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Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 05:25

victorsra wrote:but whats about this:

“We have presented options to them around the establishment of a Super Rugby Asia-Pacific competition structure including Japan, the Pacific Islands, North and South America and Hong Kong. The concept includes linking high performance programmes of such nations into the potential competition structure. The aim is to deliver a competitive and sustainable international pathway that can align to both current and future considerations around the international calendar.”


Are they going to incorporate GRR? Can we understand this way?


Yeah. That seems to a figment of their imagination if the rebuttal from GRR is anything to go by. What I think is far more likely is SANZAAR much like RA and the NZRU will endorse GRR more so than incorporate it. Because they really don't understand how GRR is being set up if they think they can just take it over and integrate it as some half arsed attempt to gloss over their incompetence. It also completely disregards the emergence of MLR and the work being done in getting things in line for the LAR. For what they are saying to actually have a chance of occurring they would have to smash such structures and plans completely. There would also need to be significant $$$ on the table. It's all fairly fanciful now. What they are essentially trying to sell is some imaginary vision of a AP competition that would feature a team in Vancouver, one or two on the west coast of the States, Japan, the PI's and likely the national teams from the likes of Chile, Brazil, Uruguay etc.

I suspect this endorsement is being driven by RA and likely to a lesser extent the NZRU. But not in order to set up an AP competition but to play nice with GRR as at least from RA perspective forming a working relationship is important as there are already murmurs about forming a 2nd structure beyond both SR and GRR that will combine the Aus SR teams with the Force and at the very least Fiji to fill in the gaps and losses from cutting games.

I also suspect it's about planning for the future. Developing that relationship with GRR and looking to get some kind of cross-competition structure up and running would pave the way for an eventual exit strategy for at the very least RA from SR.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 08:37

This is interesting. Details that could explain where the AP SR concept is coming from. Not a SANZAAR thing though. https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2019 ... myCQSAcH04

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 12:41

So let me get this right, the South African's thought the Sunwolves weren't pulling their weight financially, despite the fact they were the only team who had to pay to be there. That sounds logical. :thumbdown:

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby 4N » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 16:27

Now there’s talk of a new league being set up in Japan, with overseas sides involved.

In a twist of fate to match any political thriller, it could be that SANZAAR's axing of the Sunwolves may end up being the catalyst that breaks up the sporting body, rather than strengthening its own competition.


https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2019 ... rugby.html

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby iul » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 17:46

4N wrote:Now there’s talk of a new league being set up in Japan, with overseas sides involved.

In a twist of fate to match any political thriller, it could be that SANZAAR's axing of the Sunwolves may end up being the catalyst that breaks up the sporting body, rather than strengthening its own competition.


https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2019 ... rugby.html

I don't like it. Where it is feasible, and in Japan it is, I prefer national championships. Create some sort of Oceanian/Asian/Pacific Euro cups equivalent if they must, but keep the national league. Change the teams from company based to location based and get the company to plaster their name all over the team in some other ways instead of in the team name.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby 4N » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 17:52

There are like 3 pro teams in Korea and nothing close to their level. If they could get a side in this comp I’m all for it. A national league isn’t for everyone. Wales as we have discussed. Even a country Canada’s size tends to have pro teams in US-based leagues.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby iul » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 18:43

Korea should do something with HK, Malaysia, maybe Singapore.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 23 Mar 2019, 19:30

Very far Malaysia and Singapore from Korea. Japanese lower divisions are the most logical option.
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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 16:03

4N wrote:There are like 3 pro teams in Korea and nothing close to their level. If they could get a side in this comp I’m all for it. A national league isn’t for everyone. Wales as we have discussed. Even a country Canada’s size tends to have pro teams in US-based leagues.

South Korea's wealth and population makes it a much more likely place to sustain a professional league than New Zealand. Their Baseball is lit.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby 4N » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 16:09

Yeah it could happen one day but they need a starting point. That’s why I would like to see a Korean club or two in Japanese competition for now.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 16:27

I used to love watching Super Rugby but it has become a competition devoid of any identity. It also isn't the best club competition anymore like it was in the 90s and early 00s.

Super Rugby needs to get rid of player quotas, open up the market to everywhere, attach city names again to the teams.

Super Rugby tried to be the NFL without anything that makes the NFL awesome.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 21:55

Canadian_Rugger wrote:I used to love watching Super Rugby but it has become a competition devoid of any identity. It also isn't the best club competition anymore like it was in the 90s and early 00s.

Super Rugby needs to get rid of player quotas, open up the market to everywhere, attach city names again to the teams.

Super Rugby tried to be the NFL without anything that makes the NFL awesome.


There were never any city names attached to SR sides. I think you mean provincial. Which is fair enough. They don't have quotas. The Unions use the teams as their primary selection vessel for Test match Rugby so in the case of Aus and NZ they require players to play in these teams in order to be selected. In fact, in order to open up the player market which is something I actually agree with you'd have to introduce quotas to ensure that enough nationally qualified players as still present to be able to form competitive squads.

In fact, a quota system should of been what was introduced back in the S15 period instead of three new teams. The opening of player market with a mandated 60% of the game day squad being eligible for the country in which that team is based.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 24 Mar 2019, 21:57

victorsra wrote:Very far Malaysia and Singapore from Korea. Japanese lower divisions are the most logical option.


You're assuming that such a team would have an entirely Korean roster. Which if they were to enter such a structure would absolutely not be the case. Certainly not at the beginning and possibly not ever.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Mon, 25 Mar 2019, 02:24

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:I used to love watching Super Rugby but it has become a competition devoid of any identity. It also isn't the best club competition anymore like it was in the 90s and early 00s.

Super Rugby needs to get rid of player quotas, open up the market to everywhere, attach city names again to the teams.

Super Rugby tried to be the NFL without anything that makes the NFL awesome.


There were never any city names attached to SR sides. I think you mean provincial. Which is fair enough. They don't have quotas. The Unions use the teams as their primary selection vessel for Test match Rugby so in the case of Aus and NZ they require players to play in these teams in order to be selected. In fact, in order to open up the player market which is something I actually agree with you'd have to introduce quotas to ensure that enough nationally qualified players as still present to be able to form competitive squads.

In fact, a quota system should of been what was introduced back in the S15 period instead of three new teams. The opening of player market with a mandated 60% of the game day squad being eligible for the country in which that team is based.


Yes you are right, when I said cities I really meant rugby unions themselves. Names like Canterbury, Auckland, Western Province, Natal, ACT, New South Wales, Otago, etc. Have far more brand recognition in the rugby world than Crusaders, Blues, Sharks, Stormers, Waratahs, etc.

Super Rugby when it was Super 12 was awesome, every match was like a test match. Watching ACT play with the likes of Gregan, Larkham, Smith, Mortlock, etc was awesome.

Super Rugby used to have actual personality, you had guys like Carlos Spencer, Rupeni Caucau, Cristian Cullen, etc. It was awesome. It is kind of lame now.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby victorsra » Mon, 25 Mar 2019, 03:06

Working Class Rugger wrote:
victorsra wrote:Very far Malaysia and Singapore from Korea. Japanese lower divisions are the most logical option.


You're assuming that such a team would have an entirely Korean roster. Which if they were to enter such a structure would absolutely not be the case. Certainly not at the beginning and possibly not ever.

Anyway, better go to Japan than Malaysia.
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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Tobar » Tue, 26 Mar 2019, 14:55

4N wrote:Now there’s talk of a new league being set up in Japan, with overseas sides involved.

In a twist of fate to match any political thriller, it could be that SANZAAR's axing of the Sunwolves may end up being the catalyst that breaks up the sporting body, rather than strengthening its own competition.


https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2019 ... rugby.html


As far as the money is concerned, multiple sources have told Kyodo that the JRFU were being asked to provide a $5 million participation fee, pay $2 million in travel expenses and forego broadcast rights that could have brought in a further $2 million, none of which applies to the other 14 teams in the competition.

"It was not that we were unwilling to underwrite the Sunwolves, we just couldn't agree the financial terms presented to us by SANZAAR with other demands on our budget," JRFU Chairman Noriyuki Sakamoto said.

The South African authorities and teams have long expressed their displeasure with the Sunwolves, in part because they believed the Japanese side was not contributing financially. Though the benefits that came from the influx of cash from the numerous Japanese companies that sponsor Super Rugby sides outside of Japan was often conveniently ignored.


Way to go SANZAAR, fucking yourself over in the short term for a quick cash grab. So this is the league that so many people are clamoring for the US to get involved in? Basically spend $8MM to get the privilege of playing against them in their esteemed competition. What a load of shit.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Edinburra » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 06:46

Tobar wrote:
4N wrote:Now there’s talk of a new league being set up in Japan, with overseas sides involved.

In a twist of fate to match any political thriller, it could be that SANZAAR's axing of the Sunwolves may end up being the catalyst that breaks up the sporting body, rather than strengthening its own competition.


https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2019 ... rugby.html


I hope the Japanese use their position to offer a more lucrative alternative to stick two fingers up to the the other SANZAAR nations.
For example , imagine they undertook a PRO14 franchise approach with their Top League. Invite the teams talked about in GRR and straight away you have the Japan , Western Force and PI teams on board. Add in HK & Malaysia and you suddenly have a number good quality rugby teams with more access to TV and commercial revenue. Instead of trying to attract NZ and Aussie players in the twilight of their career , they can approach them when they are at a a younger age instead of those players going to Europe. The standard of the NZ and Aussie teams will not improve nor will their financial position and may encourage a talent drain on their players , similar to South Africa.
SA teams will not be interested in just playing in the Super Rugby from a financial perspective and will join the European leagues.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 07:51

The worst thing for Australia and New Zealand would be for the Japanese to get their act together domestically and reform their league to be a financial major player in the region. It's bad enough now with the players that go over their, but if they were to redeveloped their league to the point of having TV networks really interested the situation could be significantly worse.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 07:52

Edinburra wrote:
Tobar wrote:
4N wrote:Now there’s talk of a new league being set up in Japan, with overseas sides involved.

In a twist of fate to match any political thriller, it could be that SANZAAR's axing of the Sunwolves may end up being the catalyst that breaks up the sporting body, rather than strengthening its own competition.


https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2019 ... rugby.html


I hope the Japanese use their position to offer a more lucrative alternative to stick two fingers up to the the other SANZAAR nations.
For example , imagine they undertook a PRO14 franchise approach with their Top League. Invite the teams talked about in GRR and straight away you have the Japan , Western Force and PI teams on board. Add in HK & Malaysia and you suddenly have a number good quality rugby teams with more access to TV and commercial revenue. Instead of trying to attract NZ and Aussie players in the twilight of their career , they can approach them when they are at a a younger age instead of those players going to Europe. The standard of the NZ and Aussie teams will not improve nor will their financial position and may encourage a talent drain on their players , similar to South Africa.
SA teams will not be interested in just playing in the Super Rugby from a financial perspective and will join the European leagues.


I wouldn't have an issue with that except that the Aus franchises absolutely didn't want the Sunwolves cut from SR. The Sunwolves were developing into good draw cards for them. Their ratings here have been good and the Tahs largest crowd last year was when the Sunwolves came to town. And they've been actively looking to engage and forge ties with Japan and Japanese Rugby. The Tahs have played games against Top League teams during the June break for the past few years. While RA may have caved to pressure and should receive a kicking for it if the franchises were interested they certainly shouldn't be shunned.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 07:55

$5 million participation fee, pay $2 million in travel expenses, forego broadcast rights that could have brought in a further $2 million.


Tobar wrote:Way to go SANZAAR, fucking yourself over in the short term for a quick cash grab. So this is the league that so many people are clamoring for the US to get involved in?Basically spend $8MM to get the privilege of playing against them in their esteemed competition. What a load of shit.


Sorry about being pedantic, but actually it is even $9MM. We don't know if it is Australian Dollars or even NZ Dollars, but yeah, that is a load of shit.
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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 27 Mar 2019, 10:01

I would hazard a guess it might be in US dollars if the figure is from a Japan source.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Sables4EVA » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 05:33

I see why the Australia would be interested in investing their time in Japan: money. The market there could sustain a good league system. The Aussie members on this forum can enlighten me on this but in spite of the rivalry, do the Aus/NZ clashes bring in much financial gain? I know the Bledisloe Cup does but I feel that the Super Rugby games are treated with apathy? Maybe too much of a good thing?

The South African sides have a healthy local league system (Currie Cup) as do the Kiwi sides and both their local competitions have teams with local identities and histories that have built passionate supporters (Something the SR sides have failed to develop in 2 decades) and SA teams have the option of European competitions which are more attractive due to the time zone issue. If the Aussies and the Japanese develop something on the line of the European Cup competitions which is fed by a strong Japanese league, the Aussie club competition, the Mitre 10 sides and reps from the Pacific Islands and the up and coming Asian sides which all fall in similar time zones we could be talking something sustainable and will add to the attractiveness of the local leagues.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 07:59

Sables4EVA wrote:I see why the Australia would be interested in investing their time in Japan: money. The market there could sustain a good league system. The Aussie members on this forum can enlighten me on this but in spite of the rivalry, do the Aus/NZ clashes bring in much financial gain? I know the Bledisloe Cup does but I feel that the Super Rugby games are treated with apathy? Maybe too much of a good thing?

The South African sides have a healthy local league system (Currie Cup) as do the Kiwi sides and both their local competitions have teams with local identities and histories that have built passionate supporters (Something the SR sides have failed to develop in 2 decades) and SA teams have the option of European competitions which are more attractive due to the time zone issue. If the Aussies and the Japanese develop something on the line of the European Cup competitions which is fed by a strong Japanese league, the Aussie club competition, the Mitre 10 sides and reps from the Pacific Islands and the up and coming Asian sides which all fall in similar time zones we could be talking something sustainable and will add to the attractiveness of the local leagues.


The reason why a Trans-Tasman competition is so popular among many Australian fans is because games featuring Aus/Aus and Aus/NZ particularly in Aus rate substantially higher than Aus/SA in either Aus or SA. There are a few reasons for this. Familiarity being the biggest. Aus and NZ have a sibling rivalry thing going on and this breeds competition among our sporting teams. It also helps that we have a fairly large NZ expat population in Aus that enhances things. The other major factor is time zones. Games in SA and Arg are outside the optimal time zones often in the middle of the night.

Which many believe actually negatively impacts upon our TV averages and overall value. In theory an TT competition would significant lift our ratings (they were up 25+% leading up to the Rebels going on tour) which would enhance its value. An example of this is our domestic Soccer league the A-League. They have a $68m/year deal. This with a much lower average than the Aus/NZ SR games. What they have going for them is that they are able to offer 26 rounds of games in TV friendly time zones. A 10 team TT competition that rates 25-30% higher has the potential to draw more value. And the Aus TV market is far more lucrative than SA and NZ combined. If you get the mix right and present a product it see's value in. Having teams out that disappear for 3-4 weeks at a time and teams touring that people have a hard time identifying with drags that value down.

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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby rey200 » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 08:27

before SR stopped giving attendance numbers we had this picture:

NZ teams drew crowds everywhere. But in Australia games vs NZ teams were better attended than the games between Australia teams. A trans tasman league would be a logical solution, South Africa would have to have their own competition or join Europe somehow. Still there remains the problem with Argentina. Really not so easy to solve.
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Re: Sunwolves out of Super Rugby?

Postby Raven » Thu, 28 Mar 2019, 15:49

rey200 wrote:before SR stopped giving attendance numbers we had this picture:

NZ teams drew crowds everywhere. But in Australia games vs NZ teams were better attended than the games between Australia teams. A trans tasman league would be a logical solution, South Africa would have to have their own competition or join Europe somehow. Still there remains the problem with Argentina. Really not so easy to solve.


I don´t agree with this at all, not only has this little to do with the Sunwolves being removed of Super Rugby, but axing and alienating Argentina would be a bigger stepback than the confirmed axing of the Sunwolves.
South Africa joining Europe would mean another calendar issue with European Leagues and the Rugby Championship. I don´t see it working even if they unlimit the amount of players called up from Euroean teams.

On another note, Argentina is a few steps away of having a team joining the Currie Cup First Div. (South Africas 2nd biggest internal comp) it´s still unclear on what base and details such as what would happen if they won the thing (I remember when the Pampas XV won the Vodacom they were then not permitted to go a level above and stayed in the same comp., kind of a bummer) amongst other logistic bits and pieces... So their domestic tournament on it´s own doesn´t cut it, they still need partners.

I think we should wait a bit and see how things develop with the Liga Sudamericana de Rugby, how many Argies playing in minor leagues in Europe come back and if more feeder teams can cause the need of more SR franchises in South America.

I insist with the unrealistic idea of a Second division to explore markets in a lower league and create sporting opportunities for the teams that deserve to play in the "Super" competition. Imagine Auckland Blues or Queensland Reds going down, they´d fill stadia everywhere they go.

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