Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Are you:

For
6
10%
Against
53
90%
 
Total votes : 59
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 16:59

Bellow follows text of a letter from RE signed by Octavian MORARIU to Bill Beaumont

Dear Sir Bill Beaumont,
Rugby Europe Board Members gathered this Wednesday March 6th, 2019 in Paris. From all the
points discussed, the World Rugby League project was a key topic which received the highest
attention.
Each Union’s representative from the 15 European countries present around the table
expressed his concerns about the project, for which no official information circulated before
the email I received from Brett Gosper on Wednesday afternoon.
We, as the European governing body of rugby, share this feeling about a competition that could
dangerously penalize the growth of Rugby in Europe, and for which we were never part of the
consultation.
Therefore, we officially ask you to have access to and clarify details of the project, and to be
involved in the discussion and decision-making process. The fact that we have not been
included until now raises a real issue.
We would very much appreciate for you to take this request into consideration, as we are
looking forward to reading from you.
Yours sincerely,
Octavian MORARIU
Rugby Eu

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 17:21

Strong words at a time when they are needed. :thumbup:

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby welshdragon2000 » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 17:48

Here's the setup I would like to see:

The european conference for division 1 and 2 join together while the 'rest of world' conferences join together. Then the winner of europe plays the winner of rest of world to be the winner. This would be so much more beneficial to tier 2 nations. However, why would a team like England or Ireland want to give up a test match in favour of a match against Belgium? Maybe some kind of compromise could be found where my format is used in a pre-world cup year (gives tier 1 nations ability to test and try different players and see if they are up to international level) and then use the current format in a post-world cup year. Thoughts on that?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 18:04

welshdragon2000 wrote:Here's the setup I would like to see:

The european conference for division 1 and 2 join together while the 'rest of world' conferences join together. Then the winner of europe plays the winner of rest of world to be the winner. This would be so much more beneficial to tier 2 nations. However, why would a team like England or Ireland want to give up a test match in favour of a match against Belgium? Maybe some kind of compromise could be found where my format is used in a pre-world cup year (gives tier 1 nations ability to test and try different players and see if they are up to international level) and then use the current format in a post-world cup year. Thoughts on that?

It's called growing the game.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 18:24

I'm not sure why Tier 2 & 3 could oppose this. It would be a momentous change.

https://twitter.com/WorldRugby/status/1 ... 15776?s=20

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby fullbackace » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 18:25

GeoRugby wrote:
fullbackace wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:Relgation-promotion should be automatic. If Italy end up bottom, they go to the lower division without second chance. Winning team from 2nd division is automatically promoted to the top. Thats the only fair way for tier2 nations. Everything else is only favors tier1.


Not really, If the gap between the T1 loser and T2 winner is too big why should they get promoted ? Playoff makes sense.



P.S something is wrong with forum quoting script.


They should get promoted because it's called promotion relegation. Tier2 team(Georgia or whoever else), that busts their ass and wins their division deserves to be in the top, no questions asked. The way World rugby has set it up is just to make sure that teams they want in the top, stay in the top. Its so obvious.


Who cares what it's called. The point is, to get into top flight you need to be definitively better than the competition and yes T1 nations want that safeguard because they're scared shitless of relegation. For good reason too and getting relegated when they could've beaten Georgia or USA in playoffs will not be acceptable for them. However if they lose that playoff then there is no argument left to keep us out. Playoff makes promotion merited while also giving T1 nations much desired safeguard from their worst fears. The challenge for us will be overcoming the playoff barrier. Yes we will probably need a franchise, USA will need MLR to grow and PI's will need to convince more of their players to play for their national team, but those are our challenges to overcome. As it is for Scotland, Wales and Italy to figure out how not to go completely bankrupt in case of relegation and stop hindering the growth of Rugby because of that.

Also I'd pick that opportunity over 2 tests a year any day because those 2 test schedules will go on for at least another 20 years with little progress to show for it, we'll be like Italy stuck between the tiers and they can take it away anytime for whatever reason. I just don't like being at the mercy of others, I'd like us to create our own success. who knows we might never get a chance for promotion again, while if this idea goes through it will surely change and improve later on, this tournament won't be the end it'll be a new start for Rugby.
Last edited by fullbackace on Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 18:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 18:27

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:I'm not sure why Tier 2 & 3 could oppose this. It would be a momentous change.

https://twitter.com/WorldRugby/status/1 ... 15776?s=20

Because Tier 2 teams currently receiving Tier 1 matches may never host them again (Canada), others may find themselves yo-yoing forever, some were promised yearly Tier 1 games in 2017 for 2020 and now see these plans explode, it doesn't solve financial questions since the focus so far has been on boosting revenues for Tier 1... It isn't such a clear choice.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby GeoRugby » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 19:12

fullbackace wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:
fullbackace wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:Relgation-promotion should be automatic. If Italy end up bottom, they go to the lower division without second chance. Winning team from 2nd division is automatically promoted to the top. Thats the only fair way for tier2 nations. Everything else is only favors tier1.


Not really, If the gap between the T1 loser and T2 winner is too big why should they get promoted ? Playoff makes sense.



P.S something is wrong with forum quoting script.
ily favors tier1. Period. How is that fair.

They should get promoted because it's called promotion relegation. Tier2 team(Georgia or whoever else), that busts their ass and wins their division deserves to be in the top, no questions asked. The way World rugby has set it up is just to make sure that teams they want in the top, stay in the top. Its so obvious.


Who cares what it's called. The point is, to get into top flight you need to be definitively better than the competition and yes T1 nations want that safeguard because they're scared shitless of relegation. For good reason too and getting relegated when they could've beaten Georgia or USA in playoffs will not be acceptable for them. However if they lose that playoff then there is no argument left to keep us out. Playoff makes promotion merited while also giving T1 nations much desired safeguard from their worst fears. The challenge for us will be overcoming the playoff barrier. Yes we will probably need a franchise, USA will need MLR to grow and PI's will need to convince more of their players to play for their national team, but those are our challenges to overcome. As it is for Scotland, Wales and Italy to figure out how not to go completely bankrupt in case of relegation and stop hindering the growth of Rugby because of that.

Also I'd pick that opportunity over 2 tests a year any day because those 2 test schedules will go on for at least another 20 years with little progress to show for it, we'll be like Italy stuck between the tiers and they can take it away anytime for whatever reason. I just don't like being at the mercy of others, I'd like us to create our own success. who knows we might never get a chance for promotion again, while if this idea goes through it will surely change and improve later on, this tournament won't be the end it'll be a new start for Rugby.


I have a different point of view. Personally I do not care about the fears of tier1. This is not 6N that World Rugby cannot control. It is World Rugby proposed tournament that heavily favors tier1 nations. How is that fair? Playoffs are there to benefit tier1. This alone should be enough for tier 2 nations to reject this. If they don't stand up now, it'll be even worse later. No one even consulted tier2 nations about this. The only way to make this more or less exceptable is to make promotion relegation automatic. Like you said playoffs are safeguards for tier1. You say winning playoff makes the move up merited. I say winning you division is the merit to move up. I would prefer Georgia hosting tier 1 nation in Tbilisi every year to this tournament any day.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby fullbackace » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 19:20

GeoRugby wrote:
fullbackace wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:
fullbackace wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:Relgation-promotion should be automatic. If Italy end up bottom, they go to the lower division without second chance. Winning team from 2nd division is automatically promoted to the top. Thats the only fair way for tier2 nations. Everything else is only favors tier1.


Not really, If the gap between the T1 loser and T2 winner is too big why should they get promoted ? Playoff makes sense.



P.S something is wrong with forum quoting script.
ily favors tier1. Period. How is that fair.

They should get promoted because it's called promotion relegation. Tier2 team(Georgia or whoever else), that busts their ass and wins their division deserves to be in the top, no questions asked. The way World rugby has set it up is just to make sure that teams they want in the top, stay in the top. Its so obvious.


Who cares what it's called. The point is, to get into top flight you need to be definitively better than the competition and yes T1 nations want that safeguard because they're scared shitless of relegation. For good reason too and getting relegated when they could've beaten Georgia or USA in playoffs will not be acceptable for them. However if they lose that playoff then there is no argument left to keep us out. Playoff makes promotion merited while also giving T1 nations much desired safeguard from their worst fears. The challenge for us will be overcoming the playoff barrier. Yes we will probably need a franchise, USA will need MLR to grow and PI's will need to convince more of their players to play for their national team, but those are our challenges to overcome. As it is for Scotland, Wales and Italy to figure out how not to go completely bankrupt in case of relegation and stop hindering the growth of Rugby because of that.

Also I'd pick that opportunity over 2 tests a year any day because those 2 test schedules will go on for at least another 20 years with little progress to show for it, we'll be like Italy stuck between the tiers and they can take it away anytime for whatever reason. I just don't like being at the mercy of others, I'd like us to create our own success. who knows we might never get a chance for promotion again, while if this idea goes through it will surely change and improve later on, this tournament won't be the end it'll be a new start for Rugby.


I have a different point of view. Personally I do not care about the fears of tier1. This is not 6N that World Rugby cannot control. It is World Rugby proposed tournament that heavily favors tier1 nations. How is that fair? Playoffs are there to benefit tier1. This alone should be enough for tier 2 nations to reject this. If they don't stand up now, it'll be even worse later. No one even consulted tier2 nations about this. The only way to make this more or less exceptable is to make promotion relegation automatic. Like you said playoffs are safeguards for tier1. You say winning playoff makes the move up merited. I say winning you division is the merit to move up. I would prefer Georgia hosting tier 1 nation in Tbilisi every year to this tournament any day.

I understand your point of view but I think it's shortsighted. Better an egg today than a hen tomorrow. We don't know that we'll get a chance for promotion In this century at all. Plus what happens when more tier 3 get to tier 2 level ? top teams can't possibly keep up with playing everyone away forever. This is not just about us but about Rugby as a whole.. While also being better for us in my opinion.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby GeoRugby » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 19:40

World rugby may get rid of promotion relegation idea in a few years anyway. Who's to say its not going to happen. And then what? They cannot be trusted. Tournaments like ARC have been great for smaller nations such as Brazil who benefited quiet a bit from it. Uruguay and Chile as well. Spain, Brasil, Uruguay are getting good quality opposition lately in test games. Their level is improving. Why change it? And for Georgia playing tier 1 nations is essential for further development instead of stagnating. We already play tons of games against PI's and USA/Canada and just couple of months ago,we thought we'd be playing tier1 teams in Tbilisi every year on top of that, which would make it a perfect progression. Looks like this is out the window now and I don't like it. And a game or two against tier1 that Georgia has been getting lately is also out the window I might add.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby fullbackace » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 20:01

GeoRugby wrote:World rugby may get rid of promotion relegation idea in a few years anyway. Who's to say its not going to happen. And then what? They cannot be trusted.
We both saw the resonance of the leaks which omitted Fiji and Georgia. I don't think they can just up an remove it like that after it's in place.


Tournaments like ARC have been great for smaller nations such as Brazil who benefited quiet a bit from it. Uruguay and Chile as well. Spain, Brasil, Uruguay are getting good quality opposition lately in test games. Their level is improving. Why change it?
Why won't this have the same benefit ? it brings in Namibia&Hong Kong to the table as well as all the other teams that might aspire to be Tier 2.


And for Georgia playing tier 1 nations is essential for further development instead of stagnating. We already play tons of games against PI's and USA/Canada and just couple of months ago,we thought we'd be playing tier1 teams in Tbilisi every year on top of that, which would make it a perfect progression. Looks like this is out the window now and I don't like it. And a game or two against tier1 that Georgia has been getting lately is also out the window I might add.


Fact that it's out the window is a clue that they didn't like it in the first place, which means they would've gotten rid of it anyway and we wouldn't get a playoff to T1 in return either. Yes we will need to play T1 and for that we'll have to get into the Division 1, If we don't then we don't deserve it, plain and simple. What you see as perfect progression I see as another bone thrown to keep us quiet while they come up with other ways to maintain the status quo, because it has no future, eventually Brazil, Uruguay, Spain etc will come up to our level and they'll want 2 fixtures as well, but There aren't enough T1 teams to play that many tier 2 fixtures, what do you suppose happens then ? nothing good for us I reckon. That's why we need a solution for everyone not just temporary fixes to patch the cracks in the system.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 20:33

Armchair Fan wrote:
Bruce_ma_goose wrote:I'm not sure why Tier 2 & 3 could oppose this. It would be a momentous change.

https://twitter.com/WorldRugby/status/1 ... 15776?s=20

Because Tier 2 teams currently receiving Tier 1 matches may never host them again (Canada), others may find themselves yo-yoing forever, some were promised yearly Tier 1 games in 2017 for 2020 and now see these plans explode, it doesn't solve financial questions since the focus so far has been on boosting revenues for Tier 1... It isn't such a clear choice.


So some people would prefer an annual friendly against Tier1 in the existing status quo closed shop compared to an open system, based on on field performance, where any nation can reach the pinnacle of the sport if their union applies itself?

That is the choice, and I think it is a very straightforward one. This is the first opportunity I can think of to genuinely break the glass ceiling. Once broken it cannot be reinstated.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 20:35

Well, some people would prefer a secured yearly Calcutta Cup compared to an open system, based on on field performance where any nation can reach the pinnacle of the sport if their union applies itself.

It's not what I want for rugby, but unfortunately there is a lot of people thinking this way.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 20:43

welshdragon2000 wrote:Here's the setup I would like to see:

The european conference for division 1 and 2 join together while the 'rest of world' conferences join together. Then the winner of europe plays the winner of rest of world to be the winner. This would be so much more beneficial to tier 2 nations. However, why would a team like England or Ireland want to give up a test match in favour of a match against Belgium? Maybe some kind of compromise could be found where my format is used in a pre-world cup year (gives tier 1 nations ability to test and try different players and see if they are up to international level) and then use the current format in a post-world cup year. Thoughts on that?


So you wish to use t2/t3 teams as punching bags. Anything else?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby GeoRugby » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 20:54

Fact that it's out the window is a clue that they didn't like it in the first place, which means they would've gotten rid of it anyway and we wouldn't get a playoff to T1 in return either. Yes we will need to play T1 and for that we'll have to get into the Division 1, If we don't then we don't deserve it, plain and simple. What you see as perfect progression I see as another bone thrown to keep us quiet while they come up with other ways to maintain the status quo, because it has no future, eventually Brazil, Uruguay, Spain etc will come up to our level and they'll want 2 fixtures as well, but There aren't enough T1 teams to play that many tier 2 fixtures, what do you suppose happens then ? nothing good for us I reckon. That's why we need a solution for everyone not just temporary fixes to patch the cracks in the system.


By playing tier1 consistently, at home and with promising new generation, Georgia would get to a new level in few years. While I like the idea of Namibia and HK becoming competitive, I wouldn't like it to be at the expense of Georgia.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby fullbackace » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 21:01

GeoRugby wrote:By playing tier1 consistently, at home and with promising new generation, Georgia would get to a new level in few years.
I can't believe that you believe this :|


While I like the idea of Georgia becoming competitive, I wouldn't like it to be at the expense of 6 Nations.


:|
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby GeoRugby » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 21:07

I can't believe that you believe this

Is it really so hard to believe?

While I like the idea of Georgia becoming competitive, I wouldn't like it to be at the expense of 6 Nations.


6N can take a hike. For now playing tier1 nations consistently and getting better is more important.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby fullbackace » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 21:25

GeoRugby wrote:Is it really so hard to believe?



6N can take a hike. For now playing tier1 nations consistently and getting better is more important.


Firstly 2 games a year give you very little. If you want true improvement you either need a dozen of such games or a Franchise in a top competition which is the path we need to take.

Secondly you can't argue the same thing that we've been fighting against since the 90s.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 21:32

GeoRugby wrote:World rugby may get rid of promotion relegation idea in a few years anyway. Who's to say its not going to happen. And then what? They cannot be trusted. Tournaments like ARC have been great for smaller nations such as Brazil who benefited quiet a bit from it. Uruguay and Chile as well. Spain, Brasil, Uruguay are getting good quality opposition lately in test games. Their level is improving. Why change it? And for Georgia playing tier 1 nations is essential for further development instead of stagnating. We already play tons of games against PI's and USA/Canada and just couple of months ago,we thought we'd be playing tier1 teams in Tbilisi every year on top of that, which would make it a perfect progression. Looks like this is out the window now and I don't like it. And a game or two against tier1 that Georgia has been getting lately is also out the window I might add.


This guy gets it. While this plan may have originated as a way to help T2s break through, it is now transparently a bailout for T1 unions who are going broke in a tougher sponsorship environment and in some cases due to their own ineptitude (Australia). Their solution, instead of just opening up the 6N and RC to expansion, is to flog the same 10 boring matchups to a PPV broadcaster with a T2 token thrown in. And the rest of T2 suffers with no T1 fixtures. Collectively the unions have to say no thanks, come back with something better.

Rugby League has to be loving this idiocy BTW. They announced a Pacific triple-header at Eden Park for the day of the RWC final. Samoa and Tonga will gladly go where they are given opportunities to play the best and I don’t blame them one bit.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby GeoRugby » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 21:55

Firstly 2 games a year give you very little. If you want true improvement you either need a dozen of such games or a Franchise in a top competition which is the path we need to take.


Two games against tier1 and one of those at home every year would be great in addition to playing quality such Pi's and USA. Home game against tier1 in particular would be huge for further development and would break Status Quo. As far as Franchise goes , I just don't see how its going to happen. There is no money for it. Haig can talk about it, but if there is no money (and here is no money), there is no franchise.

This guy gets it. While this plan may have originated as a way to help T2s break through, it is now transparently a bailout for T1 unions who are going broke in a tougher sponsorship environment and in some cases due to their own ineptitude (Australia). Their solution, instead of just opening up the 6N and RC to expansion, is to flog the same 10 boring matchups to a PPV broadcaster with a T2 token thrown in. And the rest of T2 suffers with no T1 fixtures. Collectively the unions have to say no thanks, come back with something better.


Totally. That's my argument. World Rugby is thinking first and foremost about elite while giving no consideration to tier2 Tat's why they can cook up new competitions without even bothering to consult with tier2 unions, because for them tier2 is an afterthought. That is not how World Rugby should work. If tier2 nations don't stand up now, it maybe too late later on.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby fullbackace » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 22:30

No one is under the impression that WR is acting on behalf of T2 best interests or approving their politics. We are just evaluating the proposal at its face value. Which means the proposal as it is shown here(without any extra strings attached or further rigging) is better than the status quo all things considered. Plus even if it fails the previously proposed schedule would still be in question and for all we know we might get something worse.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby carbonero » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 23:17

GeoRugby wrote:Two games against tier1 and one of those at home every year would be great in addition to playing quality such Pi's and USA. Home game against tier1 in particular would be huge for further development and would break Status Quo.

Georgia is not hosting T1 sides every year under the new calendar. There will be some tours in the July window but Romania, the PIs, Japan, USA and Canada were also promised tests in the same timeframe. It could be just 5 home games in 12 years.

The league is never going to happen. Relegation means financial ruin for any Tier 1 nation. They’ll never agree to it.

And 4N, stop quoting Gregor Paul. He is without doubt the biggest hater of emerging nations in rugby media. He just called the expanded TRC a “joke competition”.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Blurandski » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 23:26

I'd do a few simple things to the nations league to make it vastly better:

1. Scrap the semi-finals, and go straight to the final. This makes it much more likely to be approved by the clubs.

2. In the 4th week, make the 8 D1 sides not involved in a 4th week fixture (be it a pro/rel match, or the final) each play a D2 side. All matches to take place in Europe. e.g. If England and NZ finish top 2, and Italy play Georgia for pro/rel, Australia/SA/Argentina will play Romania/Spain/Russia etc.

3. Make Pro-rel automatic, no playoffs for it.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby iul » Thu, 07 Mar 2019, 23:27

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ld-league/
Frenglish clubs threatening legal action

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Fri, 08 Mar 2019, 00:17

carbonero wrote:And 4N, stop quoting Gregor Paul. He is without doubt the biggest hater of emerging nations in rugby media. He just called the expanded TRC a “joke competition”.


He’s the guy who broke the story. Obviously has some good sources and knows what’s happening behind the scenes. Not pretending he is T2 advocate.

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