Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

German rugby

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Re: German rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 08 Sep 2019, 03:25

thatrugbyguy wrote:We can't blame the players. It's the system itself that's broken. If it was a case where German rugby was at a T1 level, with full professionalism throughout the country and opportunities for the national team to play at the World Cup or the 6N then the player would be rightfully criticised for pursuing an All Black jersey, because then it's someone choosing the All Black brand over their national colours. The problem is the players can only go where the opportunities are.


We can fully blame the player. How about having some pride playing for your own country whatever their ranking rather than taking off to somewhere else that has a better team. @Sanitycheck. The PI players mostly were born in NZ or arrived when they were very young so were brought up in our system so a completely different scenario.

This reminds me of the NZ football player Wynton Rufer in the 80s who won the Bundesliga golden boot with Werder Bremen and could've played for Germany (They asked him), or even Switzerland (country of birth) but stuck with NZ where he and his brother were brought up. Now there's a good example of having some pride in your own country!

btw as someone mentioned about the Irish provinces, adn of course also relates to the other home nation and French clubs, someone should sue them for restraint of trade under EU rules (of course the Uk clubs probably won't count for much longer with Brexit but...) when it comes to players from other EU countries. That would help Germans, Dutch etc

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Re: German rugby

Postby dropkick » Sun, 08 Sep 2019, 07:14

YamahaKiwi wrote:
btw as someone mentioned about the Irish provinces, adn of course also relates to the other home nation and French clubs, someone should sue them for restraint of trade under EU rules (of course the Uk clubs probably won't count for much longer with Brexit but...) when it comes to players from other EU countries. That would help Germans, Dutch etc



That's ridiculous but the EU is so nutty it might work. :lol:

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Re: German rugby

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sun, 08 Sep 2019, 23:47

Is it ridiculous? I thought EU labour laws guaranteed freedom to work in other EU countries. And if one is being stopped from working in another EU country by a rule that stipulates only employes from that nation or those willing to represent that nation in the future can be employed in that country, then is that rule in contravention of EU labour laws? Maybe someone with some knowledge of such laws can enlighten me on those laws and how they apply to professional rugby in Europe.

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Re: German rugby

Postby vino_93 » Mon, 09 Sep 2019, 06:00

YamahaKiwi wrote:Is it ridiculous? I thought EU labour laws guaranteed freedom to work in other EU countries. And if one is being stopped from working in another EU country by a rule that stipulates only employes from that nation or those willing to represent that nation in the future can be employed in that country, then is that rule in contravention of EU labour laws? Maybe someone with some knowledge of such laws can enlighten me on those laws and how they apply to professional rugby in Europe.


In France, the JIFF rule is fine with that. It imposes a minimum number of player locally trained, whatever their nationality is.

I don't know how Ireland and UK are doing.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 09 Sep 2019, 06:56

YamahaKiwi wrote:This reminds me of the NZ football player Wynton Rufer in the 80s who won the Bundesliga golden boot with Werder Bremen and could've played for Germany (They asked him), or even Switzerland (country of birth) but stuck with NZ where he and his brother were brought up. Now there's a good example of having some pride in your own country!


Rufer, was born in Wellington and played for the Nz national team BEFORE going to Europe (debut 1980). Nobody asked him from Germany, as you are blocked after a cap AND because he never had a German passport (the only eligibility rule in soccer is, that you need to be a citizen in soccer and obviously never played for another stil existing country)


As vino wrote the French rule is totally fine (and fair imho). The Irish rule will fall, when the first guy decides to bring it to a court. The British rules are probably irrelevant if they finally find out, if they really want their Brexit.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 09 Sep 2019, 08:28

YamahaKiwi wrote:Is it ridiculous? I thought EU labour laws guaranteed freedom to work in other EU countries. And if one is being stopped from working in another EU country by a rule that stipulates only employes from that nation or those willing to represent that nation in the future can be employed in that country, then is that rule in contravention of EU labour laws? Maybe someone with some knowledge of such laws can enlighten me on those laws and how they apply to professional rugby in Europe.


There has not been a test case in European rugby to decide.

Spanish basketball uses a similar-system to JIFF and was found compliant, I think they had a lower figure though of 50% but cannot remember honestly. I cannot imagine the EQP rules even passing a British court to be honest, they clearly restrict your right to work even within the UK.

But unless someone challenges them they remain on the books.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 09 Sep 2019, 09:49

Spanish basketball requires 4/12 (down from 4/11 or 5/12 due to EU complaints) players coming from local academies, but once again it doesn't discriminate by nationality or national team eligibility. We've got plenty of Balkanic, South American and African players who comply with that quota.

So far ACB has only 61 Spanish-born players out of 224 (27%).

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Re: German rugby

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 09 Sep 2019, 15:05

Thanks for the info, I know it was "JIFF" like in that regard but 5/12 is 41% so significantly lower than all the rugby quotas that exist.

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Re: German rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 09 Sep 2019, 17:42

RugbyLiebe wrote:
YamahaKiwi wrote:The Dutch guy went and got contracts In England and Scotland and got picked up by the latter. If he's not good enough to make the ABs he can always move and it would seem he will be good enough for a pro contract in Europe and can make himself available for their NT (Of course nowdays he would have to wait 5 years rather than just the 3...too bad in my opinion if you cannot stand to play for your own country). Otherwise other German guys got pro contracts in France and played (sometimes) for Germany. TBH I'd love it if he could get a SR contract here, and still play for Germany but as you said, with just a few exceptions, the NZRFU doesn't like to see that in our SR teams.


Tim Visser is actually a really interesting guy. I mean it is really strange that there are so few rugby players from smaller European nations playing within the Home Nations. The ratio of Georgians in France compared to the Home Nations is telling a lot. So what did the exception Visser do differently then all the others? There are a fews guys in France (that's why I wrote "apart from France). On the other hand, Visser moved to England in the 2000s, has something changed since then or is he the odd exception?

The situation in Ireland is like the situation in New Zealand, afaik Sebastian Fromm, traded his chances to play for a Leinster academy to play for Germany 7s.

The upside: In France the academy system apparently force their player to study or learn a trade while being under contract there. Eric Marks continued to study at the German university in Aachen while playing in La Rochelle. Not sure if he finished his studies though.

I mean there are ways, but compared to other sports, it is quite difficult and probably one of the main reasons rugby is kept back. Those players in better leagues is what makes smaller national teams better.



The Toulouse Academy...is an actual Academie in the French sense. Their players attend the University of Toulouse.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 10 Sep 2019, 07:56

TheStroBro wrote:
The Toulouse Academy...is an actual Academie in the French sense. Their players attend the University of Toulouse.


I researched it, as I think that's interesting. Well, it is no way near a Greek Akademeia in the classic sense, as the center is still rugby. But as other clubs as well, they want to make sure that their players learn a trade or (when they are smart enough) go to a university. About 80% get some kind of diplom, that's great, but not academic in a non-anglican sense of education (same as most college degrees i.e.).

But let's move away from my pedantism.
Here is how they describe themselves. A good read.
https://www.stadetoulousain.fr/centre-d ... /scolarite
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby vino_93 » Tue, 10 Sep 2019, 12:07

RugbyLiebe wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
The Toulouse Academy...is an actual Academie in the French sense. Their players attend the University of Toulouse.


I researched it, as I think that's interesting. Well, it is no way near a Greek Akademeia in the classic sense, as the center is still rugby. But as other clubs as well, they want to make sure that their players learn a trade or (when they are smart enough) go to a university. About 80% get some kind of diplom, that's great, but not academic in a non-anglican sense of education (same as most college degrees i.e.).

But let's move away from my pedantism.
Here is how they describe themselves. A good read.
https://www.stadetoulousain.fr/centre-d ... /scolarite


"Académie" are mandatory for every club involved with the LNR, which means in the Top 14 & Pro D2. They have to propose a "double degree", with rugby + studies. Of course, it's easier when you are in a big city like Toulouse or Paris than in small cities like Mont-de-Marsan or Castres ... for example in Oyonnax there's only a BTS (smallest degree after the BAC), whereas in Toulouse you can do masters.

The level of studies doesn't really matter. What matters is that everyone can have a job if he doesn't become a pro player. So you can go from a cooking diplom to a Master, it's up to everyone. Then, there's a classification and the best receive money.
Here is the last ranking : https://www.lnr.fr/ligue-nationale-rugb ... centres-de
and how it's done : https://www.lerugbynistere.fr/news/comm ... 151148.php

Here is a good article about the one in Bordeaux : https://www.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue89-r ... egles.html
Last edited by vino_93 on Tue, 10 Sep 2019, 14:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 10 Sep 2019, 12:41

Great post vino, makes absolutely clear how this works.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Caledor » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 13:51

If Segner's pathway (hopefully no severe injuries, off field events or criminal happenings) takes him to Mitre10 Cup and then Super Rugby then that is excellent for him. If he plays for AB's one day good on him. A rugby career is short, if you pursue becoming a pro and get to be a pro you are sacrificing a lot of potential opportunities to acquire skills, experience, diplomas, degrees and knowkledge in the professional world away from rugby.

If he does not make Mitre10 Cup or Super Rugby then I am sure he will review his career and look at other possible pathways and options to get and stay pro. German supporters will hopefully get this context. I am sure he is aware he can play for Germany and to be honest why should he if he can get a crack at AB's one day. German rugby is a complete shambles. You look at the dramas with DRV and Wild last year, the funding issues at National level, constant squabbling in DRV management levels, the clueless strategic direction and management, turnstiles for national teams coaches coming and going and then how the DRV actually treat the national team players occasionally and you'll be put off as a player to play for Germany team.

Unless DRV sort themselves out you will see the national team perform poorly for a long while to come :D.

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Re: German rugby

Postby Saracenswulfpackdef » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 19:47

Due to very recent event, I'd like to go back to a topic that agitated a few fellows here quiete recently: Luxembourg.
First no licence, leaving the Southern leg of the top German Bundesliga impaired.
Then reinstated, they did not get enough players together to host and play lowly Pforzheim. That does not bode well at all for them. They travelled poorly, but at home they used to be a threat.
Question: How often are they allowed to do this [not turn up], what are the sanctions?
(I had preferred if likeable Neckarsulm stayed up. Or flamboyant Rottweil being promoted. In Luxembourg's stead.)

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Re: German rugby

Postby Platonese » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 21:14

AFAIK the regulations only allow to forfeit only one match. After a second no show the team is relegated and all games played by the team so far are cancelled.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 15 Sep 2019, 19:47

Frankfurt 1880 U20 had a very successful trip to Ireland this weekend beating Old Weasley's U20 20:14 on friday and Leinster U20 champions Terenure College 19:17 on sunday.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 06:23

A lot of news from Germany.

XVs: the side will be coached by two of the most capped players in our history in the RET games in november: Alexander Widiker (65 caps) and Mark Kuhlmann (48 caps).

7s: After Vuyo Zangqa resigned this summer to head back to South Africa for personal reasons, he is now replaced by Damian McGrath. If you don't know him, that's the coach who lead Samoa and Canada to tournament victories on the 7s World Series.

I am really excited for The Oktoberfest7s in Munich taking place this saturday and sunday. First time I ever heard rugby ads on radio, etc. Let's hope the attendance is great. The lineup is about the best you can get in 7s with NZ, Fiji, Australia, USA, England, France, South Africa and European champions Germany.

First I didn't like the idea of having just 8 teams, but it turns out that probably a less time-consuming event makes probably a lot of sense to introduce rugby to an attendance who still thinks that "rugby is the game played with the helmet".
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: German rugby

Postby novac » Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 08:33

https://oktoberfest7s.com/
Nice for you Rugby Lovers from München and all the visitors that will come to the Oktoberfest. Have fun! I'm sure the weather will be ok this weekend to enjoy the games.

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