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What should change in REC?

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby wooden shoe » Fri, 29 Nov 2019, 15:35

Yes, I think the final crisis is solved. But I think the union still has to be carefull. We don 't have a decent sevens programm for example. Regional and central trainingsprograms have been set up in recent years, but it seems to me that the national teams do not train so much as a team.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 05:07

I somehow missed this news. Delaying change is probably the best idea. The question that comes to mind is exactly how this change should be implemented. I do think it presents an opportunity for continental Europe to make a better product that it can sell to fans, sponsors and TV networks. For the longest time the REC has copied the 6N in format, so something that differentiates it from the bigger competition is not a terrible idea to consider. If teams are divided into pools of 4 then the question is going to be how exactly do determine the pools each year. Pools based on current rankings would be this:

Georgia (14)
Romania (19)
Portugal (24)
Belgium (27)

Spain (16)
Russia (20)
Netherlands (25)
Germany (28)

If we go on rankings, say at the end of November each year, the risk here is that we get the same teams playing each other most years. Not sure exactly what to make of this all, but am open to hearing more.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 05:52

thatrugbyguy wrote:I somehow missed this news. Delaying change is probably the best idea. The question that comes to mind is exactly how this change should be implemented. I do think it presents an opportunity for continental Europe to make a better product that it can sell to fans, sponsors and TV networks. For the longest time the REC has copied the 6N in format, so something that differentiates it from the bigger competition is not a terrible idea to consider. If teams are divided into pools of 4 then the question is going to be how exactly do determine the pools each year. Pools based on current rankings would be this:

Georgia (14)
Romania (19)
Portugal (24)
Belgium (27)

Spain (16)
Russia (20)
Netherlands (25)
Germany (28)

If we go on rankings, say at the end of November each year, the risk here is that we get the same teams playing each other most years. Not sure exactly what to make of this all, but am open to hearing more.


That wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing in my opinion. As commercial or the potential commercial realities need to be considered. And looking at the list of countries you've posted you're looking at pretty much the 4 largest European economies outside France and Italy who are part of the 6Ns. Not including GB either. Which will help balance out the smaller economies.

I think there could be an argument for your approach considering it will likely involve the same nations with Switzerland and Poland in the contesting pack (another of the two bigger EU economies) chasing. The goal should be to develop 6-8 Euro nations to the point where they are competitive with the 6Ns teams and in order to do that a level of consistency would need to be present.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 09:38

I don't like the "pool system" to split them up again. This 19th century Commonwealth way of thinking is exactly what kept and keeps rugby back. No privileges for established nations or private clubs, everyone involved with the same chances, so two groups with random teams (maybe less randomized through a ranking to even out groups, but NEVER put the supposed best teams in one group and the supposed weaker teams in another).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby iul » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 10:27

RugbyLiebe wrote:I don't like the "pool system" to split them up again. This 19th century Commonwealth way of thinking is exactly what kept and keeps rugby back. No privileges for established nations or private clubs, everyone involved with the same chances, so two groups with random teams (maybe less randomized through a ranking to even out groups, but NEVER put the supposed best teams in one group and the supposed weaker teams in another).

Those were supposed to be balanced groups based on ranking.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 30 Nov 2019, 23:29

RugbyLiebe wrote:I don't like the "pool system" to split them up again. This 19th century Commonwealth way of thinking is exactly what kept and keeps rugby back. No privileges for established nations or private clubs, everyone involved with the same chances, so two groups with random teams (maybe less randomized through a ranking to even out groups, but NEVER put the supposed best teams in one group and the supposed weaker teams in another).


I don't think that was actually suggested.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 01 Dec 2019, 08:42

Not entirely related to the REC. More to do with the talk of a European league. Has anyone been looking at the Super 6 in Scotland? I actually think it would be a reasonable model for such a structure to follow. They essentially put out EOI's for bids and clubs and interested parties did so. So far the competition has looked good. Wouldn't be the worst framework to build off for such a competition in Europe. Put out EOI's for 6-8 teams based among the teams in the REC/RET. Include things like the need for facilities to meet X standard and finances to meet Y including a modest salary cap.

I think it could help to establish a sustainable structure on the continent.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 07:56

European league:
The German rugby federation has posted some news on twitter, that a new cup is planned thanks to Russia.

Summary:
After the Challenge Shield was discontinued a new European cup starting in April 2020 is planned by the Russian federation. There will be 8 teams (Russia 4, Romania (2), Belgium (1), Germany (1)) involved. It is supposed to be a cup knock-out-competition with home-and-away in the quarters (April) and semis (June), so five games for everyone with ranking games for all teams and one grand final (October). There are also talks with the Italian federation and the Dutch federation (which were both present at the meeting as well as Spain and Georgia to start playing in 2021. The travel and lodging cost should be payed by sponsors.
Final decision will be made end of January at a meeting in Moscow.

Frankfurt 1880 has signalled that they are ready to be the German team (there will also be dual player pass options, so that they can integrate players from other German clubs.

Source:
https://twitter.com/DRVRugby/with_repli ... r%5Eauthor

DRV-Twitter "Nach der Einstellung des Challenge Shield Wettbewerb, bemüht sich der russische Verband um einen Nachfolgewettbewerb mit 8 Teams aus Russland (4), Rumänien (2), Belgien (1) und Deutschland (1). Angedacht ist ein Cup-Wettbewerb mit Hin- und Rückspiel."
"Also insgesamt 5 Spieltagen. Es laufen aktuell Gespräche mit dem italienischen Verband, dem niederländischen Verband (die beide Vertreter vor Ort hatten), dem spanischen Verband und dem georgischen über ihren Einstieg ab 2021."
Für alle anderen ist der vorgesehene Start im April 2020 mit dem Viertelfinale, Halbfinale im Juni 2020 und Finale im Oktober 2020 (die Saison ist also ans Kalenderjahr angeglichen). Die Kosten für Anreise und Unterbringung sollen Sponsoren tragen."
"Ein Vermarktungskonzept oder Ähnliches gibt es noch nicht. Bisher wurde das Projekt nur vorgestellt, ob es konkreter wird entscheidet sich dann bei der nächsten Sitzung, welche Ende Januar 2020 in Moskau stattfinden wird."
"Es ist geplant alle Plätze auszuspielen, d.h. es soll 5 Spiele pro Team geben."
"Frankfurt hat signalisiert ggf. die notwendigen Ressourcen aufbringen zu können und gleichzeitig das Team für andere Spieler aus der Bundesliga zu öffnen."
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 11:01

Good luck with it, I wouldn't expect much from our side.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Vova12 » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 13:43

4 teams is good. Its always nice to be a founder! 8-)
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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Vova12 » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 13:50

in April in Kaliningrad will host European Championship of rugby U19.
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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 18:02

RugbyLiebe wrote:European league:
The German rugby federation has posted some news on twitter, that a new cup is planned thanks to Russia.

Summary:
After the Challenge Shield was discontinued a new European cup starting in April 2020 is planned by the Russian federation. There will be 8 teams (Russia 4, Romania (2), Belgium (1), Germany (1)) involved. It is supposed to be a cup knock-out-competition with home-and-away in the quarters (April) and semis (June), so five games for everyone with ranking games for all teams and one grand final (October). There are also talks with the Italian federation and the Dutch federation (which were both present at the meeting as well as Spain and Georgia to start playing in 2021. The travel and lodging cost should be payed by sponsors.
Final decision will be made end of January at a meeting in Moscow.

Frankfurt 1880 has signalled that they are ready to be the German team (there will also be dual player pass options, so that they can integrate players from other German clubs.

Source:
https://twitter.com/DRVRugby/with_repli ... r%5Eauthor

DRV-Twitter "Nach der Einstellung des Challenge Shield Wettbewerb, bemüht sich der russische Verband um einen Nachfolgewettbewerb mit 8 Teams aus Russland (4), Rumänien (2), Belgien (1) und Deutschland (1). Angedacht ist ein Cup-Wettbewerb mit Hin- und Rückspiel."
"Also insgesamt 5 Spieltagen. Es laufen aktuell Gespräche mit dem italienischen Verband, dem niederländischen Verband (die beide Vertreter vor Ort hatten), dem spanischen Verband und dem georgischen über ihren Einstieg ab 2021."
Für alle anderen ist der vorgesehene Start im April 2020 mit dem Viertelfinale, Halbfinale im Juni 2020 und Finale im Oktober 2020 (die Saison ist also ans Kalenderjahr angeglichen). Die Kosten für Anreise und Unterbringung sollen Sponsoren tragen."
"Ein Vermarktungskonzept oder Ähnliches gibt es noch nicht. Bisher wurde das Projekt nur vorgestellt, ob es konkreter wird entscheidet sich dann bei der nächsten Sitzung, welche Ende Januar 2020 in Moskau stattfinden wird."
"Es ist geplant alle Plätze auszuspielen, d.h. es soll 5 Spiele pro Team geben."
"Frankfurt hat signalisiert ggf. die notwendigen Ressourcen aufbringen zu können und gleichzeitig das Team für andere Spieler aus der Bundesliga zu öffnen."


Maybe it will have 1 spot in ther Challenge Cup while Italian Top12 gets also 1? But with the final in October no chance...
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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Vova12 » Mon, 02 Dec 2019, 18:07

I know that Russia&Eastern Europe have no chance at Challenge Cap!
There will be negotiations in January and think everything will be decided by mutual agrement of partis.
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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby ihateblazers » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 08:58

How about shifting the REC and in the future RET to the Rugby Championship window so it starts in August and runs for 5 consecutive weeks? It would allow games to be played in better weather. REC players could become more attractive to T1 clubs as they would be available for the whole of the 6 nations period for cover and they would only lose them for maybe 1 game in September.

Maybe even look at inviting Japan... i know it sounds crazy but if SANZAAR are not willing to include them anytime soon and the 6 nations do not want to, why not? Japan could use more international games but USA, Canada have the ARC, the Pacific Islands always have issues with player release. The good thing is the Top League is now playing a southern hemisphere schedule. Their TV market could make a world of difference to the REC and they would really add competitive value to the competition. Afterall, SANZAAR gets most of their TV income from markets in the European time zone so why couldn't Japan provide the same to the REC?

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 10:00

I think REC should be 8 teams. Germany and Netherlands are potential future World Cup teams. Also moving it to the spring would be much better for countries that have a cold winter.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby ihateblazers » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 10:56

I agree 8 teams is the future and it seems that is the direction they are headed. I was thinking more how they can commercialise the competition, including Japan could give an immediate uplift.

The issue with moving the competition to the spring is the clash with the business end of the season for T1 clubs.

The other idea I've had is what if Rugby Europe just went ahead and started a Euro Competition without the 6 Nations anyway. Have the REC, RET and top 2 from each of the 2 conferences for 16 teams and host it in a single country every 4 years. Use it as a revenue generator for Rugby Europe. Why try to copy the 6 nations model when there are many different factors why it is successful in their markets.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby myth » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 11:27

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I think REC should be 8 teams.
According to RE, this is planned for 2023.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 11:59

ihateblazers wrote:I agree 8 teams is the future and it seems that is the direction they are headed. I was thinking more how they can commercialise the competition, including Japan could give an immediate uplift.

The issue with moving the competition to the spring is the clash with the business end of the season for T1 clubs.

The other idea I've had is what if Rugby Europe just went ahead and started a Euro Competition without the 6 Nations anyway. Have the REC, RET and top 2 from each of the 2 conferences for 16 teams and host it in a single country every 4 years. Use it as a revenue generator for Rugby Europe. Why try to copy the 6 nations model when there are many different factors why it is successful in their markets.


I would actually like to see them do a twist on the World League concept. Start with two pools of 4 split East/West. Play pool opponent h/a for 6 games and cross pool opponents once. For 10 games total. Top 4 final series. Highest ranked team hosts the final. Run it starting from June through August. Could also earmark 4 other nations for eventual inclusion. Played annually.

Call it the Euro League. Look to contract players for the duration.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby sk 88 » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 12:14

ihateblazers wrote:I agree 8 teams is the future and it seems that is the direction they are headed. I was thinking more how they can commercialise the competition, including Japan could give an immediate uplift.

The issue with moving the competition to the spring is the clash with the business end of the season for T1 clubs.

The other idea I've had is what if Rugby Europe just went ahead and started a Euro Competition without the 6 Nations anyway. Have the REC, RET and top 2 from each of the 2 conferences for 16 teams and host it in a single country every 4 years. Use it as a revenue generator for Rugby Europe. Why try to copy the 6 nations model when there are many different factors why it is successful in their markets.


I like this idea.
Really they need to leverage Spain, Germany, Holland and Russian markets. Why would they necessarily follow the 6N structure?
This could also find favour with French clubs as the release periods are less. Only issue may be how late the French play offs run some years.

Would probably start with 8 teams in first running though.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby iul » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 12:20

I'd like to see it expanded to 8, keeping the round robin format, and then, the nations that don't have a domestic pro league, along with other nations from the lower leaguesbto form a 12 team round robin home and away league. It's much easier to professionalize and sell the national team to sponsors and fans and TV channels than it is to sell them some club competitions.

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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 13:40

iul wrote:I'd like to see it expanded to 8, keeping the round robin format, and then, the nations that don't have a domestic pro league, along with other nations from the lower leaguesbto form a 12 team round robin home and away league. It's much easier to professionalize and sell the national team to sponsors and fans and TV channels than it is to sell them some club competitions.

That's true!

Maybe a competition spread all over the year, intercalated with top domestic leagues, and only the finals in a WR window (to allow foreign-based players only in the finals).
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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Edgar » Wed, 29 Jan 2020, 07:41

Interesting preview of this year's REC on the Tier 2 blog site: http://tier2rugby.blogspot.com/

The dominant force of the tournament Georgia have seen coach Milton Haig depart after 8 years in charge, but their squad does not have a new era feel to it. Still yet to appoint a new head coach, they are being led on a caretaker basis by the former defence coach under Haig, Levan Maisashvili.


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Re: What should change in REC?

Unread postby Canalina » Wed, 29 Jan 2020, 08:56

Regarding "what should change in REC", the timing of Georgia-Romania seems debatable

In CET this saturday we have
12.00 Russia v Spain
15.00 Georgia v Romania
15.15 Wales v Italy
16.00 Portugal v Belgium
17.45 Ireland v Scotland

The Tbilisi game will be concomitant with the Cardiff one and partially with the one in Lisbon. A collocation in the exact middle between the other two REC games, at 17.00 local and 14.00 CET, would have been better

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