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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

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For
7
11%
Against
56
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby TheStroBro » Tue, 02 Jul 2019, 22:53

Blurandski wrote:If rugby did become popular all around the world it doesn't mean that small nations would fade away. Uruguay a nation of 3.5m has come 4th, 12th, 5th at the past 3 Fifa WCs. Netherlands have come 7th, 4th, DNQ, 11th, 2nd, 3rd, DNQ.

Once a sport gets past a certain number of participants in a country, performances tend to fall off for it becomes much harder to effectively scout and develop people.

Eh, not necessarily, you just need a better scouting and development apparatus. If you look at the Best teams, how much development is actually done by the Federation ? Not a whole lot. It's the professional teams or University system that end up doing all of the development when you have a large economy to support those structures provided the sport is actually popular.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Bolaroid » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 06:58

Back in the news, this time ring-fenced 12 Nations (6N + RC + Japan & Fiji):

Six Nations have reportedly held talks with unions in the southern hemisphere to create a new world championship series.

World Rugby’s proposed 12-team Nations Championship – a project they claimed they had £6.1billion in funding for a 12-year competition running over three World Cup cycles – was scrapped earlier this year due to a lack of a buy-in from the Six Nations countries who refused to accept the promotion and relegation aspects to the idea.

However, it has now emerged that the ten leading unions met up during the recent World Cup in Japan to tease out the possibility of creating a more structured Test calendar that would culminate in a final series every two or four years.

With Japan 2019 generating record revenues and television viewing figures, the UK Daily Mail have claimed union representatives held discussions in the hope of coming up with a formula that would ensure the leading teams would play each other more often.

For instance, in the current cycle of fixtures, England had only played New Zealand once in five years prior to last month’s World Cup semi-final meeting in Yokohama.

While World Rugby’s proposal was ultimately binned, with concerns of player welfare also a factor due to the number of games proposed, a less demanding schedule that would not involve every country playing each other every other season could be the key to establishing a new championship series.

Another reported crucial difference from the scrapped World Rugby plan is that the new series would be ring-fenced by restricting it to only the ten Six Nations and Rugby Championship countries, along with Fiji and Japan.

The future of the Japanese at Test level has become critical following their progress to a first-ever World Cup quarter-final. World Cup success eventually convinced the Tri-Nations to invite Argentina into their fold and create the Rugby Championship.

Now, preliminary discussions have taken place in the southern hemisphere about the possibility of inviting in Japan and Fiji, although it has also been reported that the Japanese could secure an invite to a seven-team Six Nations.

Monitoring these developments in the wings are CVC Capital Partners, the private equity firm whose talks with Six Nations were a contributory factor in that organisation not going along with World Rugby’s Nations Championship.

They have apparently agreed a still-to-be-announced £300million deal to buy 15 per cent stake in the Six Nations and are said to be in support of recent discussions in Japan to potentially establish a new world series.

World Rugby, though, would ultimately be required to give their blessing to any new tournament.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 07:16

It would be really interesting to find out, where this inferiority complex, that you need to create closed shops in a sport with national teams comes from. :roll:
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby rey200 » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 08:15

Best thing is they're gonna tap their shoulders for including two nations more.
Ceterum censeo Sex Nationes esse augendas.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 08:20

RugbyLiebe wrote:It would be really interesting to find out, where this inferiority complex, that you need to create closed shops in a sport with national teams comes from. :roll:


It's frustrating. The article talks about it running over a period of 2 or even 4 years. Which to me suggests there's plenty of room to boost involvement. This could be a structure that could take advantage of the current Test windows over a number of years to really develop the game across a far broader cross section. It could involve as many as 24 teams across four 'pools'. Three from the NH and 3 from the SH. You could incorporate inter-pool games etc. Lots of potential.

They wouldn't have to incorporate the 6Ns/RC (which still should include both Japan and Fiji). In fact, the current regional structures could all still be maintained with the goal of providing access. The idea behind giving t2 teams more exposure would be to help increase the standards. A similar exercise could be achieved via this path. Expand the ENC to 2x4 pools. Maintain the ARC, merge Asia and the Pacific into the APRC and Africa. All featuring teams that would also play in the top league allowing them to develop alongside them by gaining exposure to their increasing standard.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 08:34

I think that this is the 6 Nations strategy to prevent Pichot. Classical British upper-class strategy. Keep your shop closed, but invite some others, who might become dangerous, to silence them. That's exactly what this looks like.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 09:25

It's a friendly reminder to World Rugby that they can do exactly the same on their own and getting a bigger slice of the cake.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 08 Nov 2019, 10:47

There is literally no point in ring fencing this idea if it's being played over a 2-3 year period.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 02:47

thatrugbyguy wrote:There is literally no point in ring fencing this idea if it's being played over a 2-3 year period.


The only way I'd being willing to accept this is if all the nations involved in this structure were to forego any share of the funding dispensed by WR after the RWC. Even then I still believe it would be a mistake to restrict growth by limiting numbers.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 03:16

I feel WR would need to find a half solution. Something like the Basketball Euroleague with a combination of licenced core teams and teams that need to qualify every year. If in rugby there are 10 cartel nations+Japan, such model is not suitable for a 12 teams league. Should be 14 or 16.
Last edited by victorsra on Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 05:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 05:30

victorsra wrote:I feel WR would need to find a half solution. The Basketball Euroleague with a combination of licenced core teams and teams that need to qualify every year. If in rugby there are 10 cartel nations+Japan, such model is not suitable for a 12 teams league. Should be 14 or 16.


That would actually be a a reasonable compromise. A 2nd division could be set up with 8 teams below it playing over the same period who will qualify 4 teams to play off against the non-core 1st Div teams every two years.

The structure would still have a total of 24 teams but it would allay fears of relegation for some while allowing things like the 6 Nations to continue external to it as the would run during the current test windows.

WR could even then have a playoff system in place for the bottom four in the 2nd Div. in order to create that pathway.

The big question then would be value. The WR/Infront deal was ended up being worth £6.2b. Woukd such a structure as the above be worth similar? How much would the success of Japan factor into the calculations?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 10 Nov 2019, 20:59

Yes, but I honestly don't think a real world league, like the one proposed, could work split in 3 periods of the year. And with more than 12 teams it would create even more tension with clubs.

For me the SANZAAR countries pyramid system should me used by World Rugby as a central concept. And this would only work if big money involved, to allow Unions to have squads with central contracts. Some people don't like central contracts, but this concept is obviously problematic if players are alternating the whole year between national team and clubs without major funding (Infront-like or more) to unions to really sustain such project.

An interesting model (that would need years in advance to be established) would be:

- World League with 15 teams = 11 core teams with licences of X years without relegation (the compromise with cartel nations + the golden egg duck Japan) + 4 non-core teams, with 1 of them being relegated every year. The World League should run for +- 4 months. The best period for that is August-middle December);
- Players with 6 months contracts with Unions (that must be funded by the League) = 4 months of WL + 1 mont rest month + 1 month pre season)
- Players released to sign (if they want) for clubs/franchises to play the other 6 months (without national teams fixtures in the middle)
- Those contracts in fact could be for the whole year, with Union loaning players to clubs/franchises

So you'd have a half-half season (with Union providing players the rest)
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 11 Nov 2019, 01:46

victorsra wrote:Yes, but I honestly don't think a real world league, like the one proposed, could work split in 3 periods of the year. And with more than 12 teams it would create even more tension with clubs.

For me the SANZAAR countries pyramid system should me used by World Rugby as a central concept. And this would only work if big money involved, to allow Unions to have squads with central contracts. Some people don't like central contracts, but this concept is obviously problematic if players are alternating the whole year between national team and clubs without major funding (Infront-like or more) to unions to really sustain such project.

An interesting model (that would need years in advance to be established) would be:

- World League with 15 teams = 11 core teams with licences of X years without relegation (the compromise with cartel nations + the golden egg duck Japan) + 4 non-core teams, with 1 of them being relegated every year. The World League should run for +- 4 months. The best period for that is August-middle December);
- Players with 6 months contracts with Unions (that must be funded by the League) = 4 months of WL + 1 mont rest month + 1 month pre season)
- Players released to sign (if they want) for clubs/franchises to play the other 6 months (without national teams fixtures in the middle)
- Those contracts in fact could be for the whole year, with Union loaning players to clubs/franchises

So you'd have a half-half season (with Union providing players the rest)


You'll never get the window for that to happen. Part of the purpose of keeping it to the current windows at having the respective championships that are already in place is widening the level of exposure. So you'd have your 15/16 teams in the 1st Div. plus your teams in the 2nd Div. playing in the World League on a regular basis.

Looking at the world rankings at present you'd have the 6Ns/RC team plus Fiji and Japan. Samoa, Tonga, Georgia and Spain in the 1st Div. Then the USA, Uruguay, Romania, Russia, Portugal, Canada, Namibia and HK in the 2nd Div. From there you run the regional championships as well as the current T1 structures. This would then mean round another 12 teams would fit into the overall structure.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 11 Nov 2019, 12:41

I know. Very unlikely because it demands too much negociation. But a global SH-like split of the season (national teams-clubs) would reduce the daily tension and accomodate interests better.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Edgar » Fri, 22 Nov 2019, 15:23

This is a little old but makes some good points: World Rugby's proposed "Nations Championship" is a terrible idea for "the global game" http://tier2rugby.blogspot.com/2019/03/ ... tions.html

Also, great read here. Looks like rugby players are Fiji's main export, and who knew there was a Dutchman playing Mitre 10 provincial rugby in NZ?: Players from 'Tier 2' nations playing in Southern Hemisphere (2019) http://tier2rugby.blogspot.com/

More interesting stats:

2018 and 19 were Italy’s 8th and 9th whitewashes in 20 seasons.

Italy has now been whitewashed in 4 consecutive seasons, continuing to outstrip its previous record of 2 (2001-02).
(Scotland has 3 in a row in the 5N, 1952-54. France lost every match from 1910 to 1914 - 19 matches because they didn’t play Scotland in 1914 due to unsavouriness in their 1913 fixture).

Their losing streak in the 6N is now 22 tests.
2018 was their 11th season with a negative PD over 100 (111).

Most tests without a win, Tier 1

France: 12, E. Lesieur (1906-12)
Ireland: 10 JRW Morrow (1882-88); WR Hunter (1962-66), RB Walkington for Ireland - 10 caps, 9 losses, 1 draw (1875-82)
Scotland: 9 JH Henderson (1953-54)
Australia: 9 JV Brown (1956-58), KJ Donald, for Australia - 9 caps, 8L , 1D (1957-59)
Italy: 8 M Trevisiol (1988-1994)
South Africa: 7 OA Roux (1969-1974)
Argentina: 7 HM Garcia Simon (1990-92)
England: 6 EW Roberts (1901-1907); EL Rudd (1965-66)
Wales: 6 BR Turnbull (1925-30)
New Zealand: 3 shared by 8 players, most recently JE Black (1977-1980)

Others:

Tomas Pardo Vidal, 14 test caps for 0 wins. He played 12 times for Spain 1976-1988 and twice for the South American Jaguares in 1984.
Aleksandr Lomakin has accrued 13 caps for Ukraine (2005-12) for no wins.
Kieron Fonotia has joined those on 12 winless caps for Samoa.

Most caps for zero tries in a particular position:

All-time:
Fullback: 33, Billy Bancroft (Wales, 1890-1901)
Wing: 17, LM Notoglia (Italy, 2004-6)
Centre: 29 J Cannon (Can,2001-5)
Flyhalf: 38, Y Tamura (Jpn, 2013-19) (Record for a full career is 35, EP Elwood, Ire, 1993-99)
Scrumhalf: 63, G Begadze (Geo, 2011-19) (Record for a full career is 60, LE Pissarra, Port, 1996-2007)
Prop: 108, T Franks (NZ, 2009-19)
Hooker: 51, H Bennett (Wales, 2003-12)
Lock: 72, LC Charteris (Wales, 2004-17)
Flank: 44, TA Wood (Eng, 2011-17)
No. 8: 33, DK Denton (Sco, 2011-18)

Current (capped in 2019):
Fullback: 12, WJE Hooley (USA)
Wing: 16, G Aptsiauri (Geo)
Centre: 18, T Castelo (Italy)
Flyhalf: 38, Y Tamura (Jpn)
Scrumhalf: 63, G Begadze (Geo)
Prop: 68, JWG Marler (Eng)
Hooker: 29, EVT Taione (Tonga)
Lock: 64, BS Davies (Wales)
Flank: 23, R Wilson (Sco)
No. 8: 26 R Wilson (Sco)

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Edgar » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 19:04

With most of the world's top non-European teams now converging on the "continent" for end of season friendlies this may present an opportunity for something more practicable than the proposed World League, which would tie down the top teams completely and compound the issue of stratification.

If we can be sure of getting the top six non-European teams to visit the continent, the AIs could be organized into a meaningful championship involving four groups of three. However, teams would not play those in their own group, but those in another, with all fixtures involving European hosts against non-European visitors. Group winners would be determined on a points basis, including for & against if necessary.

Group A.............Group B
England.............New Zealand
Wales...............Argentina
Italy......…….........Fiji

Nov 1
Italy vs New Zealand, Rome
England vs Argentina, Twickenham
Wales vs Fiji, Cardiff

Nov 8
Wales vs New Zealand, Cardiff
Italy vs Argentina, Milan
England vs Fiji, Twickenham

Nov 15
England vs New Zealand, Twickenham
Wales vs Argentina, Cardiff
Italy vs Fiji, Padova

Group C.............Group D
France..............South Africa
Ireland.............Australia
Scotland............Japan

Nov 2
Ireland vs South Africa, Dublin
Scotland vs Australia, Edinburgh
France vs Japan, Marseilles

Nov 9
Ireland vs Australia, Dublin
Scotland vs Japan, Edinburgh
France vs South Africa, Paris

Nov 16
Ireland vs Japan, Dublin
Scotland vs South Africa, Edinburgh
France vs Australia, Paris

Nov 22/23
Semis:
Group A winner (England?) hosts Group D winner (SA?)
Group C winner (France?) hosts Group B winner (NZ?)

Nov 29
Final

No league, no "fusion" of 6 Nations and Rugby Championship, and certainly no promotion or relegation involving those competitions. Just an organizing of traditional end-of-season friendlies into a meaningful tournament.

Teams would be determined by rankings, so Samoa, Tonga, Canada & the US would certainly be able to earn their place. Similarly, Georgia, Romania et al would need to break into the top 6 among European teams on the rankings to become one of the host nations.

The tournament would be played as much as possible during the month of November, leaving participants free to arrange additional Autumn fixtures in October and early December, should they so wish. In the event of any team being unable to take part, they would simply be replaced by the next highest-ranked from their "region" (European or non-European).

The visiting teams would be rotated to ensure biennial contacts with European hosts (as much as possible). ie the following year Group B would comprise SA, Australia and the 5th best non-European team, while Group D would comprise NZ, Argentina and the 6th best non-European side. The year after that SA and Australia would be separated, as would NZ and Argentina, allowing new groups to be formed for the following two series.'

No competition in World Cup years.

Also, teams failing to make the cut may wish to arrange their own "2nd division," whether two groups, four or otherwise. ie Georgia, Romania & Spain in one group taking on Samoa, Tonga and the US in another, leading directly to a final. Or if possible, Georgia, Romania & Russia in one group, playing Samoa, Canada and Namibia, and Spain, Portugal and Belgium in another, taking on Tonga, the US and Uruguay, for example.

There would also be the prospect of those teams playing a first tier side outside the November window, perhaps at the end of October as a warm-up for the series itself.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 16:23

It looks like World Rugby wants to have a Nations Championship only for Tier 2... https://rugger.info/news/30783

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 18:59

It is only good for T2s if Japan are USA in (opening comercial opportunities) and if it works with home and away matches for everybody involved.

The question is: would WR be able to sell it?

Maybe the World League champions could face The Rugby Championship champions in November and the winner of it maybe could play the 6N champions in a Final Challenge in July? Something like this.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby TheStroBro » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 20:42

victorsra wrote:It is only good for T2s if Japan are USA in (opening comercial opportunities) and if it works with home and away matches for everybody involved.

The question is: would WR be able to sell it?

Maybe the World League champions could face The Rugby Championship champions in November and the winner of it maybe could play the 6N champions in a Final Challenge in July? Something like this.


"We're going to take away your only revenue generating opportunities and you better like it."

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 20:43

Why?

Obviously it is only interesting if it doesn't mess with tests. T2s must keep hosting and visiting T1s.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 21:44

Tier 2 needs to stick with regional tournaments (as well as tests against tier 1 teams). Regional tournaments winners could play in tournament hosted in one country. Something like the Nations Cup, for example, 6 teams:
Host nation
ANC winner
REC winner
African Cup winner
Asian Cup winner
PNC winner

The World League is a terrible idea. That idea needs to die and stay dead.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 23:42

How about 8-team knockout tournaments in November?

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 23:51

Chester-Donnelly wrote:Tier 2 needs to stick with regional tournaments (as well as tests against tier 1 teams). Regional tournaments winners could play in tournament hosted in one country. Something like the Nations Cup, for example, 6 teams:
Host nation
ANC winner
REC winner
African Cup winner
Asian Cup winner
PNC winner

The World League is a terrible idea. That idea needs to die and stay dead.


I disagree. I think it could have been revolutionary if they hadn't tried to integrate the likes of the RC and 6Ns into it and looked to utilise the current test windows in a biennial structured competition. Instead of a 12 team first division they should have gone with 16 split into four pools of four with two from Europe and two from the RoTW in each pool. Pool play could have been on a home and away basis for 6 game all playing in the July and November of the first year. In the 2nd year of the competition during the July window inter-pool play would occur. Meaning across the two seasons each team would get 10 games against 7 different opponents. There would be a single table ranking teams 1-16 based on their performance in this stage.

The November window would then be used as the finals. Top 8 go into the Cup finals. The next 8 into the Shield. Both played in a central location. From there you could either have run it as a straight knockout or split them into two pools of 4 once again with teams playing each other once. Winner or each pool play in the final. The other play for ranking. Similar for the 2nd group but with the game between the two bottom placed team also being the playoff for relegation. With the loser being automatically regulated.

The could have also run another 16 team 2nd division structured exactly the same as the first with the overall winner being promoted to the 1st division.

A third division could then be set out based on the respective regional competition sans the teams in the top 2 divisions. But with Oceania/Pacific and Asia combined (seeing as Fiji, Samoa and Tonga would all be in the top 2 divisions likely the 1st). Same set up. Home and away in the first year. Cross regional in the second July and finals in that November with auto promotion for the winner.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 25 Jan 2020, 00:08

The basic problem is they are trying to invent any way of showing they want to develop the have-nots without disturing those who have. And as long as that is the main principle driving any discussion on international rugby we are losing our time. It doesn't matter which format do we prefer, the only change will be some Tier 2 will be better than others depending on whether it favors a central contracts model or those able to call players evolving abroad, but none will make a dramatic change in rugby scene.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Unread postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 25 Jan 2020, 00:32

Armchair Fan wrote:The basic problem is they are trying to invent any way of showing they want to develop the have-nots without disturing those who have. And as long as that is the main principle driving any discussion on international rugby we are losing our time. It doesn't matter which format do we prefer, the only change will be some Tier 2 will be better than others depending on whether it favors a central contracts model or those able to call players evolving abroad, but none will make a dramatic change in rugby scene.


I'm going to be honest here. They would have been stupid to blow everything up in order to satisfy the lesser Unions. It's a tough pill to swallow but the 10 teams that form the spine of WR's structure also generate the vast, vast majority of revenue for the game beyond the RWC and their presence at that event also drives the majority of that. The original offer would not have been half of what it was without them. Likely a whole lot less in fact.

So WR and it's ability to generate such offers needs them. Tough but true. That doesn't mean that their presence and selling factor couldn't have have huge impacts on a number of T2 Unions. And that influx of funding would have allowed many to accelerate their development and begin to close the gap at a faster clip. Yes, it wouldn't have lead to the mass engagement many would have wanted but the increased level of resourcing it would have delivered would have seen results improve.

This would then allow teams to show that improvement at things like the RWC. Japan is an example of this. They were T2 in 2003. Quite clearly. But over the years worked at it and performed beyond expectation last year. They are now receiving T1 teams from this year forward. And yes, they did get some exposure to T1 nations in the years leading in. But most of those teams weren't exactly the full strength national teams. And they still played a lot of T2 Rugby.

If say Spain were in the 2nd Division but started to top it on a regular basis I can almost guarantee you'd see more engagement from T1 nations pretty quickly. As would the US or Canada etc.

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