Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Country of origin

Posts: 210
Joined: Tue, 29 Apr 2014, 10:00
National Flag:
FranceFrance

Country of origin

Postby getienne » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 13:13

An interesting article, published on the site Rugby365.com :
https://rugby365.com/countries/argentina/119421

To quote the beginning of the article :
There is a belief that it is New Zealand who steals players galore from the (other) islands and that they wouldn’t be nearly as good otherwise.
We have looked at some of the players in squads during the November Tests. The lists may not be complete, but they give an indication of who the main recipients have been – and the main donors.
There are lots of names; errors and omissions are inevitable, but it will certainly give a rough idea.
We have included Canada, Hong Kong, Germany and Kenya as they played in World Cup qualifiers in November
An interesting exercise would be to formulate one’s preconceived ideas about who had the most “foreigners” and who donated the most players to other countries and where New Zealand stands on the list.


Briefly :
Not Born in the Country Playing For (excerpt) :
New Zealand : 4
Australia :10
Samoa : 18
Scotland : 13
Tonga : 14
etc ... (complete list on the site)

"Donors" :
New Zealand: 48
South Africa: 37
England: 20
Australia: 11
Tonga: 9
Fiji: 7
etc ...

User avatar
Posts: 2660
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: Country of origin

Postby 4N » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 13:27

Kenya’s William Reeve is from Wales.

Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Country of origin

Postby Tobar » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 13:41

Full List here:

Not Born in the Country Playing For
England: 10
France: 5
Ireland: 10
Scotland: 13
Wales: 9
Italy: 10
Australia: 10
New Zealand: 4
Japan: 11
USA: 13
Canada: 4
Germany: 15
Hong Kong: 17
Fiji: 3
Samoa: 18
Tonga: 14
Argentina: 0
Georgia: 0
Kenya: 0
South Africa: 0

Donors
New Zealand: 48
South Africa: 37
England: 20
Australia: 11
Tonga: 9
Fiji: 7
Wales: 3
Zimbabwe: 3
Hong Kong: 2
Ireland: 2
Samoa: 2
Scotland: 2
USA: 2
Cameroon: 1
Canada: 1
Guinea: 1
Guinea-Bissau: 1
Namibia: 1
New Caledonia: 1
Papua New Guinea: 1
Spain: 1


As noted, Kenya has at least 1 born outside the country. The list also curiously does not have the Vunipola brothers for England. I imagine that the list is strictly from the last tour in which they were both injured but given the regularity of them in the squad they should be included. The list should have been traced back further to at least the beginning of the year. AJ MacGinty wasn't included in the list either and he plays a very large part in the USA squad.

Posts: 1013
Joined: Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 09:56
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: Country of origin

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 15:03

Not my fav poster over here but Beeman is saying this for years.

Posts: 272
Joined: Sat, 31 May 2014, 21:12
National Flag:
FranceFrance

Re: Country of origin

Postby vino_93 » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 15:03

You can be born in a country but leave it very early (between 0-8 y/o f.e.), and so be more from the new country than the birth. Many players from Samoa moved very young and start learning rugby in NZ or Australia.

Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:40
Location: Europe
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Country of origin

Postby Thomas » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 15:34

That's the Pichot list published on twitter is a bit duplicitous as it doesn't take in consideration people British People born in one of the home countries with parents from the country they are playing for.

Right idea, wrong way to go about it. particularly with Wales and Scotland.

Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Country of origin

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 15:55

Thomas wrote:That's the Pichot list published on twitter is a bit duplicitous as it doesn't take in consideration people British People born in one of the home countries with parents from the country they are playing for.


Sorry, but I a disagree here. This rule is only in place because of 3,5 regions ehm sorry "countries", in Britain have "national" teams. So no reason for another exception. If it wasn't for Britain we would have most likely the citizenship as the deciding factor. A rule that would make way more sense. If this is changed, we can talk about parents and where exactly they were born within your country. Before that, we should not.

Btw. citizenship would be a very, very interesting thing to look at. Germany's numbers i.e. would decrease by at least 50%.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:40
Location: Europe
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Country of origin

Postby Thomas » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 16:15

For the record I am Australian via Mexico, there are many permutations with country of Origin and citizenship and births don't I know it :) :) and you are right there are issues with Britain and National Countries particularly with England, Scotland and Wales, they usually come to the fore during the Commonwealth games. Should Rugby or Football be an exemption? Good question I don't know.

However I don't agree the way the list was published, it was done without proper explanation or meaning also on the eve of Argentina's last November game.

Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Country of origin

Postby Tobar » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 16:54

vino_93 wrote:You can be born in a country but leave it very early (between 0-8 y/o f.e.), and so be more from the new country than the birth. Many players from Samoa moved very young and start learning rugby in NZ or Australia.


Right, the Vunipolas are prime examples. Born to Tongan parents in Australia and New Zealand, moved to Wales as a child and then moved to England for school. They could’ve each represented 4 different countries so it shows that not everyone fits into this neat package of country of origin.

But one thing can be taken from this article is that New Zealand does not currently have many PI born players who moved at a young age (only 3 born elsewhere according to this shortlist) Plenty have PI names and their parents are likely from those countries but they were born in NZ.

Posts: 23
Joined: Wed, 04 Jan 2017, 15:43
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Country of origin

Postby Masochist » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 17:52

This article seems to be poorly researched. A couple of the German players are wrong as well. Pierre Mathurin and Mark Fairhurst were not in the squad this autumn, while Samy Füchsel and Julius Nostadt were born in Germany.

User avatar
Posts: 1919
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: Country of origin

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 19:51

DON'T JUDGE Paul Dobson TOO HARSH
HE SHOULD BE IN HIS LATE 70s, AT LEAST

EDIT: SORRY, HE WAS BORN IN 1935

Posts: 1691
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Country of origin

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 20:21

Tobar wrote:Full List here:

Not Born in the Country Playing For
England: 10
France: 5
Ireland: 10
Scotland: 13
Wales: 9
Italy: 10
Australia: 10
New Zealand: 4
Japan: 11
USA: 13
Canada: 4
Germany: 15
Hong Kong: 17
Fiji: 3
Samoa: 18
Tonga: 14
Argentina: 0
Georgia: 0
Kenya: 0
South Africa: 0

Donors
New Zealand: 48
South Africa: 37
England: 20
Australia: 11
Tonga: 9
Fiji: 7
Wales: 3
Zimbabwe: 3
Hong Kong: 2
Ireland: 2
Samoa: 2
Scotland: 2
USA: 2
Cameroon: 1
Canada: 1
Guinea: 1
Guinea-Bissau: 1
Namibia: 1
New Caledonia: 1
Papua New Guinea: 1
Spain: 1


As noted, Kenya has at least 1 born outside the country. The list also curiously does not have the Vunipola brothers for England. I imagine that the list is strictly from the last tour in which they were both injured but given the regularity of them in the squad they should be included. The list should have been traced back further to at least the beginning of the year. AJ MacGinty wasn't included in the list either and he plays a very large part in the USA squad.


Well the disclaimer was the November Tests and therefore incomplete.

Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Country of origin

Postby Tobar » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 21:39

I'm aware, just saying that it's missing key players so has to be taken with a big grain of salt.

Posts: 1515
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Country of origin

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 22:00

getienne wrote:An interesting article, published on the site Rugby365.com :
https://rugby365.com/countries/argentina/119421

To quote the beginning of the article :
There is a belief that it is New Zealand who steals players galore from the (other) islands and that they wouldn’t be nearly as good otherwise.
We have looked at some of the players in squads during the November Tests. The lists may not be complete, but they give an indication of who the main recipients have been – and the main donors.
There are lots of names; errors and omissions are inevitable, but it will certainly give a rough idea.
We have included Canada, Hong Kong, Germany and Kenya as they played in World Cup qualifiers in November
An interesting exercise would be to formulate one’s preconceived ideas about who had the most “foreigners” and who donated the most players to other countries and where New Zealand stands on the list.


Briefly :
Not Born in the Country Playing For (excerpt) :
New Zealand : 4
Australia :10
Samoa : 18
Scotland : 13
Tonga : 14
etc ... (complete list on the site)

"Donors" :
New Zealand: 48
South Africa: 37
England: 20
Australia: 11
Tonga: 9
Fiji: 7
etc ...


Okay, yes. There are currently 10 foreign born players in the Wallabies but it's not as clear cut as many assume. Of those 9 only four came to Australia at the age's of 18 or over. The rest moved to Australia as children. David Pocock was the oldest at 13 while most came over why still under 5. Same with the Vunipola's. They moved to the UK are young children. They've grown up there.

Posts: 1363
Joined: Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:40
Location: Europe
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Country of origin

Postby Thomas » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 22:11

Why did Pichot publish it ? The research has not been properly done. There are enough issues in Argentina to worry about rather than publish some stats with incomplete data.

Posts: 512
Joined: Wed, 11 Jun 2014, 07:45
National Flag:
ArgentinaArgentina

Re: Country of origin

Postby carbonero » Thu, 13 Dec 2018, 22:27

Argentina’s 0% isn’t true as well. Sebastian Cancelliere was born in the US. I thought this corner of place of birth was only reserved for numbnuts like Paul Tait.

Why he did it? He wants to go after the grandparent rule. However, he shot himself in the foot. Now he is running out of political capital.

Posts: 66
Joined: Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 01:18
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Country of origin

Postby ShyLockNo5 » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 02:50

Is there a way to ascertain, of those that migrated to another country when their kid was 1-15 (for example), how many of them were rugby players? That is, we're not talking natural migration but a self-selected group.

Like all good parents, people like Eddie Ioane, Feʻao Vunipola, DavidSio etc knew what was going to happen down the track. If their sons were any good, they'd play for their new, much richer nation; if they were that good, they always had the option of playing for the land of their forefathers.

Posts: 1515
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Country of origin

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 03:15

ShyLockNo5 wrote:Is there a way to ascertain, of those that migrated to another country when their kid was 1-15 (for example), how many of them were rugby players? That is, we're not talking natural migration but a self-selected group.

Like all good parents, people like Eddie Ioane, Feʻao Vunipola, DavidSio etc knew what was going to happen down the track. If their sons were any good, they'd play for their new, much richer nation; if they were that good, they always had the option of playing for the land of their forefathers.


Guys like Pocock had already been playing Rugby when they migrated but they didn't come over to play Rugby. I imagine it would be similar for guys like Haylett-Petty.

Regarding the likes of the Ioane's, Vunipola's and Sio's. Considering most of them moved to other nations either before their kids were born or when they were very young I would suggest they made those moves with an eye on the economic opportunities rather than 'one day my kid will play for X country'. The fact that they were international quality players themselves that produced offspring of the same level has less to do with planning and more to do with genetics in my opinion.

What I really don't like in this argument is the apparent assumptions going on. For someone like Pichot when he thinks of Australia he clearly thinks full of white people while completely ignoring that we are the economic powerhouse of the Oceania region and thus do attract significant migration from PI nations thanks to both that and geography. Similar story for NZ. It is not uncommon for kids of PI heritage to have either moved here at a very young age or be entirely born and raised here. In fact, at a cursory glance the majority of the PI community under the age of 40 these days are actually natural born Australian citizens.

I'm not saying there isn't a level of poaching albeit not as direct as many may assume. Before making these kinds of inflammatory arguments taking several factors into consideration should be done first.

Posts: 66
Joined: Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 01:18
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Country of origin

Postby ShyLockNo5 » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 04:37

Working Class Rugger wrote:
ShyLockNo5 wrote:Is there a way to ascertain, of those that migrated to another country when their kid was 1-15 (for example), how many of them were rugby players? That is, we're not talking natural migration but a self-selected group.

Like all good parents, people like Eddie Ioane, Feʻao Vunipola, DavidSio etc knew what was going to happen down the track. If their sons were any good, they'd play for their new, much richer nation; if they were that good, they always had the option of playing for the land of their forefathers.


Guys like Pocock had already been playing Rugby when they migrated but they didn't come over to play Rugby. I imagine it would be similar for guys like Haylett-Petty.

Regarding the likes of the Ioane's, Vunipola's and Sio's. Considering most of them moved to other nations either before their kids were born or when they were very young I would suggest they made those moves with an eye on the economic opportunities rather than 'one day my kid will play for X country'. The fact that they were international quality players themselves that produced offspring of the same level has less to do with planning and more to do with genetics in my opinion.

What I really don't like in this argument is the apparent assumptions going on. For someone like Pichot when he thinks of Australia he clearly thinks full of white people while completely ignoring that we are the economic powerhouse of the Oceania region and thus do attract significant migration from PI nations thanks to both that and geography. Similar story for NZ. It is not uncommon for kids of PI heritage to have either moved here at a very young age or be entirely born and raised here. In fact, at a cursory glance the majority of the PI community under the age of 40 these days are actually natural born Australian citizens.

I'm not saying there isn't a level of poaching albeit not as direct as many may assume. Before making these kinds of inflammatory arguments taking several factors into consideration should be done first.


Yup, I agree.
It used to bug me a lot when I read about some guy born in, say, Fiji, who ends up playing for NZ or Australia rather than Fiji. It was a case of the rich getting richer and all that.
But the Manu Tuilagi case settled the argument for me. Ultimately, players will play for which one gives them the best prospects, in terms of money, fame and chance of winning something. In Manu's case, he did with the full blessings of his brothers, so who are we to argue either way?

Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Country of origin

Postby Tobar » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 05:04

carbonero wrote:Argentina’s 0% isn’t true as well. Sebastian Cancelliere was born in the US. I thought this corner of place of birth was only reserved for numbnuts like Paul Tait.

Why he did it? He wants to go after the grandparent rule. However, he shot himself in the foot. Now he is running out of political capital.


What’s your issue with Paul?

Posts: 512
Joined: Wed, 11 Jun 2014, 07:45
National Flag:
ArgentinaArgentina

Re: Country of origin

Postby carbonero » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 05:39

He makes the lists about the birthplace of players before every major tournament which is the least nuanced way to approach this topic. Also, he supported Pichot’s tweet saying “the data is not accurate though the message sure is”. Give me a break

Posts: 1515
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Country of origin

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 07:34

ShyLockNo5 wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
ShyLockNo5 wrote:Is there a way to ascertain, of those that migrated to another country when their kid was 1-15 (for example), how many of them were rugby players? That is, we're not talking natural migration but a self-selected group.

Like all good parents, people like Eddie Ioane, Feʻao Vunipola, DavidSio etc knew what was going to happen down the track. If their sons were any good, they'd play for their new, much richer nation; if they were that good, they always had the option of playing for the land of their forefathers.


Guys like Pocock had already been playing Rugby when they migrated but they didn't come over to play Rugby. I imagine it would be similar for guys like Haylett-Petty.

Regarding the likes of the Ioane's, Vunipola's and Sio's. Considering most of them moved to other nations either before their kids were born or when they were very young I would suggest they made those moves with an eye on the economic opportunities rather than 'one day my kid will play for X country'. The fact that they were international quality players themselves that produced offspring of the same level has less to do with planning and more to do with genetics in my opinion.

What I really don't like in this argument is the apparent assumptions going on. For someone like Pichot when he thinks of Australia he clearly thinks full of white people while completely ignoring that we are the economic powerhouse of the Oceania region and thus do attract significant migration from PI nations thanks to both that and geography. Similar story for NZ. It is not uncommon for kids of PI heritage to have either moved here at a very young age or be entirely born and raised here. In fact, at a cursory glance the majority of the PI community under the age of 40 these days are actually natural born Australian citizens.

I'm not saying there isn't a level of poaching albeit not as direct as many may assume. Before making these kinds of inflammatory arguments taking several factors into consideration should be done first.


Yup, I agree.
It used to bug me a lot when I read about some guy born in, say, Fiji, who ends up playing for NZ or Australia rather than Fiji. It was a case of the rich getting richer and all that.
But the Manu Tuilagi case settled the argument for me. Ultimately, players will play for which one gives them the best prospects, in terms of money, fame and chance of winning something. In Manu's case, he did with the full blessings of his brothers, so who are we to argue either way?


Tulagi moved to the UK when he was 12. He came up through their system and has spent more than half his life in the UK. While he may not have been born there he still has significant skin in the country and has every right to represent it if he so chooses. Which he has obviously.

Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Country of origin

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 08:12

Thomas wrote:For the record I am Australian via Mexico

:lol:

Working Class Rugger wrote:What I really don't like in this argument is the apparent assumptions going on. For someone like Pichot when he thinks of Australia he clearly thinks full of white people while completely ignoring that we are the economic powerhouse of the Oceania region and thus do attract significant migration from PI nations thanks to both that and geography. Similar story for NZ. It is not uncommon for kids of PI heritage to have either moved here at a very young age or be entirely born and raised here. In fact, at a cursory glance the majority of the PI community under the age of 40 these days are actually natural born Australian citizens.


It would actually be a really interesting thing to have a look at those who moved under 12. I would bet a lot of money that ALL of those moved with their parents due to economic reasons (with the only excemption being the rare cases of some fathers who moved because of a pro-rugby-contract).

This is also something we will see way more often in the future. People can move more freely than ever before and the big winner of this will off course be rich nations in which people want to live in. But that's in many cases just a coincidence some nations profit from in rugby. But this also goes the other way round. If we are brutally honest, we will see that the PI nations rugby-wise are actually on the winning side of this development. They get players (in case of Samoa and Tonga a lot players), from setups they will never be able to afford in their small economies.

Just saw a video about an Australian school giving half-year-stipendium to 12-year-old Fiji boys who then also play rugby. Hell, why shouldn't they? Those Islands boys never before had the chance to spend some time abroad in a different environment. Why shouldn't they do what a lot of European kids have been doing for decades? If some PI kids get the chance to get different perspectives due to rugby that's really great.

Sometimes I get the feeling that those Pacific Islanders are more often seen as victims as they really are. They are free and smart individual beings, who know exactly what they want to do. They need no colonial-style protectionism. It is their decision which country they want to represent. And it is their conscience to decide if some decisions are driven by money or not (as long as they stick to the rules that is).

But this discussion is about how those rules should look like in the future. And I think that if the grand-parent-rule gets abolished, we need to get a citizenship rule added. Simply because we will otherwise have more cases than you think of citizens not being able to play for their country due to a way more "nomadic" life of the upper middle class especially in the EU (we've got kids in our club falling under this rule i.e.). And we need to be clear that, if we cut the grand-parent-rule, poor countries who feed from players just not making it in top nations, will suffer the most. And that is Samoa and Tonga.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 344
Joined: Tue, 29 Apr 2014, 14:51
National Flag:
Sri LankaSri Lanka

Re: Country of origin

Postby gibbs » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 13:10

Tobar wrote:Full List here:

Not Born in the Country Playing For
England: 10
France: 5
Ireland: 10
Scotland: 13
Wales: 9
Italy: 10
Australia: 10
New Zealand: 4
Japan: 11
USA: 13
Canada: 4
Germany: 15
Hong Kong: 17
Fiji: 3
Samoa: 18
Tonga: 14
Argentina: 0
Georgia: 0
Kenya: 0
South Africa: 0

Donors
New Zealand: 48
South Africa: 37
England: 20
Australia: 11
Tonga: 9
Fiji: 7
Wales: 3
Zimbabwe: 3
Hong Kong: 2
Ireland: 2
Samoa: 2
Scotland: 2
USA: 2
Cameroon: 1
Canada: 1
Guinea: 1
Guinea-Bissau: 1
Namibia: 1
New Caledonia: 1
Papua New Guinea: 1
Spain: 1


.


Lol.. Just look at the numbers for the number 1 and 2 ranked teams from Asia

Japan 11
Hong Kong 17 !!!!..

Add to that exclusive expat laden teams like the Philippines, UAE and Lebanon.. Asian Rugby is a farce run by old time Brits from Hong Kong.. Unfortunately teams like Malaysia seems to be going that way as well.. 2019 WC will basically will be hosted in Asia with little Asian participation

Posts: 2763
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Country of origin

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 14 Dec 2018, 13:46

gibbs wrote:Lol.. Just look at the numbers for the number 1 and 2 ranked teams from Asia

Japan 11
Hong Kong 17 !!!!..

Add to that exclusive expat laden teams like the Philippines, UAE and Lebanon.. Asian Rugby is a farce run by old time Brits from Hong Kong.. Unfortunately teams like Malaysia seems to be going that way as well.. 2019 WC will basically will be hosted in Asia with little Asian participation


I think that you can't talk about a farce, when your nation is willingly creating even a bigger farce by not playing a single game.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Next

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Armchair Fan, zgs and 18 guests