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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 02:48

[quote="Used2BwithIt"]

:thumbup:

Well put. Raise the quality of coaching... who help kids in not just the hot beds but the nooks and crannies of our rugby community raise their game.

Talent emerges from everywhere in sports, especially in large towns and small cities. The problem with rugby here is many of the outliers never fully understand the game, are too far from selectors/rep teams (and/or can't afford it), raw athletes give up on the sport / don't go far / don't get picked because they aren't as 'talented' or knowledgeable as the kids from good programs who already know what's expected.[/quote
There is no league for young players. There is nothing for which to get picked. I am not aware of any good programs in this country. The coaching seems universally terrible as the rugby is so weak. A league is needed. This was realized twenty years ago, but the wrong league was created.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 13:31

It isn't just nooks and crannies, it's huge cities.

Ottawa, for one, is basically a write off. A city of 1 million. Home of Al Charron. No one scouts games here. Try outs for Ontario are a 6 hour drive. Try outs for The Rock were in bloody Newfoundland until recently. The only local to make Canada recently is Connor Keys and he moved to Victoria to do so. The other, Steven Ng, also moved to Victoria.

So there you go, a city of 1 million, basically dead to rugby unless you have money or are unusually motivated.

The one guy I mentioned above, at the age of 17 or 18, couldn't pass. Not couldn't pass well, but literally couldn't pass. Didn't know when to and didn't have the mechanics. In low key touch rugby against old men would just crash every time. Meanwhile at the same age people are lining up for the ABs. Not taking a crack at him, it's the environment.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby therugbycoach » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 16:20

well put. Raise the quality of coaching... who help kids in not just the hot beds but the nooks and crannies of our rugby community raise their game.

Thats a good point which has baffled me a bit, as it sounds like its a hard and costly thing for coaches to coach children / Youth in Canada, and you get little support or help.

I see and hear about senior club sides who really end up with an ex player or some jouneyman foriegner with little coaching experience, or a level1, as "head" coach, more interested in boosting ego and resume. and any youth teams are relegated to any father type wanting to help usually his sons team. whether or not that guy has any experience as all. Then has the problem of not even having the Head coach to talk to about it as he has minimal experience of Coaching as well.

This isnt Just a canadian issue i travel a lot and in many they have similar issues of inexperienced coaches with barely a grasp of basics trying to take on coaching roles just because they are good guys willing to help. but in many there are a lot more Experienced players / coaches/ helpers with suggestions.

Sadly relying on Coaching courses fails to vill the experience role ..I remember going on a RFU course maybe lev 3 or 4 a few years ago, where the assesor, and his assesor whatever their technical names were, had never played or coached senior rugby, and were outshone in that dept by almost everyone in the room, and quite critical of others ideas...needless to say nothing was learnt from that course.

What Canada needs is to have more of its top ex players going to clubs to help with explaining to players and coaches and to be the ones pushing youth players forward in the region Even at the standards of some of the National team players a few could probably give better info of Rugby in the game than any coach that did a level 1 for the sole reason to look legit.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Tue, 11 Sep 2018, 23:10

marvinparsons wrote:It isn't just nooks and crannies, it's huge cities.

Ottawa, for one, is basically a write off. A city of 1 million. Home of Al Charron. No one scouts games here. Try outs for Ontario are a 6 hour drive. Try outs for The Rock were in bloody Newfoundland until recently. The only local to make Canada recently is Connor Keys and he moved to Victoria to do so. The other, Steven Ng, also moved to Victoria.

So there you go, a city of 1 million, basically dead to rugby unless you have money or are unusually motivated.

The one guy I mentioned above, at the age of 17 or 18, couldn't pass. Not couldn't pass well, but literally couldn't pass. Didn't know when to and didn't have the mechanics. In low key touch rugby against old men would just crash every time. Meanwhile at the same age people are lining up for the ABs. Not taking a crack at him, it's the environment.


The failure to develop high performance rugby in Ottawa is a crime. I was there in the early nineties, and they had well-established clubs, organized high school programs and Charron's profile. If Ottawa had a high performance U23 team in a conference with three other Ontario teams, playing twelve games from April to October, with a national playoff against a Western champion determined between two BC teams and two Alberta teams, there would be a lot more Ottawa kids pursuing rugby.

As to skill development, BCRN didn't print my last post, but I will reiterate the point here. I was out watching club rugby two or three years ago. There was a back-row player in the game who had played for Canada in the Junior World competition, played Super League, played in the BC Premier League and CRC, and he couln't pass off both hands. When a player can play at those levels in Canada without developing a basic rugby skill, there is something rotten in Langford.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Fri, 14 Sep 2018, 15:19

TheStroBro wrote:There just aren't enough U23 players to have a proper league to be honest outside of the Uni system. Same issue here...people keep saying we need a U20 club system as an extension from senior clubs...but how many clubs have 22 kids trying to play rugby when it's not an Army team? The youngest median age club I've ever been on was Ft Bliss...in the same town, the El Paso Scorpions was the oldest median age club I've ever been on. So the idea you guys need a U23 league is kind of dumb, what you need a University/College Rugby as a varsity sport. We also need it like that down here and also varsity at the high school level.



Not everybody goes to University and to honest the Uni players are generally softer then blue collar kids, we need more blue collars....

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Fri, 14 Sep 2018, 15:40

Anyone else heading to the Arrows game this weekend? I'm taking my girlfriend, we went to the game against Boston as well. That one was on the turf field with wooden bleachers, looking forward to what the experience is like in the new stadium. Also really want to see how we compete against Glendale now to get an idea of we might do in MLR next year. They should try to arrange a game against Seattle, since Ontario won the CRC it would be almost a Canada-Us club championship. (I know the Arrows aren't the Blues, but there were only 3 blues players from the CRC final who aren't on the Arrows roster for Sunday)

I'm going to try to go to as many games as I can, I think MLR will be a huge boost for Canadian rugby so I want to support them. Besides, if I have a viable, surviving pro team near me I don't have to care about the national team so much.
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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 14 Sep 2018, 17:48

snapper37 wrote:
Not everybody goes to University and to honest the Uni players are generally softer then blue collar kids, we need more blue collars....

Blue Collar kids tend to be the vast majority of NCAA scholarship athletes down here...so.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Fri, 14 Sep 2018, 23:16

TheStroBro wrote:
snapper37 wrote:
Not everybody goes to University and to honest the Uni players are generally softer then blue collar kids, we need more blue collars....

Blue Collar kids tend to be the vast majority of NCAA scholarship athletes down here...so.


...which is completely irrelevant to a place where rugby is not a scholarship sport. That said, the solution is to create U23 clubs that play a mix of each other and university teams. This is exactly what the Pleasanton Jesters have done in Northern California.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 04:26

Coloradoan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
snapper37 wrote:
Not everybody goes to University and to honest the Uni players are generally softer then blue collar kids, we need more blue collars....

Blue Collar kids tend to be the vast majority of NCAA scholarship athletes down here...so.


...which is completely irrelevant to a place where rugby is not a scholarship sport. That said, the solution is to create U23 clubs that play a mix of each other and university teams. This is exactly what the Pleasanton Jesters have done in Northern California.


Interesting. Never heard of them, looks like a good amount of young guys.

Side note...Pleasanton is definitely not in NorCal. You gotta get to Chico before you're in NorCal man.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 08:39

TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
snapper37 wrote:
Not everybody goes to University and to honest the Uni players are generally softer then blue collar kids, we need more blue collars....

Blue Collar kids tend to be the vast majority of NCAA scholarship athletes down here...so.


...which is completely irrelevant to a place where rugby is not a scholarship sport. That said, the solution is to create U23 clubs that play a mix of each other and university teams. This is exactly what the Pleasanton Jesters have done in Northern California.


Interesting. Never heard of them, looks like a good amount of young guys.

Side note...Pleasanton is definitely not in NorCal. You gotta get to Chico before you're in NorCal man.


No, that's completely wrong. The Bay and Sac are Norcal. I don't know where you get your info from but you should probably check again.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 17:35

Coloradoan wrote:
No, that's completely wrong. The Bay and Sac are Norcal. I don't know where you get your info from but you should probably check again.


As someone from California...the Bay and Sac are not NorCal...especially when you speak to folks from the State of Jefferson. Maybe for someone from not here...it's not NorCal. Culturally we're talking massive differences as well for folks from the Bay, Central Valley, NorCal proper, and SoCal.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 20:27

TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
No, that's completely wrong. The Bay and Sac are Norcal. I don't know where you get your info from but you should probably check again.


As someone from California...the Bay and Sac are not NorCal...especially when you speak to folks from the State of Jefferson. Maybe for someone from not here...it's not NorCal. Culturally we're talking massive differences as well for folks from the Bay, Central Valley, NorCal proper, and SoCal.


I grew up in Sacramento. Sacramento is Norcal. So is the Bay. You are wrong. Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 15 Sep 2018, 21:13

Coloradoan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
No, that's completely wrong. The Bay and Sac are Norcal. I don't know where you get your info from but you should probably check again.


As someone from California...the Bay and Sac are not NorCal...especially when you speak to folks from the State of Jefferson. Maybe for someone from not here...it's not NorCal. Culturally we're talking massive differences as well for folks from the Bay, Central Valley, NorCal proper, and SoCal.


I grew up in Sacramento. Sacramento is Norcal. So is the Bay. You are wrong. Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California


See, we grew up in two different parts of California and have different cultural experiences. So no, I'm not wrong...we're just different. Calling The Bay a part of NorCal is like calling SLO a part of SoCal.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby therugbycoach » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 13:21

TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
No, that's completely wrong. The Bay and Sac are Norcal. I don't know where you get your info from but you should probably check again.


As someone from California...the Bay and Sac are not NorCal...especially when you speak to folks from the State of Jefferson. Maybe for someone from not here...it's not NorCal. Culturally we're talking massive differences as well for folks from the Bay, Central Valley, NorCal proper, and SoCal.


I grew up in Sacramento. Sacramento is Norcal. So is the Bay. You are wrong. Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California


See, we grew up in two different parts of California and have different cultural experiences. So no, I'm not wrong...we're just different. Calling The Bay a part of NorCal is like calling SLO a part of SoCal.


I spent a lot of time in Oregon and in and around Mount Shasta region and was always told that North Cal, Started at the South of Lake Tahoe and across the North of Sacremento But where it ended on the coast i cant remember ...thought maybe Sonoma and Napa were north , But SF was definetly in the South..
But then the people telling me were Old types who probably just wanted to distance themselves from places they disapproved of. and i can almost see their point

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 19:33

rufusbuck wrote:
therugbycoach wrote:
I am in complete agreement that the CoE is a waste of money. Rugby Canada is addicted to handouts, WR is dictating to Rugby Canada how it should spend the money its given. I think the entire organization needs to be blown up.


There is the root of the issue canada faces now...WR dictating, I say Rugby in Canada started to get messed up when they started following IRB reccomendations, mid 2000s . which may have worked for a lot of countries like UK, NZ, etc but they couldnt factor in all the distance, climate, etc, and the DoRs and Coaches they recommended also couldnt get there heads around it, most of these people are yes men with little real rugby experience and couldnt understand why structures and pathways (and other buzz words) dont quite work. like they do in UK where theres 15 teams in 30mile radius and you can play and train 12months a year.

I dont Understand the Center of excellence at all, stick a load of the almost top players, considering the better players are in UK, NZ, EU, USA now, and let them go to the gym, and run about doing drills but not getting pushed by their peers to improve like they would by playing games every week, as per every other national team players in the world.

The irony is if Canada had two professional sides playing in MLR or lets say the Pro14,



In some ways that would alleviate what i say above but im not sure you could find the players in Canada to fill those teams. The really promising players have been spotted and are on top pro contracts in Uk EU etc. Last year the other few better players joined MLR teams. and played better for them than they do for Canada . many of the rest of National team probably wouldn't stand out amonst own club sides, so to expect a sponsor to want to employ them in a squad with little hope of winning is not good business sense.

Most postings so far have some good points for improvement etc but without a complete rebuild of the system and mind sets i can't see anything good happening for Canadian Rugby


I cannot fathom how World Rugby or Rugby Canada intended to produce high performance men's rugby in Canada without a high performance league. Clearly people at the top knew that a real league was needed in the era of professionalism, which is why SuperLeague was created. Super League was absolutely the wrong format as it was not a development structure and neither was it in any way a viable professional sports product, but it is baffling to me that Super League was killed and then a rump youth-style tournament, CRC, allegedly replaced it. There has literally been nothing done in this country to generate a high performance league that can produce professional rugby players. In the time of professional rugby, U Sport football has added three teams in Quebec, with Laval dominating the game. There has been nothing even remotely resembling that kind of achievement in men's rugby in Canada. There is no system in Canada to rebuild. As to mindsets, I participated in a junior rugby meeting with our home sub-union, in which an RC Board Members was in attendance. I was discussing player safety related to age-grade bands and had brought a report from Scotland about the subject. After I spoke, the RC fellow's response was, "what's a cohort?". These are some genuinely inferior people, and the results show it.


If they’re going to force everyone to move to Langford for the HP camp then they should have created an MLR team in Vancouver. Everyone still practices together at Langford but the best players in the HP camp can play for the MLR team. Anyone who doesn’t make the MLR side will still practice with the team but will play for a local BC club. This creates a team in a HP league but also increases the amount of good, young players so the BC clubs don’t lose all of their talent. You can even offset some of the MLR salaries with the HP contracts.

The only downside I see to this is that Rugby Canada is involved and likely a part owner of the team.
Last edited by Tobar on Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 19:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 19:37

TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
No, that's completely wrong. The Bay and Sac are Norcal. I don't know where you get your info from but you should probably check again.


As someone from California...the Bay and Sac are not NorCal...especially when you speak to folks from the State of Jefferson. Maybe for someone from not here...it's not NorCal. Culturally we're talking massive differences as well for folks from the Bay, Central Valley, NorCal proper, and SoCal.


I grew up in Sacramento. Sacramento is Norcal. So is the Bay. You are wrong. Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California


See, we grew up in two different parts of California and have different cultural experiences. So no, I'm not wrong...we're just different. Calling The Bay a part of NorCal is like calling SLO a part of SoCal.


Lol this is funny - it’s like the upstate vs downstate New York fight except the exact opposite. I’m NY, everyone from NYC or Long Island considers everything above the city as upstate New York. People from upstate NY get offended by this and only consider places as upstate New York if they’re past Albany or even past Saratoga which is asinine.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby welshdragon2000 » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 21:20

Ontario Arrows beat Glendale 40-18. Didn’t watch the game but it seems that Ontario’s starting lineup was all Canadian which is good to see and also Glendale seemed to have a strong(?) lineup out in this one. Poor crowd by the sound of things

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 22:03

I think Glendale had some college players or other young guys, but I don't really know. It was a good game, reasonably close until the end when Ontario got a penalty try and then one more in the last 5 minutes.

Turnout was surprisingly low, I was at the game against mystics, and this was less than half of that crowd I'd say. It was harder to tell with people trying to stay out of the sun, it was crazy hot there.
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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 22:15

Tobar wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
No, that's completely wrong. The Bay and Sac are Norcal. I don't know where you get your info from but you should probably check again.


As someone from California...the Bay and Sac are not NorCal...especially when you speak to folks from the State of Jefferson. Maybe for someone from not here...it's not NorCal. Culturally we're talking massive differences as well for folks from the Bay, Central Valley, NorCal proper, and SoCal.


I grew up in Sacramento. Sacramento is Norcal. So is the Bay. You are wrong. Maybe this will help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_California


See, we grew up in two different parts of California and have different cultural experiences. So no, I'm not wrong...we're just different. Calling The Bay a part of NorCal is like calling SLO a part of SoCal.


Lol this is funny - it’s like the upstate vs downstate New York fight except the exact opposite. I’m NY, everyone from NYC or Long Island considers everything above the city as upstate New York. People from upstate NY get offended by this and only consider places as upstate New York if they’re past Albany or even past Saratoga which is asinine.


This is not an argument in real life for anyone except State of Jefferson (a tiny percentage of the population of California) types who don't want to be associated with San Francisco and the other liberal parts of Northern California. 99+% of Bay Area residents would tell you that the Bay is in Norcal. Same for Sacramento with Sacramentans. I've never met a Southern Californian in real life who didn't consider the Bay to be part of Norcal. Strobro is just a weird dude.

Getting back to the original statement about Pleasanton Jesters, they're part of the Northern California Rugby Football Union (NCRFU), as is every Bay Area rugby team. Rugby Norcal, the high school governing body for rugby in Northern California, is made up of teams almost entirely from the Bay Area and Sacramento. Or just Google "Northern California" and see what pops up. There is zero question about this in real life, again with the exception of a few State of Jefferson types.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 16 Sep 2018, 22:18

jonny24 wrote:I think Glendale had some college players or other young guys, but I don't really know. It was a good game, reasonably close until the end when Ontario got a penalty try and then one more in the last 5 minutes.

Turnout was surprisingly low, I was at the game against mystics, and this was less than half of that crowd I'd say. It was harder to tell with people trying to stay out of the sun, it was crazy hot there.


About half that roster is new, many of them young. Campbell Johnstone left Mt St Mary's to play for Glendale apparently, he's not 20 yet.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Mon, 17 Sep 2018, 08:00

Tobar wrote:
If they’re going to force everyone to move to Langford for the HP camp then they should have created an MLR team in Vancouver. Everyone still practices together at Langford but the best players in the HP camp can play for the MLR team. Anyone who doesn’t make the MLR side will still practice with the team but will play for a local BC club. This creates a team in a HP league but also increases the amount of good, young players so the BC clubs don’t lose all of their talent. You can even offset some of the MLR salaries with the HP contracts.

The only downside I see to this is that Rugby Canada is involved and likely a part owner of the team.

The BC Clubs have gained the talent from clubs in the other provinces for twenty-five years because no high performance league structure was created in Canada. Despite all pretence to the contrary, BC Premier is not high performance in the era of professional rugby. MLR is going to crash and burn in Canada unless a feeder league can create forty players per team. There are not currently forty Canadian players worth paying to watch, let alone enough for the two to four pro teams required for Canadian rugby.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 17 Sep 2018, 15:53

rufusbuck wrote:
Tobar wrote:
If they’re going to force everyone to move to Langford for the HP camp then they should have created an MLR team in Vancouver. Everyone still practices together at Langford but the best players in the HP camp can play for the MLR team. Anyone who doesn’t make the MLR side will still practice with the team but will play for a local BC club. This creates a team in a HP league but also increases the amount of good, young players so the BC clubs don’t lose all of their talent. You can even offset some of the MLR salaries with the HP contracts.

The only downside I see to this is that Rugby Canada is involved and likely a part owner of the team.

The BC Clubs have gained the talent from clubs in the other provinces for twenty-five years because no high performance league structure was created in Canada. Despite all pretence to the contrary, BC Premier is not high performance in the era of professional rugby. MLR is going to crash and burn in Canada unless a feeder league can create forty players per team. There are not currently forty Canadian players worth paying to watch, let alone enough for the two to four pro teams required for Canadian rugby.


MLR will do fine in Canada.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 18 Sep 2018, 01:06

Canada 7s Unionizing separately from the Canadian RPA and joining United Steelworkers of America: https://www.cbc.ca/sports/rugby/canadia ... -1.4826950

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby cien_almas » Tue, 18 Sep 2018, 01:41

Here's a sad and interesting note to the idea earlier in this thread around creating a U23 league - U of Alberta won't sanction the rugby club this year, which is ran entirely by student volunteers. No institutional support or interest in supporting, and realistically not a significant player base and while there is support from the local rugby clubs, it's not enough or institutionalized to really build a significant or sustainable program.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Tue, 18 Sep 2018, 02:14

cien_almas wrote:Here's a sad and interesting note to the idea earlier in this thread around creating a U23 league - U of Alberta won't sanction the rugby club this year, which is ran entirely by student volunteers. No institutional support or interest in supporting, and realistically not a significant player base and while there is support from the local rugby clubs, it's not enough or institutionalized to really build a significant or sustainable program.
There are more than enough players from north of Red Deer to make a good U23 team in a real league. U of A does not play in a real league, and holds no allure whatsoever to high performance athletes. Union or privately operated U23 is the only way for men’s rugby to adapt to professionalism

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