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Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Figaro » Mon, 09 Jul 2018, 07:47

WalesOnline are saying Samu Manoa is signing for the (Cardiff) Blues. They have some form in spreading bizarre transfer rumours that don't pan out, but usually when they categorically state someone is going to sign for a Welsh side, it happens; and they had the Arhip rumour completely correct. The coach also previously stated that "Big Names" are on their way, right before signing an unknown Welsh 7s player and disappointing everyone. But Arhip and Manoa would definitely count as big names.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rug ... n-14878706

I can imagine Scully might have been an influence, and it will definitely be to the USA's benefit - the Blues will be far more willing to release him to play for the USA than Toulon are/were; apparently he only has 20 caps despite being first picked back in 2010. Since joining the Blues I think Scully has only missed the odd ARC game.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby amz » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 10:49

Rumor so take it with a pinch of salt, Gatland -> USA after 2019 RWC

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Figaro » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 11:10

amz wrote:Rumor so take it with a pinch of salt, Gatland -> USA after 2019 RWC


Huh

That would be a very unexpected move. He's a great coach, top level, but I'm not sure how well he would do with such a radically different environment. He'll have been with Wales for over 10 years.

In interveiws he has stated he is taking 6 months off, but I guess it's possible, and he may be feeling the ABs boat has sailed. I've also heard him linked with the England job (Jones' contract runs out the same time).

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby dwpeate » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 11:19

Did Jones not sign an extension to 2021 just before their run of defeats?

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Tobar » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 12:49

Figaro wrote:
amz wrote:Rumor so take it with a pinch of salt, Gatland -> USA after 2019 RWC


Huh

That would be a very unexpected move. He's a great coach, top level, but I'm not sure how well he would do with such a radically different environment. He'll have been with Wales for over 10 years.

In interveiws he has stated he is taking 6 months off, but I guess it's possible, and he may be feeling the ABs boat has sailed. I've also heard him linked with the England job (Jones' contract runs out the same time).


This is very odd and frankly I'd be a bit against it. Never liked his demeanor, he always looks like he pulled an all nighter for an exam that he completely bombed. Sure he's a great coach but Gold has a good thing going so far and is really taking to the idea of building up a solid program and working through the grassroots. Gatland doesn't strike me as the guy who would continue that and would do much better in a more professional atmosphere. If Gold continues his success (so far he is literally Gold in the American eyes) then I would like to see what he can do past 2019 and not just dump him after the RWC - 2023 is the one that we are really aiming for after all.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby JamesWales » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 14:16

I can well believe it. It's a good quality of life, less expectations, less of a goldfish bowl than Welsh or NZ rugby, a reasonable budget, a professional league, a lot of potential..

I can see how US Rugby is appealing to be honest.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 14:47

JamesWales wrote:I can well believe it. It's a good quality of life, less expectations, less of a goldfish bowl than Welsh or NZ rugby, a reasonable budget, a professional league, a lot of potential..

I can see how US Rugby is appealing to be honest.


I second that. I mean you've got nothing to lose and a lot to win. In 2023 a direct qualification or with a big amount of luck a quarter final for the USA is not out of reach.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 14:57

RugbyLiebe wrote:In 2023 a direct qualification or with a big amount of luck a quarter final for the USA is not out of reach.


With US financial resources and PR i think Eagles can advance in T1 group really quick.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Tobar » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 17:14

JamesWales wrote:I can well believe it. It's a good quality of life, less expectations, less of a goldfish bowl than Welsh or NZ rugby, a reasonable budget, a professional league, a lot of potential..

I can see how US Rugby is appealing to be honest.


Huge pay cut though, but if he were coach he’d have lots of control and job security.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Blurandski » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 17:23

Tobar wrote:
JamesWales wrote:I can well believe it. It's a good quality of life, less expectations, less of a goldfish bowl than Welsh or NZ rugby, a reasonable budget, a professional league, a lot of potential..

I can see how US Rugby is appealing to be honest.


Huge pay cut though, but if he were coach he’d have lots of control and job security.


Not sure that it'd be too much of a pay cut, WR would be willing to shell out more to get a top-class coach, mind you, the US has one already in Gold.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 21:59

amz wrote:Rumor so take it with a pinch of salt, Gatland -> USA after 2019 RWC

Please explain to me why we would want him? Gary Gold comes in as a coach educator and someone who's willing to develop not just players but coaches across the country. Gary is three years Gatland's junior and Gatland just looks old.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby 4N » Tue, 10 Jul 2018, 22:06

Can USA poach Bryn Gatland with him? That could make it worth it.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Figaro » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 11:24

Not sure he would be suitable to be honest. If he gets fired by England, Eddie Jones would be a better bet - what he did in Japan would be much more like what the USA need than what Gatland has done with Wales.

It seems strange to say it after over ten years, but the jury's still very much out on Gatland here in Wales. Three Six Nations championships, two of them grand slams, is an impressive haul, but there's been nothing since 2013, and the record against the southern hemisphere big 3 is woeful - up until South Africa's recent implosion over the last few years (we've now beaten them 3 of the last 4 times), Gatland had won only ONE game with Wales against the Tri-Nations sides. Even Scotland has had a better record over the same time period. He introduced an up-front, direct style based on size and power which was very successful for some years, but then he failed to adapt when opposing teams became wise to it.

One narrative is that he did the best he could with the players available to him, and that the failure to adapt was simply because we didn't have the players able to play a more expansive game. The countervailing narrative is that the players were there (e.g. Gavin Henson, James Hook, Ashley Beck) but they were under-used and/or misused by the coaches, and others who might have had or developed the skills in their youth ended up regressing due to the focus on physicality and raw strength (you see this variously said of Jamie Roberts, Dan Biggar, Halfpenny, and Jonathan Davies, who once apparently said something along the lines of "I don't really know how to pass.") I suspect the reality is somewhere in the middle of course.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby amz » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 12:03

I don't like Gatland and I think he could have achieved more with Wales. I don't agree with the narrative regarding the players, at all. I struggled thinking how to find a suitable position for Hook myself, I am not convinced today he can play FH or FB or whatever at the highest level, Henson had his own issue so it's somehow unfair to put it on Gatland. As for an eventual focus on raw strength it's exactly what a USA team can bring to match the T1 sides. As a T2 nation which wants to progress, forget about slick backs play which is good to have, the first thing you need is to match the physicality upfront of T1 sides.

But to argue as a T2 country that a coach with Grand Slams, 6N titles and who lead the British & Irish Lions in their best tour in NZ from last half of century might not be good for US it is simply BS. Eddie Jones had a far worse CV when he took over Japan.

Also to argue that Gatland who wants to lead NZ is somehow at the end of his career and don't have the drive to take over one of the best countries from potential point of view is laughable. It's exactly the type of challenge where a seasoned coach would take. Different environment is sometimes exactly what a top performer like him needs.

Now I get that it might not be the best moment with Gold in charge, but this is a different issue and who knows, maybe he'll stay too if the rumor is indeed true.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Tobar » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 12:38

My reasoning with Garland is not that he is a bad coach but rather a bad fit with what the US needs. When John Mitchell was coach many thought that his resume and experience was far better than any other US coach. Yes I know some criticized his job as ABs coach but he was still the ABs coach at some point in his career and that’s no easy feat. However, he didn’t commit any time to building up the grassroots rugby in the country and just coached when he needed to and came over once a year.

I’m not suggesting that Gatland wouldn’t come over or put any energy into coaching but we need a coach who will work at it with everyone across the country in developing rugby. We don’t just need someone who will coach the top 30 players. We need a stronger base and that’s something that Gold has made an effort to show but I’m not sure what to expect from Gatland. Gold is exactly what we need now.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby amz » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 13:00

Tobar wrote:I’m not suggesting that Gatland wouldn’t come over or put any energy into coaching but we need a coach who will work at it with everyone across the country in developing rugby. We don’t just need someone who will coach the top 30 players. We need a stronger base and that’s something that Gold has made an effort to show but I’m not sure what to expect from Gatland. Gold is exactly what we need now.


It's normal for National Team coach to liaise and work with main local clubs for developing the players but I think working at grassroots level is our of job description...especially now when you have MLR. That is not grassroots level or it shouldn't be :?

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Buffalo » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 13:40

If y'all sign Gatland for whatever reason can we have Gold? Pretty please with a cherry on top haha.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby RugbySwizzie » Wed, 11 Jul 2018, 16:54

After representing the Cook Islands against Hong Kong last weekend, Sam Anderson-Heather was announced in the new Crusaders squad. This was confirmed by the Cook Islands Rugby Union Facebook page. I hope that more cookies in Super Rugby will now raise their hands for selection in the future.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby Figaro » Thu, 12 Jul 2018, 11:13

amz wrote:I don't like Gatland and I think he could have achieved more with Wales. I don't agree with the narrative regarding the players, at all. I struggled thinking how to find a suitable position for Hook myself, I am not convinced today he can play FH or FB or whatever at the highest level, Henson had his own issue so it's somehow unfair to put it on Gatland. As for an eventual focus on raw strength it's exactly what a USA team can bring to match the T1 sides. As a T2 nation which wants to progress, forget about slick backs play which is good to have, the first thing you need is to match the physicality upfront of T1 sides.

But to argue as a T2 country that a coach with Grand Slams, 6N titles and who lead the British & Irish Lions in their best tour in NZ from last half of century might not be good for US it is simply BS. Eddie Jones had a far worse CV when he took over Japan.

Also to argue that Gatland who wants to lead NZ is somehow at the end of his career and don't have the drive to take over one of the best countries from potential point of view is laughable. It's exactly the type of challenge where a seasoned coach would take. Different environment is sometimes exactly what a top performer like him needs.

Now I get that it might not be the best moment with Gold in charge, but this is a different issue and who knows, maybe he'll stay too if the rumor is indeed true.


I agree about Henson, and Hook got something like 79 caps so can hardly claim he wasn't given a chance. I think there is a definite perception though that "slick backs play" - something Wales always used to do - is something Gatland either didn't feel we could do well enough, or didn't want us to do, at least until recently. Now it feels that we are a few years behind the other 6N sides (especially Scotland and Ireland) in terms of developing that. Agree that that wouldn't necessarily be something a T2 side would want to prioritise though.

In related news, Manoa > Cardiff Blues has been confirmed.

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Re: Tier 2/3 Transfers and Player Movements 2018-19

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 15 Jul 2018, 08:22

TheStroBro wrote:
amz wrote:Rumor so take it with a pinch of salt, Gatland -> USA after 2019 RWC

Please explain to me why we would want him? Gary Gold comes in as a coach educator and someone who's willing to develop not just players but coaches across the country. Gary is three years Gatland's junior and Gatland just looks old.



Gatland's a good coach in his own right but, yip USA is onto a good thing with Gold, and if the team shows decently well in a hard pool next year I'd be surprised if Gold wasn't tempted to stay another four years as long as the back office got it's act together. as we saw with Eddie Jones, top coaches can only stay so long with a T2 team if they feel frustrated with the amateurism of the union they're working for.

I'm taking this rumour with a very large pinch of salt. There's been multiple NZ press reports saying Gatland is angling for the one thing he hasn't done in coaching, and that's coaching a NZ SR team, ideally the Chiefs. He's been doing NT coaching for quite a long time now, and the tone of the NZ articles have been that he feels he's done his time in international test rugby.

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