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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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6
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby Natal » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 10:24

On promotion/relegation and structure

I think Silver Fox's reading of the situation on the Italy/Georgia thread is worth restating here.

- The Six Nations will remain a closed shop, as they have repeatedly insisted. The world is unfair.
- A new 6-team TRC could relegate its bottom team annually. The existing four probably don't see relegation as a realistic threat. (Less sure about this; Castle seemed to accept the idea, but was understandably miffed about Morel's arrogance. The non-6N unions will regrettably have to compromise as they don't have the money or power).
- An annual four-team tournament in Europe at the end of the year between the four regional winners (REC, A6N, Africa Cup, Asia-Pacific PNC thing) would decide who replaces the bottom team in TRC.

On 'devaluing' the Six Nations

- The 6N happens at the start of the year and the start of the World League cycle. No-one will be thinking about the World League in February/March. They will focus on the 6N. Audiences will only turn their attention to the World League much later in the season.

On 'devaluing' the World Cup

- The two best teams played each other in Dublin last year. Quality-wise, this was probably a better game than any World Cup final. The World Cup is a different beast and fans know that. The World League just uses the existing framework of Autumn internationals and puts a trophy on it. I don't think fans will have problems differentiating. This is just my opinion, mind.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 11:14

If the RC teams agree to a situation where the 6N are guaranteed to avoid promotion and relegation then they are fools. It's all well and good to say the top 3 or 4 feel comfortable enough they could avoid it but it only takes one loss against Japan or Fiji for one of them to get relegated. For all the talk of Italy or Scotland or France losing money by playing in the REC, it would be significantly worse for Australia.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 11:26

I think World Rugby need to take a step back and reconsider their proposals. Including the 6N is meeting with strong resistance, this is because it is THE key revenue driver for half the teams and teams are loathe to mess about with it when it works so well.

So let's see where there has been widespread agreement: making the other internationals meaningful, having combined TV deal for those matches and a pathway that includes everyone. And let's see what structure can work in that.

It's very rugby to try and include everything in a perfect tournament rather than just seeing what works in practice and going with that.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 11:43

Wouldn't the simple answer be World Cup qualifiers? Seriously, wouldn't that be the easiest solution?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby iul » Sat, 02 Feb 2019, 21:36

But how would accepting promotion/relegation make money for ARU?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 06:04

Raelene says a lot of things that are out of her depth. Netball is not rugby and she ran the Bulldogs poorly. She's a bean counter and just sees much needed cash.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby NaBUru38 » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 14:53

Six Nations relegation would only benefit European tier 2 teams. Other tier 2 unions may support them. But New Zealand, Australia and South Africa don't care about it.

If Pichot is smart, he will bargain until he lets the Six Nations keep the status quo, and European tier 2 teams will have to fight for a spot at the Rugby Championship along the Americas, Asia-Pacific and African teams.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 17:33

Wouldn't the simple answer be World Cup qualifiers? Seriously, wouldn't that be the easiest solution?


Well, for T1s the Qualies would be boring and woudn't generate new money.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 17:41

The easiest solution for Pichot would be keep 6N the way it is, allow TRC to choose how they want expansion (if they are not dumb they will put Japan in) and solve T2s issue gving their competitions QFs spots in the World League. Something like making REC champions HOST a 6N team (the runners up of the 3rd) in July, same for ARC, PNC, AGC winners maybe playing between them a preliminary match also in July/August or facing a TRC side (Southern hemisphere can hold one more mid-year fixture, allowing Southern teams to play something of the World League at home).

And that's it. Much less traumatic and still not involving all major powers, which saves (a bit) RWC from devaluation.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 22:44

victorsra wrote:
Wouldn't the simple answer be World Cup qualifiers? Seriously, wouldn't that be the easiest solution?


Well, for T1s the Qualies would be boring and woudn't generate new money.


Not if we remove all the automatic qualifying places from RWC.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 23:16

Boring anyway. Everybody know T1s wont fail.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 03 Feb 2019, 23:29

victorsra wrote:Boring anyway. Everybody know T1s wont fail.


Well, lets break down the argument. If WR believes the June/November internationals lack meaning, something I don't agree with but they obviously do, and if the worry is a World League will devalue the World Cup, then making the global test schedule revolve around qualifying for the RWC solves both problems. The issue at the moment is there's no pressure on teams when it comes to RWC. Look at Australia for crying out loud, at the moment there's no urgency to improve the national team because we're assured a seat at the table, hence why we've been consistently under performing on the field for the past 10 years. The threat of failing to qualify for RWC suddenly changes things because it means teams like Australia, South Africa, Italy, France, have to get their shit in order. Frankly, this solves all the problems. You have you're internationals with more meaning, whilst not devaluing the World Cup. Many of us have been calling for a reduction in the number of automatic places at the world cup, well this is how you can do it.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Mon, 04 Feb 2019, 01:10

The main problem of the current tests is not it there are meaningless. It is that they are not generating money and a RWC Qualy won't do it, as there'll be zero extra interest for T1 fans. It would have basically the same interest as the tests have know, which looks to be not enough. That is the point, as there is ZERO threat of a T1 failing.

Like you, I do prefer zero automatic qualified teams and a proper Qualy. What I am saying is that it doesn't solve the problem that is the reason of this World League adventure.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 04 Feb 2019, 05:15

victorsra wrote:The main problem of the current tests is not it there are meaningless. It is that they are not generating money and a RWC Qualy won't do it, as there'll be zero extra interest for T1 fans. It would have basically the same interest as the tests have know, which looks to be not enough. That is the point, as there is ZERO threat of a T1 failing.

Like you, I do prefer zero automatic qualified teams and a proper Qualy. What I am saying is that it doesn't solve the problem that is the reason of this World League adventure.

Uh...All Northern Hemisphere T1 Tests generate tons of revenue. In fact, that's what funds the game in Northern Hemisphere T1s. In the Southern Hemisphere? They're not making money is their problem. Eden Park should be a cash cow. Heck, the REC for Georgia, Romania, and Spain generates revenue.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 04 Feb 2019, 05:50

victorsra wrote:The main problem of the current tests is not it there are meaningless. It is that they are not generating money and a RWC Qualy won't do it, as there'll be zero extra interest for T1 fans. It would have basically the same interest as the tests have know, which looks to be not enough. That is the point, as there is ZERO threat of a T1 failing.

Like you, I do prefer zero automatic qualified teams and a proper Qualy. What I am saying is that it doesn't solve the problem that is the reason of this World League adventure.


So you increase the threat. It's pretty straight forward. You give the 6N and RC a set number of places to qualify from, if they fail they get one more chance via playoffs/repechage. If they miss out then tough luck.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Mon, 04 Feb 2019, 14:58

But there is no threat in a short/medium term. And rugby's officials are only thinking about short term money. Sad? Yes. But T1s won't spend a decade+ waiting to have an interesting competition. If a RWC Qualy is to be put in place for everybody it will be something very short for T1s. We could think about many formats, I REALLY want a Qualy for everybody, but it won't play the role of what they want for the World League.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby NaBUru38 » Tue, 05 Feb 2019, 13:43

To make this proposal work, Pichot must convice the tier 1 unions that they can earn more money with this than with the current tours. And that means television money.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 05 Feb 2019, 13:56

victorsra wrote:But there is no threat in a short/medium term. And rugby's officials are only thinking about short term money. Sad? Yes. But T1s won't spend a decade+ waiting to have an interesting competition. If a RWC Qualy is to be put in place for everybody it will be something very short for T1s. We could think about many formats, I REALLY want a Qualy for everybody, but it won't play the role of what they want for the World League.


Let's look at it this way. Imagine the 6N doubles as World Cup qualifiers over a two year period, and lets say only the top 4 qualify automatically, well then, you've just increased the stakes for the teams playing. It means games with more intensity, which is more attractive to TV viewers. Look at the Italy vs Georgia match in November. It was effectively a 6N playoff match where both teams were out to prove something, and the intensity of the match was high. The teams that don't qualify playoff against T2/T3 nations. This gets more T1 v T2 games, and more exposure to T2 nations in mainstream rugby media.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 05 Feb 2019, 16:31

HAVE A THOUGHTFUL READ -- 6 articles from NZH

29 Jan, 2019 = World Rugby shakeup: Steve Tew arrives in Los Angeles for crunch talks
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12197794

30 Jan, 2019 = Chris Rattue: New World Rugby competition a life and death moment for the All Blacks
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12198570

31 Jan, 2019 = Rugby shakeup: Relying on better TV deal
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12198802

1 Feb, 2019 = Gregor Paul: World League won't save New Zealand rugby's sinking ship
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12200094

2 Feb, 2019 = Paul Lewis: How a global championship could save international rugby
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12200232

3 Feb, 2019 = John Hart sounds warning over global championship, state of New Zealand rugby
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/a ... d=12200374

:::

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby victorsra » Tue, 05 Feb 2019, 16:41

Let's look at it this way. Imagine the 6N doubles as World Cup qualifiers over a two year period, and lets say only the top 4 qualify automatically, well then, you've just increased the stakes for the teams playing. It means games with more intensity, which is more attractive to TV viewers. Look at the Italy vs Georgia match in November. It was effectively a 6N playoff match where both teams were out to prove something, and the intensity of the match was high. The teams that don't qualify playoff against T2/T3 nations. This gets more T1 v T2 games, and more exposure to T2 nations in mainstream rugby media.


But problem is: Europe will have 8.5 spots. None of the T1s are really at risk because to be at risk someone like Spain or Russia or Romania must beat them. It is not even about Georgia. And even if they lose to one of them it is not enough because they would still make a Top 8. They need to be beaten by 2 of them + Georgia.

In Oceania, it will be 4.5 spots? Again, Australia and NZ would need to be beaten twice by PI and even though they will qualify. South Africa isn't threatened by Namibia or Kenya, not even close, nor Argentina by Uruguay or Brazil....
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby Grayday88 » Tue, 05 Feb 2019, 16:44

So some TV figures from the weekend 8.2 million people watched the England Ireland game in the auk and 950k in the Irish Republic. Those figures are why having the six nations on terrestrial free to air TV matters so much to the home unions. There are few sporting events outside football that generate as much interest as the six nations and there is a feeling that this interest would be severely limited if the six nations was not free to air

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby fullbackace » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 02:03

victorsra wrote:
Let's look at it this way. Imagine the 6N doubles as World Cup qualifiers over a two year period, and lets say only the top 4 qualify automatically, well then, you've just increased the stakes for the teams playing. It means games with more intensity, which is more attractive to TV viewers. Look at the Italy vs Georgia match in November. It was effectively a 6N playoff match where both teams were out to prove something, and the intensity of the match was high. The teams that don't qualify playoff against T2/T3 nations. This gets more T1 v T2 games, and more exposure to T2 nations in mainstream rugby media.


But problem is: Europe will have 8.5 spots. None of the T1s are really at risk because to be at risk someone like Spain or Russia or Romania must beat them. It is not even about Georgia. And even if they lose to one of them it is not enough because they would still make a Top 8. They need to be beaten by 2 of them + Georgia.

In Oceania, it will be 4.5 spots? Again, Australia and NZ would need to be beaten twice by PI and even though they will qualify. South Africa isn't threatened by Namibia or Kenya, not even close, nor Argentina by Uruguay or Brazil....

Why not give qualifiers to top 2 4N and top 2 6N only, that way last top spot in the group will be up for grabs in the playoff.

Last 2 in 4N
Last 4 in 6N
Islanders
Japan
EU 1
Americas 1
Africa 1

so based on last years standings the tournament would be
Scotland, France, England, Italy, Oz, Argentina, Japan, Samoa, Fiji, Georgia, USA, Namibia

That'll sort out top 3 seeds for group stages.
_____________
rest of the Qualifiers + repechage

Asia 1
Oceania 3
Africa 2
EU 2/3
Americas 2/3
__________

Yea it's not perfect but that's what they should propose if nothing else cuts it. You can't just leave Rugby a closed shop forever.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 08:24

Grayday88 wrote:So some TV figures from the weekend 8.2 million people watched the England Ireland game in the auk and 950k in the Irish Republic. Those figures are why having the six nations on terrestrial free to air TV matters so much to the home unions. There are few sporting events outside football that generate as much interest as the six nations and there is a feeling that this interest would be severely limited if the six nations was not free to air


Absolutely.
I want to add a little number why Rugby needs to grow in other European countries. And it can only when the top teams play the REC teams regularly.
Viewing numbers on the Super Bowl are out in Germany. And they managed to draw 1,8 million viewers (also free-to-air-TV) at 1am on a Monday morning in the first quarter. That's what you can achieve, when you understand how to market your product in different markets.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 08:41

dropkick wrote:RBS offered over £13m for 4 years but Scottish and Welsh thought it was too low.
6N hired a consultancy firm to see how much the tournament was worth. They said the RBS offer was a good one.
Welsh and Scottish unions ignored their advice so the had to reject RBS's offer. RBS then withdrew their offer.
They'd no sponsor until Guinness stepped in but is only paying about £6m.

£6m for how many years :?:

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal

Postby Thomas » Wed, 06 Feb 2019, 09:52

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:
dropkick wrote:RBS offered over £13m for 4 years but Scottish and Welsh thought it was too low.
6N hired a consultancy firm to see how much the tournament was worth. They said the RBS offer was a good one.
Welsh and Scottish unions ignored their advice so the had to reject RBS's offer. RBS then withdrew their offer.
They'd no sponsor until Guinness stepped in but is only paying about £6m.

£6m for how many years :?:


The Irish brewer has secured the sponsorship for six years at a reduced rate. The Royal Bank of Scotland bowed out in 2016, unwilling to foot the £11m per year fee after it admitted that it is "not the global bank we once were."
The sponsorship reportedly went on the market with the initial asking price of £17m per year, which failed to attract any concrete offers. Last year, Natwest covered the Six nations paying a reported cut-price sum of £9m for the year.
Guinness will start at £6m for the 2019 tournament, almost half the price of RBS's deal. But the fee will increase for the duration of the six-year.

the UK£6 million fee is set to double by the end of the long-term arrangement.

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