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Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 14:44

Full-time - England 41-26 France

France woke up and score 2 quick tries but too little too late, the Grand Slam is on for England. Can they do the double this year??

Game was at Castle Park in Doncaster

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 15:05

Official Attendance 4,674 fans who packed out Castle Park in Doncaster today. nearly a full house. (Doncaster capacity is 5000)

Today's attendance was a record for a Women's England game ticketed home.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby johnbirch » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 16:29

Thomas wrote:Official Attendance 4,674 fans who packed out Castle Park in Doncaster today. nearly a full house. (Doncaster capacity is 5000)

Today's attendance was a record for a Women's England game ticketed home.

Its probabaly a record of any standalone test outside France

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby rey200 » Sun, 10 Feb 2019, 19:30

well I guess IT IS a cultural thing. But yeah, let's act if it is godgiven if people watch certain sports and how they think of female sports.

edit: what I want to say: there are many layers of why this or that sport is popular in a given country. And women sports tend to have less professional setups, less players and less cultural impact. People show up where success is to be expected and success is seen as such. If you say to a girl: it's not normal for a girl to play xyz then this will have an impact.
I also don't think that asking to make a field shorter or a net hang lower is always a bad idea. Women de facto run slowlier, so covering the same distance is going to be slowlier.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 00:54

I'll say this. The only way you increase the profile and market value of women's sports is if more women actually pay to see it. Men are the majority of the women's sports viewership, so, if anyone is not pulling their weight in this it's women. The problem with sports like rugby is they are seen as masculine games. If you can find a way to shift the image of women's rugby so that they are actually appealing to women then you may start to see a change in what the sports value is. How you do that I'm not so sure. The only solution I can think of is if the women athletes participate in and promote activities that appeal to female viewers. Instead of just saying how tough these girls are, what makes them likeable to other women? If the goal is to get more women watching and paying for women's sport, there has to be some level of feminine appeal outside of the players being fit, because that's not something that most women care for. I would look at Netball and try and find why that sport is one of the few exceptions in women's sport. What about that sport actually appeals to women?

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby Thomas » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 10:59

My view of women's Rugby or other similar sports is biased. I am involved heavily with women's teams at club level as a coach so I have first hand knowledge of their struggles and team management. irrespective of the genetics which is not the argument. I agree there is a skewed view of the value of the women's side of the sport but don't forget the original World Cups where setup by women because the then IRB couldn't be bothered or wouldn't support it. there has always been this tussled regarding incorporating women's sections in clubs.

To say women don't pull their weight is harsh there a lot of Women's sections that work hard to keep the club afloat and their sections running with much less resources than Men's. There a lot of issues but women's are only asking for parity and equal access to the resources that other teams get so surely that wouldn't be too much to ask?

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 13:54

Oh, there is without doubt a lot of hard working women in sport, players included, but it's the Jill Averages of the world that's the issue. I totally get why a lot of women players feel like they are left behind by their clubs, but the reality is there aren't that many people interested in what they do. If it's a question about fairness, as harsh as it sounds, the women's teams don't bring in the supporters or money, and that has to account for something in terms of who gets first pick of the resources. I'm not saying it's fair, it's not, but sport and how it's run, isn't fair.

If we want to have an honest conversation about trying to find solutions we have to first accept that when it comes to sport both men and women prefer to watch mens sport. If we can collectively agree to that then we can start to talk about what it is that makes women's sports less appealing, especially to women. We can look at successful women's sports like Netball and see what it is they are doing successfully. Maybe it's a case of some sports needing to make changes for the women's game to be more appealing, or maybe it's about how it's marketed. Trying to appeal to women by showing them athletic girls on the pitch playing hard and running around with the ball clearly isn't working, that's coming from a very male perspective because that's something we enjoy seeing. So we need to ask ourselves, what does a female version of that look like? Maybe it's case of showcasing the beauty of the sport and not the physicality, that just because a girl can tackle hard doesn't make her less of a woman. So perhaps show there's a grace and beauty to rugby in its own right. Find out what women appreciate, and work out at way to sell the sport with that in mind. Honestly, what is there to lose at this stage?

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 17:57

Thomas wrote:Official Attendance 4,674 fans who packed out Castle Park in Doncaster today. nearly a full house. (Doncaster capacity is 5000)

Today's attendance was a record for a Women's England game ticketed home.


I think it is not... there is the 2010 Women's Rugby Wolrd Cup.... the final at the Stoop had what? 10.000? don't remember.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 18:54

Thomas wrote:My view of women's Rugby or other similar sports is biased. I am involved heavily with women's teams at club level as a coach so I have first hand knowledge of their struggles and team management. irrespective of the genetics which is not the argument. I agree there is a skewed view of the value of the women's side of the sport but don't forget the original World Cups where setup by women because the then IRB couldn't be bothered or wouldn't support it. there has always been this tussled regarding incorporating women's sections in clubs.

To say women don't pull their weight is harsh there a lot of Women's sections that work hard to keep the club afloat and their sections running with much less resources than Men's. There a lot of issues but women's are only asking for parity and equal access to the resources that other teams get so surely that wouldn't be too much to ask?

It is too much to ask because they're not contributing the same.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 19:16

It is too much to ask because they're not contributing the same.


Based on what?

Dude, you really need to know better women, sorry, you are too much limited and blinded by poor experience and biased world view.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 19:47

victorsra wrote:
It is too much to ask because they're not contributing the same.


Based on what?

Dude, you really need to know better women, sorry, you are too much limited and blinded by poor experience and biased world view.

Based on the money brought in by the pro football club compared to the money brought in by the amateur women's team.
Resorting to personal attacks is a definite sign you're wrong.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 21:01

No, what annoys me is how you are just miles away from any real discussion about the matter, man. You stop in the first page, like "dont bring money", while what matters is "why". You don't need to be inteligent to understand it, come on. Therefore, why you insist believing this answers everything?

You once said women don't like sports because they prefer dolls or any other nonsense. There is a very rich and deep discussion about genre identities. It is a whole universe that you seems to be anaware that I don't have where to start. It is like a discussion between a 21st century man and a 19th century one.

But you are agressive in you certainty about things you clearly never really got deep into. Your atitude is the attack itself, and it is extremely destructive. Your presence in this section of the forum is corrosive, as you are only interested in defend your alt-right view of the world that simplisticaly inverts things and say that women are privileged and the only ones guilty. Because you as a man is afraid (or uncapable) of looking at centuries of inequality to understand what is culture and what is biology.

The sort of naive or cynic argument you bring (you tell me what it is) makes me believe your personal world is not filled with strong independent women, with deep genre discussions that go beyong traditional women stereotypes. I say this as a man raised by and married to two very strong women.

I have nothing to do while you are not humble enough to try to open your mind and pose serious questions on your truths. The question is: are you capable of gettng out or your alt-right cliche counter-offensive or you just don't want to? The "right" is never what is easier to believe and answer. Who of us brings the easy? The easier is always the conservativism, after all, it is already there.

And most of all, if you don't like and don't care about womens rugby, get out.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 21:26

Oh, there is without doubt a lot of hard working women in sport, players included, but it's the Jill Averages of the world that's the issue. I totally get why a lot of women players feel like they are left behind by their clubs, but the reality is there aren't that many people interested in what they do. If it's a question about fairness, as harsh as it sounds, the women's teams don't bring in the supporters or money, and that has to account for something in terms of who gets first pick of the resources. I'm not saying it's fair, it's not, but sport and how it's run, isn't fair.

If we want to have an honest conversation about trying to find solutions we have to first accept that when it comes to sport both men and women prefer to watch mens sport. If we can collectively agree to that then we can start to talk about what it is that makes women's sports less appealing, especially to women. We can look at successful women's sports like Netball and see what it is they are doing successfully. Maybe it's a case of some sports needing to make changes for the women's game to be more appealing, or maybe it's about how it's marketed. Trying to appeal to women by showing them athletic girls on the pitch playing hard and running around with the ball clearly isn't working, that's coming from a very male perspective because that's something we enjoy seeing. So we need to ask ourselves, what does a female version of that look like? Maybe it's case of showcasing the beauty of the sport and not the physicality, that just because a girl can tackle hard doesn't make her less of a woman. So perhaps show there's a grace and beauty to rugby in its own right. Find out what women appreciate, and work out at way to sell the sport with that in mind. Honestly, what is there to lose at this stage?


The answer is time. You need whole new generations of women that since early ages want to consume sport the same way as men, because there is nothing telling them what is the most appropriate. You won't have it quickly and the biggest problem is that today no one want to invest now to have the profit in a long term, which makes things slower.

I have NO answer, but the thing is: you need a generation that generates idols, strong role models. Than this idols will (in a team sport) be followed by the creation of a deeper meanings around the teams they play. People follow whatever have meaning. And only after the creation of this meaningful environment (teams and tournaments that are meaningful + idols) that you start producing a proper generation of players, raised in this environment, that will elevate the level of the sport.

It is really not fast. It is like making a sport popular in a place it isn't. But worse, because you have also prejudice around.

Besides, those men that started modern sport in the 19th century found an environment proper to make their new activities (sports) grow. 19th century is obviosly very different from 21st century. I see a general lack of interest about traditional sports growing among young people, as they have MANY other options of entertainment. This is true for boys and girls. What women's sports have in Western world is they have now a meaning of defy traditional values, but you have many other ways to do it. Again, to make women sports popular you need to grow successive large generations of young girls that see team sports as their space. This is all very new. Look at how women's rugby was 20 years ago. And 20 years is nothing. Patience, my friend.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 21:26

Again, a post entirely consisting of personal attacks you had to resort to because you're wrong.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 21:29

iul wrote:Again, a post entirely consisting of personal attacks you had to resort to because you're wrong.


Have you read it? I believe you haven't, as you don't argue with what really matters in what I write. Or is this the strategy of alt-right or whatever you believe you are?

Come on, start asking or really trying to answer meaningful questions. Can you don't stop in what looks obvious? Try it.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 21:36

victorsra wrote:
iul wrote:Again, a post entirely consisting of personal attacks you had to resort to because you're wrong.


Have you read it? I believe you haven't, as you don't argue with what really matters in what I write. Or is this the strategy of alt-right or whatever you believe you are?

Come on, start asking or really trying to answer meaningful questions. Can you don't stop in what looks obvious? Try it.

I have read it and it's full of personal attacks and nothing else...and then it's followed by another post containing fantasies about needing generations of women that like sports like men do... but why? Why do women need to like the stuff the men like? Why is it such a problem for you they like other stuff?

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 21:48

So, you are unable to understand whatever you call fantasy. Which is basically the whole discussion that you clearly are unaware because of your own experience, as you asked questions like "Why do women need to like the stuff the men like? Why is it such a problem for you they like other stuff?", which are really sad to read, it is like a discussion about Flat Earth or evolution.. It feels we are split by 50 years or live different worlds.

I am not bringing my opinions, I am informing you that there is millions of studies, debates, in several fields in human sciences about it. People have different interests, I know, but this is hard to believe that you keep repeating things from the other age. I don't know where you live, I don't know what you read in internet or books, but man, you need update.

Sorry, I am being honest. Really honest. I don't have any intention to offend you, I don't even know you personaly. But there is no starting point if you never got really in touch with the entire discussion. What brings me to the final question: why do you care to be here in this part of the forum, as your world is not connected to it? Only to harass?
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 22:28

Honest question though, do you honestly believe that men and women are simply influence by society as to what they are interested in? Because, to suggest nature doesn't play a part in our choices seems to be completed devoid of common sense.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby iul » Mon, 11 Feb 2019, 23:13

Again, having to resort to personal attacks, meanwhile, if you have a look at some science you can see there simply are differences between stuff men like and women like:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Interests

Women like other stuff and that's OK, you don't have to launch a bizarre multigenerational quest to make them like what men like.

Also, someone having a different opinion than yours isn't harassment

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 00:03

thatrugbyguy wrote:Honest question though, do you honestly believe that men and women are simply influence by society as to what they are interested in? Because, to suggest nature doesn't play a part in our choices seems to be completed devoid of common sense.


Whose common sense? Obviously nature influences, but culture more. And it is not me talking. More than this, as we are inside society it is difficult to see limits by ourselves or by "common sense".
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 00:08

iul wrote:Again, having to resort to personal attacks, meanwhile, if you have a look at some science you can see there simply are differences between stuff men like and women like:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Interests

Women like other stuff and that's OK, you don't have to launch a bizarre multigenerational quest to make them like what men like.

Also, someone having a different opinion than yours isn't harassment


Go to Google Academic or any academic search engine and search by yourself on gender studies to understand the size of the field. Btw, have you read those articles or only picked to "prove"? And, as you certainly read it, can you post the pdf link of this one https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 144856.htm? Sorry, coudn't find it, but I am curious to read it, the description really suggests many biases. Always remember the so assertive pre-WWII science of evolution many intriguing articles...

You can have whatever opinion you want, but why are you discussing womens rugby if you dont care and dont like it? I cant see a positive reason. So, why are you here?

Btw, have you ever been friends with rugby women? Do you ever knew girls that play since young age? Do you ever discussed deeply rugby with a woman?
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby victorsra » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 01:41

About men vs women interests, there is plenty of reserches showing how women general interest in sports is growing. The latest I received: https://nielsensports.com/women-sport-report-download/

Which really poses the question: how is that true women dont like sports? The real problem here is to improve women competitions itself, which is really a recent problem, as the growth is recent. They don't even need to be at the same level of interest. And obviously you need to remember men are not equal between them, women are not equal between them.
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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby NedRugby » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 08:15

victorsra: (Long and detailed post about women's rugby and the problems they face)

iul: Stop attacking me

victorsra: (Longer and more detailed post about women's rugby and women's sport in general)

iul: Dude, enough personal attacks already. Just admit I'm right.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 08:35

victorsra wrote:About men vs women interests, there is plenty of reserches showing how women general interest in sports is growing. The latest I received: https://nielsensports.com/women-sport-report-download/

Which really poses the question: how is that true women dont like sports? The real problem here is to improve women competitions itself, which is really a recent problem, as the growth is recent. They don't even need to be at the same level of interest. And obviously you need to remember men are not equal between them, women are not equal between them.


No-ones saying women don't like sports, but their reasons for liking it and the sports they are drawn to are generally different to men. Gymnastics, Figure Skating, Tennis, these are all sports women are drawn to. It's the contact sports like football and rugby that struggle. If you can find a way to entice women to pay for women's sports then your problem will be solved, because that is the main issue at the moment. The main watchers of women's sport at present are men. You won't get any improvement in terms of money and marketing if you can't attract more women to watch women's sport.

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Re: Womens XVs Rugby - Global news & Developments

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 12 Feb 2019, 08:44

I've always thought that sport is a soap opera for men and soap operas and celebs more likely for women.
This doesn't mean that you cannot chose freely what you personally prefer the most. I think the tendency that way more women wach sports than in former times can also be a bit associated with i.e. soccer players becoming bigger celebs than ever before.

About women's sport. Germany is a great case study for it. Women's soccer is pushed unbelievable in Germany. It went so far that the two main public tv stations ARD & ZDF showed most of the games of the world cups 2011 & 2015 live on free-to-air-tv (and with most I mean most, even "blockbusters" like China vs. Canada or South Korea vs. Costa Rica). The effects were at first growth, which than change into ever declining attendances at the Women's Bundesliga of around 800 per match. That's about the number when the tv heavily got involved.
2009/10 766
2010/11 836
2011/12 1.121
2012/13 890
2013/14 1.185
2014/15 1.019
2015/16 1.007
2016/17 942
2017/18 846
(source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frauen-Bu ... #Zuschauer )

Even in the USA, where soccer was (still is ?) clearly seen as a women's sport, the pro-league after two failed attempts only survive because the federations of the USA, Canada and Mexico pay for it).

There are more women's teams in German soccer than ever though (5966 (+147 from 2017)).
(Source: https://www.dfb.de/verbandsstruktur/mitglieder/ )

So we can draw two conclusions which are imho extremely similiar between soccer and rugby
a) women's soccer apparently doesn't appeal enough to a paying mass audience. And until today every try to establish something without heavy subsiding in soccer has failed.
b) it does appeal as a participation sport

I personally think that it is totally fine and the right thing to subside women's sport and give goals to young girls to aspire to. But I have my doubts that it can be sustainable in any football-sport. Asking for the same amount of money as the men's section is a good start to a negotiation, but as long as every single example has proven until today, that it doesn't appeal long term, it will definitely not be the right result of this negotiation.
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