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The Rugby League Thread

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 15:56

Disputes like that happen in RU too. Your own country had a major one not long ago. But a win like this will do a lot for Tongan RL which is what really matters.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 16:01

4N wrote:Disputes like that happen in RU too. Your own country had a major one not long ago. But a win like this will do a lot for Tongan RL which is what really matters.


True those things happen, but:
a) I would never call any result from this chaos "brilliant" or make it sound like a positive thing, that the second-biggest nation in a sport combines forces to lose against a Kiwi/Ozzies-Allstar-team called Tonga invitational
b) Germany didn't have players playing for us, who had played for another national team before (one exception in 7s through the Olympic loophole though).
c) genuine question: how many non-Kiwis/Ozzies played in that game for Tonga in that game played in New Zealand?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 16:13

Of course it’s positive - RL needs more competitive nations that can beat the top 3 (GB is just rebranded England - they aren’t gaining anything). The Tongan team is going to be mostly Aussies and Kiwis but again that’s not a lot different from RU. It still can and will increase the popularity of RL in Tonga itself. I’ve read that RL has gotten bigger there since their performances have improved.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Mon, 28 Oct 2019, 19:25

Toronto Wolfpack have apparently offered Sonny Bill Williams $9 Million dollars for a two year contract. At least that is what is being broadcast in the NZ media atm.

David Argyle has made it known he is spending big when he gets to Super League.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 02:55

So a reverse Sam Burgess?

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 07:18

4N wrote:Of course it’s positive - RL needs more competitive nations that can beat the top 3 (GB is just rebranded England - they aren’t gaining anything). The Tongan team is going to be mostly Aussies and Kiwis but again that’s not a lot different from RU. It still can and will increase the popularity of RL in Tonga itself. I’ve read that RL has gotten bigger there since their performances have improved.


I love facts:
So how many of those players for the Invitational Tonga side where actually Kiwis/Ozzies? How many were fully homegrown? Tonga had around 8 in RU at the World Cup.
If the game would have been played in Tonga, you might have a point. But trying to make a case of growing the game by playing with expats in New Zealand as an Invitational side is a bit far stretched for me. It is not far away from creating a team each for all players born in Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter and let them be their "Season nations" just to have more competitive teams.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 12:05

RugbyLiebe wrote:I love facts

How German of you...

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 12:28

Armchair Fan wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:I love facts

How German of you...


You make too many & too good lists to not have any German in you :lol:
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 15:10

RugbyLiebe wrote:
4N wrote:Of course it’s positive - RL needs more competitive nations that can beat the top 3 (GB is just rebranded England - they aren’t gaining anything). The Tongan team is going to be mostly Aussies and Kiwis but again that’s not a lot different from RU. It still can and will increase the popularity of RL in Tonga itself. I’ve read that RL has gotten bigger there since their performances have improved.


I love facts:
So how many of those players for the Invitational Tonga side where actually Kiwis/Ozzies? How many were fully homegrown? Tonga had around 8 in RU at the World Cup.
If the game would have been played in Tonga, you might have a point. But trying to make a case of growing the game by playing with expats in New Zealand as an Invitational side is a bit far stretched for me. It is not far away from creating a team each for all players born in Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter and let them be their "Season nations" just to have more competitive teams.


To clarify since RL is played in Tonga - are you saying that it would only have an effect if this actual match (Tonga XIII vs GB) was played in Tonga? If so... :lol:

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 15:18

An actual quote from a Tongan poster on a rugby union forum (I have read this elsewhere too):
“League is growing in Tonga and it could take over union.”

But by all means let’s hear more about your opinions on the subject as a German who doesn’t follow RL.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 16:02

4N wrote:
To clarify since RL is played in Tonga - are you saying that it would only have an effect if this actual match (Tonga XIII vs GB) was played in Tonga? If so... :lol:

4N wrote:An actual quote from a Tongan poster on a rugby union forum (I have read this elsewhere too):
“League is growing in Tonga and it could take over union.”

But by all means let’s hear more about your opinions on the subject as a German who doesn’t follow RL.


So you are saying, that Tongans (the ones actually living on Tonga and not being Kiwi/Ozzie citizens with Tongan roots) are used to not see a) their national team/ an invitational side with their name on, play their "home-games" in New Zealand and still take pride out of it? Even enough to lead to significant growth on their islands, where apparently nobody even qualified for the "invitational side" (I have to assume, that there were no born and bred Tongans in that team, as you haven't stated the actual number until now?

Yeah, that sounds strange to me. But you never stop learning. ;)


By the way, cut out your racist BS, that as a German, I have no clue about rugby league. I actually went to Cardiff for the 2013 World Cup opener and I do follow it enough to have an educated and educated opinion.

But again, I follow facts before judgment and your racism puts out the German in me to collect facts. I see that apparently the Tongan "on island" RL (if there is one) is not that happy enough with how things are going to sanction a team, so they bring up a "Tonga invitational team" for their biggest match outside the World Cup. Sorry, but that is strange and is a shame.

And I see a squad with ALL players playing in the NRL.
10 of them born were born in Australia.
10 of them were born in New Zealand.
1 single player was actually born in Tonga but moved to New Zealand on a rugby union (!) scholarship with 18.
11 players presented another national team before:
3 played for Australia
7 for New Zealand
1 for Samoa

Squad source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonga_nat ... rent_squad

So not a single one of the players in the "Tongan" squad played any rugby league on Tonga and over 50% of the team have played for other nations.

This leads me again to my sentence above? Are we really talking about growth in the expat community or on the island itself? I resist to believe that there is real growth on the island itself, I believe you that the expat community does play rugby league a lot and might play even more than they used to.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 16:29

If you think that a game would need to be played in Tonga to get the attention of Tongans everywhere, sorry, you have no clue.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 16:38

4N wrote:If you think that a game would need to be played in Tonga to get the attention of Tongans everywhere, sorry, you have no clue.


Learn to differentiate. That's not what I said. I see no evidence, that it grows on the island, apart from a post you read on a forum supposedly by a Tongan (expat or not?) poster. The hard facts says: not a single "Tongan invitational" played rugby league in Tonga.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Tue, 29 Oct 2019, 16:51

Yeah you clearly don’t understand how Pacific communities (or others with large numbers living abroad) work. No one cares where they were born and yes, the profile of the Tongan RL team is growing in Tonga. This is like the 1986 World Cup thread where you were sure you were right but ended up looking dumb.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 08:18

4N wrote:Yeah you clearly don’t understand how Pacific communities (or others with large numbers living abroad) work. No one cares where they were born and yes, the profile of the Tongan RL team is growing in Tonga. This is like the 1986 World Cup thread where you were sure you were right but ended up looking dumb.


You mean the thread, where the whole point was that the US-soccer-tv-audience was on par with many classical soccer countries in 1982? Where you pointed out, that real broadcasting only started in 1986 and you kind of contradicted yourself, two posts after I accepted your 1986 argument, by saying, that in 1982 there actually were 7 games on cable (which is about the same number as in most European countries at that time). Yeah, I really looked dumb there :lol:

Apart from that, I don't need to be right, I bring up points which are usually a) not made up by a personal opinion and b) based on facts. If somebody has better arguments, that is perfectly fine to me and I am happy to change my view. If someone drops incoherent one-liners, based on personal feelings, that's not happening.

So back from this personal BS.
So does the sport grow or does the Invitational team (Tonga RL did not play) rise their profile?
That's a significant difference. A higher profile (which off course a victory of a Invitational side named Tonga generates) doesn't necessarily lead to more participation, especially, when not a single player did actually play RL on Tonga in his life. You might know more here about RL games played on Tonga or clubs.
I understand, that you have a different view about nationality, but be assured every other sport apart from apparently Rugby League does care where somebody comes from and if he/she holds a passport, Hell RU-eligibility laws are all about birth.

It would help a lot if you wouldn't assume I am attacking, but I am really interested what you say to these following points:

Why didn't the official national team play?
How many Tongans play it on Tonga?
How has that number grown in recent years?
What is your concept of who should be eligible to play for a national team?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 13:51

This was the initial point from the 1986 thread. Seven matches (1982) is not comprehensive live coverage compared to all matches (1986). Cable TV coverage was a separate point you tried to raise after it was apparent you were wrong.

4N wrote:1986 was the first world cup to have comprehensive live coverage in the US.


Here you are again trying to obfuscate by throwing in “my feeling on nationality” and “who I feel should be eligible for Tonga.” No pal. We are discussing the impact of Tonga XIII’s win in Tonga. Because here again you confidently waded in and challenged that Tonga winning is good for rugby league in Tonga and even included the bizarre argument that the game vs GB needed to be played in Tonga itself to have an impact. You clearly have no clue about how PIs view nationality. Country of birth is seen as unimportant when there are more people living abroad than in the islands themselves. My personal views don’t come into it. And RU eligibility laws are not all about country of birth. :lol:

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 14:00

Like many Tongans, Nehumi and Johannsi grew up playing rugby union but have switched to playing rugby league as the sport gathers momentum in Tonga.

"I always wanted to play league, but there wasn't that much here before," explains Johannsi. "I followed it on TV and the internet and I always looked up to Fuifui Moimoi. Now, there are more rugby league competitions than rugby union here, and it's getting bigger and better."


https://www.abc.net.au/abc-internationa ... um/9083340

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 14:57

4N wrote:
Like many Tongans, Nehumi and Johannsi grew up playing rugby union but have switched to playing rugby league as the sport gathers momentum in Tonga.

"I always wanted to play league, but there wasn't that much here before," explains Johannsi. "I followed it on TV and the internet and I always looked up to Fuifui Moimoi. Now, there are more rugby league competitions than rugby union here, and it's getting bigger and better."


https://www.abc.net.au/abc-internationa ... um/9083340


So finally you come up with something. Thanks. Great read.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 15:08

4N wrote:This was the initial point from the 1986 thread. Seven matches (1982) is not comprehensive coverage live compared to all matches (1986). Cable TV coverage was a separate point you tried to raise after it was apparent you were wrong.

4N wrote:1986 was the first world cup to have comprehensive live coverage in the US.


Maybe that's a language barrier, as English is not really a very exact language compared to German. The US TV coverage with 8 games was as comprehensive as most European's coverage. Comprehensive doesn't necessarily mean, that all games must be covered. But 8 games was not a bad number during that time.

4N wrote:Here you are again trying to obfuscate by throwing in “my feeling on nationality” and “who I feel should be eligible for Tonga.” No pal. We are discussing the impact of Tonga XIII’s win in Tonga. Because here again you confidently waded in and challenged that Tonga winning is good for rugby league in Tonga and even included the bizarre argument that the game vs GB needed to be played in Tonga itself to have an impact. You clearly gave no clue about how PIs view nationality. Country of birth is seen as unimportant when there are more people living abroad than in the islands themselves. My personal views don’t come into it. And RU eligibility laws are not all about country of birth. :lol:


Thing is in the long run, nobody will give a shit how anybody feels about nationality, if they can't match the eligibility rules. And off course valid RU-eligibility laws are all about country of birth (of your, your parent's and your grand-parent's place of birth) as I doubt a born Kiwi will live 5 years in Tonga just to get eligibility.
Reminds me of the court case of Tonga RL against IRFL in 2008. Read up on it. It does matter if the sport grows where people will be eligible for even in the next few generations. The article you posted clears that up. Didn't know that RL was bigger in Tonga until the RU World Cup arrived.

But you are right, the PI opinion that they can simply change their nations etc. really puzzles me. Hence I bloody asked, where you stand. And sorry, that I've read a lot of RL stories how much impact a national team has, when it was completely made up of some expats with next to nobody interested in the country itself. If this is really different in Tonga - fair enough.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 20:04

You seem to have some kind of comprehension issue. Eight out of 52 matches isn’t comprehensive live coverage. There’s no ambiguity or room for other interpretations, you just got it wrong.

Now here we are a few weeks later and you’re doing something similar. Making confident declarations like “maybe if the game had been played in Tonga you might have a point.” If you genuinely want answers maybe change your approach and just ask questions without the added commentary or if you want to argue, pick topics you know something about.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby Thomas » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 20:08

Round 2 of the qualifiers

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby 4N » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 20:26

Yep big international weekend. Looking forward to this.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby Thomas » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 21:22

That looks like a cracker in NZ.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 22:27

Rugby Union can be critical of Rugby League for many things but one thing it cannot be is critical of how Rugby League treats the Pacific Islands. Rugby League and the NRL is doing more for Pacific Island Rugby than World Rugby ever has.

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Re: The Rugby League Thread

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 30 Oct 2019, 22:35

Probably, but that responds to the different situation of both sports. Australia has a much bigger weight in league and therefore it can use for purposes beyond sport (soft power) whereas World Rugby needs to care about the interests of more nations. At the same time union has a much more credible international game and doesn't need to push forward two or three particular teams to strengthen it.

As things are right now union has much more to lose by putting even more effort on Pacific Islands than league may finally gain.

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