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Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 09 Feb 2020, 21:40

The Seven Nations Championship (SA added) would be by far the biggest annual rugby tournament in the world. I think, if it happens, there will be no going back, because the unions will become addicted to the extra income it will generate.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sun, 09 Feb 2020, 21:48

The problem about 7 nations is the number of weeks. The 6N is played in 7 weeks (2-pause-1-pause-2) and more weeks than this means clash with clubs. Top14 and Premiership wont accept (needless to say they PAY salaries).

A tournament with 7 nations in 7 weeks means the nation that receives bye in the 1st round and the nation that receives bye in the 7th round will have played 6 matches in a row and players dont accept such amount of matches (remember World League).

If it is to have 7 matches in 7 weeks do it with 8 Nations as that bye in a 7N model is unfair. And if you have 7 matches in a row there must be a system to not allow players to play more than 3 or 4 in a row, meaning larger rosters.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Canalina » Sun, 09 Feb 2020, 21:55

If there was a change, I'd like they accepted the Morariu purpose. It has some pro and some contra

Pro:
- it would "save" us italians letting us in the tournament
- it would involve South Africa and the money they bring
- it would give REC nations the aim to take part in

Contra:
- I don't like the two pools format
- it would become something different from the tradition of the 6N

If that all happened (but I think it's unlikely) my favorite format would be two pools with crossed matches (you play with the four teams of the other pool) plus finals' day (7th, 5th, 3rd, 1st)

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sun, 09 Feb 2020, 22:04

In the 6Ns eyes the contra is the risk of some home nations not playing France and this probably has economic impact (specialy Le Crunch)
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 09 Feb 2020, 22:48

Canalina wrote:If there was a change, I'd like they accepted the Morariu purpose. It has some pro and some contra

Pro:
- it would "save" us italians letting us in the tournament
- it would involve South Africa and the money they bring
- it would give REC nations the aim to take part in

Contra:
- I don't like the two pools format
- it would become something different from the tradition of the 6N

If that all happened (but I think it's unlikely) my favorite format would be two pools with crossed matches (you play with the four teams of the other pool) plus finals' day (7th, 5th, 3rd, 1st)


Yes, of course, the cross-pool format. That way, every team has 2 home games and 2 away games, then a final. I can imagine the 1st place final being sold to the highest bidder for an obscene amount. I'm going to call it the EMEA (Europe, Middle East and Africa) Rugby Championship. The final will be hosted in Dubai, Oman, Saudi Arabia.
The eighth place should be available to a qualifier from the EMEA region. That would currently probably be Georgia, but in the future it could be a team from Africa or the Middle East.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby theDarky » Sun, 09 Feb 2020, 23:13

victorsra wrote:In the 6Ns eyes the contra is the risk of some home nations not playing France and this probably has economic impact (specialy Le Crunch)


If you tell to the directors of France Television (the french public tv group) that France wont meet England every year you can forget to sign a new contract :-)

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 09 Feb 2020, 23:57

8 team EMEA Rugby Championship, cross-pool format example, using current World Rugby rankings.

Pool A: South Africa, Wales, France, Italy.
Pool B: England, Ireland, Scotland, Georgia.

Round 1:
France vs Scotland; Italy vs Georgia; Ireland vs South Africa; England vs Wales.

Round 2:
Georgia vs South Africa; France vs England; Italy vs Ireland; Scotland vs Wales.

Round 3:
South Africa vs Scotland; England vs Italy; Georgia vs France; Wales vs Ireland.

Round 4:
South Africa vs England; Wales vs Georgia; Ireland vs France; Scotland vs Italy.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 03:23

The absence of France vs England and all matches between Home Nations is a non starter. Nobody will kill those fixtures, therefore the groups format is unlikely to happen.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 07:07

Chester-Donnelly wrote:but in the future it could be a team from Africa or the Middle East.

SURE, South Sudan | Kurdistan

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby theDarky » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 08:47

victorsra wrote:The absence of France vs England and all matches between Home Nations is a non starter. Nobody will kill those fixtures, therefore the groups format is unlikely to happen.


fully agreed

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Edgar » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 09:02

I seriously doubt there will be any change to the 6 Nations. While on one hand their failure to open it up to the rest of Europe is reprehensible, on the other their sense of tradition and practicality have made the championship the cornerstone of international rugby and the envy of the rest of the rugby-playing world.

In saying that, the addition of South Africa is within the realms of plausibility. Dividing the tournament into two groups to accommodate the ENC champion is a pipe-dream, however. If there's one thing we can be sure of it's that the annual fixtures in round-robin format aren't going anywhere.

That's why I've kept my own suggestion - for a promotion-relegation fixture with ENC - to an absolute minimum. A tournament that has only expanded once in the past 110 years isn't about to undergo any radical overnight transformation. If the wheel ain't broke, don't fix it, as the old saying goes.

If SANZAAR does break up I see no reason why the Rugby Championship shouldn't continue. It's Super Rugby which is more likely to bite the dust. I would like to see it (the championship) reduced to a single round, however, and Australia and New Zealand join Japan and the Pacific Islands in a 6 Nations. They could certainly manage both on this basis.

South Africa could continue to meet Argentina for a second time with a Bledisloe Cup-style trophy at stake. & perhaps they could also field more teams in European club competition, while New Zealand and Australia would obviously look to become more involved in Rapid Rugby.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby theDarky » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 09:20

5.77 million viewers for France - Italy in France against 3.8 million ones for the last match against the springboks ....

Source into french: https://www.lequipe.fr/Medias/Actualite ... ie/1108248

I doubt it will change .....

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 10:06

So what do we really have here.
a) the British doing what the British do: form relations with someone already aligned with them
b) a heavy threat for the funding of the game in NZ and to a degree Australia
c) not a single hint, that this could create growth, but only redistributes money to the 6N
d) some chances (8 teams with the REC champion?, but please forget about the counter-group-play. Nobody understands it, nobody likes it, an equal number of home games is not worth it, when you alienate fans), (Pacific nations with NZ, Oz, Japan etc.
e) A heavy threat for Argentina

For me this has a good chance to kill international rugby, with a slight chance of global growth.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Thomas » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 10:10


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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Canalina » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 10:29

Agree with Eddie Jones, even if I felt a bit in love with the 8-teams Morariu purpose

RugbyLiebe wrote:...
d) some chances (8 teams with the REC champion?, but please forget about the counter-group-play. Nobody understands it, nobody likes it, an equal number of home games is not worth it, when you alienate fans), (Pacific nations with NZ, Oz, Japan etc.
...

I would choice the crossing-pool-games format not just to have an equal number of home and away games (they are not equal right now in the 6N, so it's not a problem) but because I don't like so much the format with three pool games, semifinals and finals: I prefer to have directly the finals for two reasons:
- the placement semifinals (5th-8th) would have poor appeal and meaning
- you risk to have some teams (or all the four ones) qualified to the semifinal after the first two rounds, depriving importance to the third round. Ok, this could happen also with the 4-pool-games-plus-finals format, I admit

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 10:56

Canalina wrote:Agree with Eddie Jones, even if I felt a bit in love with the 8-teams Morariu purpose

RugbyLiebe wrote:...
d) some chances (8 teams with the REC champion?, but please forget about the counter-group-play. Nobody understands it, nobody likes it, an equal number of home games is not worth it, when you alienate fans), (Pacific nations with NZ, Oz, Japan etc.
...

I would choice the crossing-pool-games format not just to have an equal number of home and away games (they are not equal right now in the 6N, so it's not a problem) but because I don't like so much the format with three pool games, semifinals and finals: I prefer to have directly the finals for two reasons:
- the placement semifinals (5th-8th) would have poor appeal and meaning
- you risk to have some teams (or all the four ones) qualified to the semifinal after the first two rounds, depriving importance to the third round. Ok, this could happen also with the 4-pool-games-plus-finals format, I admit


Yeah, but you risk that the two best teams never played each other and still one misses the final. Also it creates the strange situation, that the final is a game between teams which already played each other, while they haven't played 3 other teams. How do you want to explain to the public, that the first and second ranked team in group A have all 4 wins, but one teams plays the final against a team with only 2 wins due to bonus points? And that's a realistic scenario for every year.

But maybe that's just me. For me this is the worst format I've ever encountered and I was a nerd watching result tables of many sports since I was a kid.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Bogdan_DC » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 11:09

Morariu talking like someone really cares about him...or REC nations.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Canalina » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 11:21

Bogdan_DC wrote:Morariu talking like someone really cares about him...or REC nations.

Weel, at lest the Daily Mail and some rugby forums in the world took note of his words. It's already something

RugbyLiebe wrote:Yeah, but you risk that the two best teams never played each other and still one misses the final. Also it creates the strange situation, that the final is a game between teams which already played each other, while they haven't played 3 other teams. How do you want to explain to the public, that the first and second ranked team in group A have all 4 wins, but one teams plays the final against a team with only 2 wins due to bonus points? And that's a realistic scenario for every year.

Yes, also that is true

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 13:41

7 matches in a row is perfectly possible. You don't need byes to protect players. You need only a rule to block a player from playing all matches. They will realise it is better this than a pool system loosing valuable matches.

And South Africa can play both, Six Nations and Championship.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby theDarky » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 14:03

victorsra wrote:7 matches in a row is perfectly possible. You don't need byes to protect players. You need only a rule to block a player from playing all matches. They will realise it is better this than a pool system loosing valuable matches.

And South Africa can play both, Six Nations and Championship.


Top14 clubs will refuse a 7 week-long championship without their internationals ... they want to reduce the championship on 5 weeks for a while :-) so for France is a "no-go" ...

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby 4N » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 17:08

victorsra wrote:And South Africa can play both, Six Nations and Championship.


Why would Australia and NZ agree to that? What’s in it for them?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 18:18

I don't think they would like the idea. But if the Boks sign with the 6N first, would Australia and NZ want to kick the Boks out? Wouldn't it kill TRC? Specialy for Argentina. I think they would be mad and reluctantly accept if SA doesn't block Japan to enter (wasn't SA that wanted the Sunwolves out?).

BTW, this can only be done for 2026, when the current SANZAAR contract expires. Until 2026 they can't by contract. Which means they probably would postpone the 6N expansion.

But sincerely. I don't think SA will enter the 6N. Daily Mail is not a serious media (pure tabloid) and probably SA is only planting the news to make NZ and Australia afraid, thinking about next negociations.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby 4N » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 20:53

Japanese rugby is stronger than ever both in terms of the national team and public interest, I don’t think they would hesitate for a minute to bring them in as a replacement. It’s not like 10 or 15 years ago when SA had lots of leverage and used the loss of their TV deal as a threat.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 21:19

4N wrote:Japanese rugby is stronger than ever both in terms of the national team and public interest, I don’t think they would hesitate for a minute to bring them in as a replacement. It’s not like 10 or 15 years ago when SA had lots of leverage and used the loss of their TV deal as a threat.

They have nothing to do or to lose allowing the Boks to stay.

But I don't think nothing will happen. Nobody should be giving credit to a report the quotes nobody.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby 4N » Mon, 10 Feb 2020, 21:26

It may very well be bullshit. All I am saying is they don’t have the negotiating position to play in both competitions. If they ever did, it’s a ship that has sailed.

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