of evolution many intriguing articles...

You can have whatever opinion you want, but why are you discussing womens rugby if you dont care and dont like it? I cant see a positive reason. So, why are you here?

Btw, have you ever been friends with rugby women? Do you ever knew girls that play since young age? Do you ever discussed deeply rugby with a woman?

I already linked scientific studies. They all show there are differences in what men and women like, and that's OK. We don't have to look at women's choices as inferior and try to make them like what men like.


I have asked you plenty of answers and you avoid them. Claim personal attack is a great strategy lf avoiding answers.

Anyone who does science knows a random link us not enough. There is a CERN scientist trying to prove women are less inteligent. If you have read the discription of the article you sent they have a political motivation. But I dont have the paper itself to read and see if it makes sense. The fact that I coudnt find reviews about it an only a alt-right website praising it says plenty.

Start anwering what I asked. Why are you here? Womens sports and rugby are growing year by year, there is no sense in claiming women dont like sports.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 13:05

thatrugbyguy wrote:
victorsra wrote:Whose common sense? Obviously nature influences, but culture more. And it is not me talking. More than this, as we are inside society it is difficult to see limits by ourselves or by "common sense".


Let's say you are correct that culture matters more, how exactly do you change the perception of women's sport not being as good as mens sport when there are clear differences in athletic ability between the sexes? The men are always going to produce the faster runners, the longer kickers, the harder tacklers, this is just a natural advantage they're always going to have. Men and women will produce different enough versions of the same sport that one will suffer a disadvantage.

I enjoy women's rugby, I'm probably one of the few people in my rugby circles who does, but it comes with the understanding they way the girls play is not going to be as intense or as fast as the mens. The problem being, some people only want to watch the biggest and the strongest, and even as someone who enjoys women's rugby I can't argue and say they are wrong when they say it's too slow. If they can't accept the slower speed of the game then they will never be won over. Now multiply that by a lot of people and you start to see the difficult position women's sport is in.

And I don't think there's an easy solution to that. If there's a clear difference in the style of play, then one is naturally going to be looked at as better to watch that the other. It's a bit like Sevens rugby, not everyone likes it. I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm happy to have an honest conversation about something like this, and I understand 100% why women feel like their sports get overlooked, but we've got understand the reasons for it. If everyone can be honest about the reasons, or at the very least be open to all the possibilities, then maybe some solutions can be found.


I guess I have written about this before. It doesnt matter if men are naturaly faster and stronger. Everybody watches crap men's sports too and we like them when the competition itself is good. If we only liked the best of the best we'd be only watching the All Blacks. I dont pretend to say women rugby will be as good as mens rugby. It only needs to be good enough. And obviously I know market will tell how much each athlete and team values. But there is room for evolution of the womens game and room for future professionalism. It is a not fast process.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 13:19

thatrugbyguy wrote:
victorsra wrote:About men vs women interests, there is plenty of reserches showing how women general interest in sports is growing. The latest I received: https://nielsensports.com/women-sport-report-download/

Which really poses the question: how is that true women dont like sports? The real problem here is to improve women competitions itself, which is really a recent problem, as the growth is recent. They don't even need to be at the same level of interest. And obviously you need to remember men are not equal between them, women are not equal between them.


No-ones saying women don't like sports, but their reasons for liking it and the sports they are drawn to are generally different to men. Gymnastics, Figure Skating, Tennis, these are all sports women are drawn to. It's the contact sports like football and rugby that struggle. If you can find a way to entice women to pay for women's sports then your problem will be solved, because that is the main issue at the moment. The main watchers of women's sport at present are men. You won't get any improvement in terms of money and marketing if you can't attract more women to watch women's sport.


But women are indeed playing more football codes and watching men's football codes more than ever and growing. And they are cheering and not only there for men's interest. Crowd studies show the change in approach. I have done field research on that for my university and there is a clear change in the pattern of how and why they are there. It doesnt even need to be the majority of women switching from . A decent % of it is enough to sustain womens competitions. Again, the shift is not fast. It is a similar problem of why rugby or football prevail in a country.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 14:09

victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:Again, having to resort to personal attacks, meanwhile, if you have a look at some science you can see there simply are differences between stuff men like and women like:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Interests

Women like other stuff and that's OK, you don't have to launch a bizarre multigenerational quest to make them like what men like.

Also, someone having a different opinion than yours isn't harassment


Go to Google Academic or any academic search engine and search by yourself on gender studies to understand the size of the field. Btw, have you read those articles or only picked to "prove"? And, as you certainly read it, can you post the pdf link of this one https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm? Sorry, coudn't find it, but I am curious to read it, the description really suggests many biases. Always remember the so assertive pre-WWII science of evolution many intriguing articles...

You can have whatever opinion you want, but why are you discussing womens rugby if you dont care and dont like it? I cant see a positive reason. So, why are you here?

Btw, have you ever been friends with rugby women? Do you ever knew girls that play since young age? Do you ever discussed deeply rugby with a woman?

I already linked scientific studies. They all show there are differences in what men and women like, and that's OK. We don't have to look at women's choices as inferior and try to make them like what men like.


I have asked you plenty of answers and you avoid them. Claim personal attack is a great strategy lf avoiding answers.

Anyone who does science knows a random link us not enough. There is a CERN scientist trying to prove women are less inteligent. If you have read the discription of the article you sent they have a political motivation. But I dont have the paper itself to read and see if it makes sense. The fact that I coudnt find reviews about it an only a alt-right website praising it says plenty.

Start anwering what I asked. Why are you here? Womens sports and rugby are growing year by year, there is no sense in claiming women dont like sports.

You haven't been able to show me a single study showing that found no interest differences between men and women.
I'm here because I want to.
Just because sport watching is growing among women it doesn't mean there are no differences between what women and men like.
Again, I'm perfectly fine with letting women like what they like, you're the one with the bizarre opinion that they should be made to like what men like.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 15:33

You haven't answered all I asked. You don't have no interest in women's rugby, you don't want to contribute to anything here.

You haven't even read the articles you sent. As I am not cynic enough to show articles I never read I'll give you a couple of academic books that I touched in the past or articles possible to access and see how diverse they are between them. It is a kickstart to make your own questions, not the truth. There's plenty more, in many languages.

https://books.google.com.br/books?hl=pt ... ts&f=false

https://books.google.com.br/books?hl=pt ... ts&f=false

https://journals.humankinetics.com/doi/ ... j.28.2.151

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43610594?s ... b_contents

About the article you showed claiming scientific approach, as I coudn't read it, the abstract says:

"this sex difference occurs in all societies described thus far, from hunters and gatherers to large contemporary societies. For example, in every society with available data, males participate in sports at least twice as much as females in terms of frequency or duration".

If that is what it says, it is a perspective of biology authors very unaware of pre-historical archeology and anthorpology debates over ... well, anything. Not a single pre-historian or anhropologist would take this sort of data to draw such conclusions. If he does, it is just bad science, like those scientists pre-WWII that claimed black people were unsmart because the white civilization prevailed. Utterly naive. It doesn't tackle the reasons of the data. Is going round in circles over the surface. But again, you haven't provided me the proper article to read. It looks like they have one clear interest: "Most notably, Title IX is a U.S. law that prohibits sexual discrimination in educational opportunities, including sports, and Title IX is generally implemented under the assumption that females' sports interest is intrinsically equal to that of males. The present research indicates that this implementation may require revision". Which is the debate they are stablishing the dialogue?

You know, science is not "i have an answer, now I need to prove it". It is "i have a question, and that's it". The question here is how is it true women don't like contact team sports if their interest is growing and if the social barriers changed really recently? We are talking about very few generations and strong barriers around. Look at the history of science the sort of conclusions they drew throughout history about gender, race, etc. Scientists are people of their time, as any one of us. The good method always need the good question.

Also, modern sports were created in the 18th-19th century (i won't enter here in the debate over folk games) in a men's controlled world. You need to understand the fabric of the period to unveil the forces that make it the way it were.

Just because sport watching is growing among women it doesn't mean there are no differences between what women and men like.


Again, I'm perfectly fine with letting women like what they like, you're the one with the bizarre opinion that they should be made to like what men like.

That's your conclusion about what I wrote? Really? Man, I can't change my opinion about you.

It is bizarre you can't understand my whole point. It doesn't matter if today more men than women like sports. It doesn't even matter if one day there'll be the same numbers for both genders. What matters is that women's sports can grow with time because more women (not all, not necessarily even the majority, but definitly more than today) can broke cultural barriers if there are less iuls in the world. Capisce? Is it going to lead to a world where women's sports are at the same level of men's and with equal shared interest? Don't know, probably not, but clearly it is not what matters.

Besides, I really believe it is important to question now about how young people (of any sex) expect and want from traditional sports. This will influence everything.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 15:39

There is a divergence of opinions here and I get it and for some a Women's section is too much but lets stay on the topic.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 13 Feb 2019, 13:59

victorsra wrote:But women are indeed playing more football codes and watching men's football codes more than ever and growing. And they are cheering and not only there for men's interest. Crowd studies show the change in approach. I have done field research on that for my university and there is a clear change in the pattern of how and why they are there. It doesnt even need to be the majority of women switching from . A decent % of it is enough to sustain womens competitions. Again, the shift is not fast. It is a similar problem of why rugby or football prevail in a country.


But paying for and competing in are two different things though. I've known numerous women who compete in local womens team sports but don't care to pay for women's sport. Again, the issue isn't about higher participation rates, it's that they're not paying to watch it professionally. The only way you get more money into women's sport is if people pay to watch it. Here's an example from down here. The first AFL women's league was launched down here 3 years ago, the crowds averaged between 5,000 - 20,000. But entry was free, meaning there was a lot of good will, but no value on the league, and if people expect to watch these game for free then they're never going to take the women's version of the sport seriously. Now I don't think free entry was a bad idea for the first year but 2 seasons later nothing has changed and the crowds, TV ratings and interest has dropped more and more.

Taking it back to rugby, the Wallaroos playing the Black Ferns alongside the Wallabies and All Black was a good idea, but the longer the women play as the undercard match at the same venue on the same day, their match will never be able to develop their own identity. The Women's 6 nations has it the right idea, most, if not all of the matches, are played at different venues on different days to the mens, and as far as I know you have to pay for tickets. This allows their competition to develop its own identity and develop its own value. This is why I'm against playing the Women's Rugby World Cup along side the mens, because it means their World Cup no longer has an identity of its own. My wish is for the Wallaroos vs Black Ferns game to be played the night before the Bledisloe at a smaller venue. There's no reason we couldn't get 15,000 - 20,000 there with the right marketing, marketing that has to cater to more women.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 15:52

Not a very legal request: do you know if there's a (simple) way to bypass the geoblock for today evening's match Italy v Ireland?
It will be shown live also on youtube but not for the people connected from Italy and Ireland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fim5OzuFNKk

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 16:42

FT Spain 41 - 0 Russia

In spite of the score, Russia looked remarkably good considering inactivity.

Yunque has been quite critical of both his team and the value of the game in press conference. Not happy at all with uncontested scrums and too many stoppages, claims lack of effective playing time downs both the level of the game and the show, moving REWC even further away from W6N.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 17:52

Canalina wrote:Not a very legal request: do you know if there's a (simple) way to bypass the geoblock for today evening's match Italy v Ireland?
It will be shown live also on youtube but not for the people connected from Italy and Ireland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fim5OzuFNKk

https://clipmega.com/watch?v=Fim5OzuFNKk
That might work. If not, then try Hola. It's an extension for your browser

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 17:58

Thank you, but I think to have found a good streaming about RTE 2, the irish tv

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 18:39

Of course no one link works now. It was fine one hour ago when there was a documentary about New Zealand but it can't start now :roll:
And I have not Chrome of Firefox, so Hola doesn't work. Ok, I will not watch Italy v Ireland

Uh, it started just now!

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 19:57



Live coverage

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 20:08

Unfortunately it's geoblocked wherever the 6N think the local broadcaster is making good use of TV rights...

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 20:14

you can't watch it? even though you are in Spain?

too many mistakes and handling errors. this game can go either way in the final 10

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 20:16

Yep, blocked here.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 20:17

impressed with Italy, impressed with line speed. Ireland Penalty count very high

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 20:21


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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 20:30

What a Victory! wow Italy beats Ireland for the first time ever.

Fully Deserved.

Italy 29 - Ireland 27

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 22:12

Mmh, yes, not bad Image

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Canalina » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 22:15

Unfortunately I can't read the table, but surely at the head there's some superpower like England or France Image

Image

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby johnbirch » Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 22:29

Thomas wrote:What a Victory! wow Italy beats Ireland for the first time ever.

First time in the Six Nations... second time ever.

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