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2017 Women's World Cup

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 08:42

Armchair Fan wrote:In Argentina clubs are reluctant to let women play. We're talking about the same clubs that want to keep amateur status forever.


The same clubs could help produce an international women's team that could genuinely compete for the world cup. It's just crazy to me. I'm assuming hockey is the sport girls take up the most in Argentina.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 09:23

According to a quick count, 63 tries, 29 conversions, 0 successful penalty kicks and 0 drop goals on day one

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 09:40

TheStroBro wrote:Man I don't even want to know how you qualify for the WC when the 8 teams ahead of HK are left out, and the 3 teams ahead of JPN are left out. Some the SCO internationals that are amazing we don't get to see. :(


Simple answer: as in all varients of men's rugby, Europe does not get the adequate representation its depth and numbers of active Unions do represent. But with a 12 team world cup it is good to have every continent with women's rugby represented. Scotland happened what normally happens to t2 or t3 countries in Europe.

BUT: I wouldn't also not use the Women's World Rankings to judge who should be there. Germany is ranked at 19 and hasn't played between 2010-2016 at all.
Kazakhstan (nr. 17) seem to have stopped fielding a 15s womens team.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 09:47

Germany played some months ago against a British Army XV, they just didn't engage to Rugby Europe championship. And Kazakhstan played some unofficial games against Hong Kong while banned by Asia Rugby, even if they are reported to focus on 7s. There is a basis to reactivate teams if World Rugby wanted to expand or at least make a more global qualifying process.

I mean, it sounds harsh and everybody is happy to see Hong Kong enter the world stage, but it's not crazy to think South Africa, Samoa, Scotland, Netherlands or Kazakhstan could do better. It's not a question of having a look at World Rankings, it's obvious Portugal wouldn't beat other European sides in Top 25, but of remembering other international performances by these nations.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 10:05

WR needs to have a better women's program internationally. The Wallaroos have played maybe half a dozens games since the last world cup which is a complete load of crap. The womens world cup isn't going to evolve if half the bloody teams don't play games between tournaments. This is a joke. And what are the unions doing? Can't WR and the unions not work out some form regular international matches for these teams? 6 Nations ladies at least get 5 games a year, is it too much to ask to have something resemble a women's Rugby Championship?

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Thomas » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 11:16

thatrugbyguy wrote:WR needs to have a better women's program internationally. The Wallaroos have played maybe half a dozens games since the last world cup which is a complete load of crap. The womens world cup isn't going to evolve if half the bloody teams don't play games between tournaments. This is a joke. And what are the unions doing? Can't WR and the unions not work out some form regular international matches for these teams? 6 Nations ladies at least get 5 games a year, is it too much to ask to have something resemble a women's Rugby Championship?


Absolutely right, there is an article in Today's Guardian raising the same issue. I am worried about the long term future of the XV Program it has been sacrificed by short terms gains in terms of 7's and the Olympic Program is a contradiction that the Men's XV is flourishing despite the Olympics and the Women's has been left behind.

It begs the question: Do various unions around the world want Women's XV a side rugby to flourish at all? it might take some money away from the men's game

We will never know how big the Women's game can get unless Unions and Federations make some proper investment of both time and money in it over a decent period of time. it's a risk but without taking the chance we won't know.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... cup-legacy

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby grande » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 11:45

Thomas wrote:In terms of Kazakhstan I thought they were reinstated and rebuilding their program?


If my memory is correct, they were reinstated after qualification had completed.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 12:00

Scorers after day one (my calculation). Sunday there's New Zealand v Hong Kong, we may expect big changes in this ranking

Harvey CAN 41 (5 tries)
Wilson ENG 20 (4)
Winiata NZE 15 (3)
Russell CAN 15 (3)
Ladagnous FRA 15 (3)
Amedee FRA 13 (1)
Wickliffe NZE 10 (2)
Thomas USA 10 (2)
Burk CAN 10 (2)
Alarie CAN 10 (2)
Thornborough CAN 10 (2)
Guiglion FRA 10 (2)
Menager FRA 10 (2)
Deshayes FRA 10 (2)

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 12:32

Thomas wrote:
Absolutely right, there is an article in Today's Guardian raising the same issue. I am worried about the long term future of the XV Program it has been sacrificed by short terms gains in terms of 7's and the Olympic Program is a contradiction that the Men's XV is flourishing despite the Olympics and the Women's has been left behind.

It begs the question: Do various unions around the world want Women's XV a side rugby to flourish at all? it might take some money away from the men's game

We will never know how big the Women's game can get unless Unions and Federations make some proper investment of both time and money in it over a decent period of time. it's a risk but without taking the chance we won't know.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... cup-legacy


There's a sevens program being set up down here but no talk of 15's. Women's sport down here at least has boomed in the last couple of years and as far as I'm concerned the ARU should be doing something to capitalise on it. What's the point of having a women's World Cup if there's little desire to have the women play regular fixtures internationally? It's going to be even less of a contest than the men's cup if nothing is done about it. The girls need and probably want to improve but they need the help to do it. I get money is an issue but are they seriously saying we can't scrape together enough money for a couple of trans-Tasman tests each year for the Lady AB's and the Wallaroos at the very least?

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby johnbirch » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 19:12

If you judge World Rugby by their actions (rather than their honeyed words) it is abundantly clear that if there was not a WRWC they would not develop it. They seem more than happy for XVs not to develop. I am trying to think of instances where the IRB/WR have actively promoted the development of women's XVs. Ever. And (bearing in mind that the WRWC was not developed by them) I cannot think of any. I can think of plenty where they have obstructed development.

At regional level FIRA/Rugby Europe have been amazing over the years, the Asian RU have been pretty good as well, tiny NAWIRA were great (RAN less so), but the other regional confederations have been no better than WR.

Why? It can't be just money, surely?

The attitude of WR makes no sense. Look at the crowds. Look at the TV audiences. Look at the media interest. Compare and contrast with sevens. 15s is what everyone apart from WR want. But if women's XVs contracted down to a strange western European and North American curiosity, played by 8/9 teams, with 7s being "women's rugby" globally, I do not think a single tear would be shed by WR.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 19:54

This is what I had after Day 1
1 ENG 2 CAN 3 NZ 4 IRE 5 FR 6 AUS 7 USA 8 WAL 9 ITA 10 ESP 11 JPN 12 HK

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Thu, 10 Aug 2017, 20:38

Japanese centre Tomita has been suspended for three weeks (three matches) due to an high tackle in the game with France. She will return on the field at the last day of the World Cup

Italian hooker Cammarano has suffered a tibia fracture just after having scored her try against USA and will be out of the field for six-eight months :( At least she will pass her convalescence with the memory of her World Cup try

The official website of the World Cup is good to me. I just complain for the still empty "photos to download" section and for the absence of the traditional section "statistics" (with scorers ranking etc.); at least, I haven't found it http://www.rwcwomens.com

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby ugrugbychiclet » Fri, 11 Aug 2017, 08:58

Canalina wrote:Hong Kong surprisingly and largely defeated Fiji in the qualifiers, so they deserved their spot
Argentina female XV team doesn't exist, South Africa renounced, Samoa renounced, Fiji was eliminated by the asians, Russia has been eliminated in the european qualifying, Scotland too, Tonga XV doesn't exist, Uruguay and Brazil XV don't exist...
Kenya and Uganda renounced too, but anyway they are still (perhaps) not at the level of Hong Kong

It's difficult to read complete WRWC statistics. I've seen that in 2002 a black fern, Vanessa Cootes, scored 5 tries in a match as Harvey did yesterday, but I don't know if someone has done even better


Kenya and Uganda did not renounce. They were excluded by RA/WR so their unions now have pretty much abandonned women's international 15s to focus on 7s.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Fri, 11 Aug 2017, 10:45

You are right, I forgot it

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 11 Aug 2017, 11:46

johnbirch wrote:If you judge World Rugby by their actions (rather than their honeyed words) it is abundantly clear that if there was not a WRWC they would not develop it. They seem more than happy for XVs not to develop. I am trying to think of instances where the IRB/WR have actively promoted the development of women's XVs. Ever. And (bearing in mind that the WRWC was not developed by them) I cannot think of any. I can think of plenty where they have obstructed development.

At regional level FIRA/Rugby Europe have been amazing over the years, the Asian RU have been pretty good as well, tiny NAWIRA were great (RAN less so), but the other regional confederations have been no better than WR.

Why? It can't be just money, surely?

The attitude of WR makes no sense. Look at the crowds. Look at the TV audiences. Look at the media interest. Compare and contrast with sevens. 15s is what everyone apart from WR want. But if women's XVs contracted down to a strange western European and North American curiosity, played by 8/9 teams, with 7s being "women's rugby" globally, I do not think a single tear would be shed by WR.


Not only that but the schedule being asked of the women is ludicrous. 5 matches in 16 days would be absurd for professional players let alone amateurs. And the format is unfair to the runners up in the groups too, why should 2 of the 3 second place teams miss out on finals? I watched a video from WR claiming they are on track to have 40% of the player base be women, I'm betting most of that is coming from sevens.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 12 Aug 2017, 00:11

No rosters for the 2nd round yet

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Neptune » Sat, 12 Aug 2017, 06:20

what are the schedules for todays games?

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby sjbret » Sat, 12 Aug 2017, 07:47

johnbirch wrote:The attitude of WR makes no sense. Look at the crowds. Look at the TV audiences. Look at the media interest. Compare and contrast with sevens. 15s is what everyone apart from WR want. But if women's XVs contracted down to a strange western European and North American curiosity, played by 8/9 teams, with 7s being "women's rugby" globally, I do not think a single tear would be shed by WR.

Women XV is living a slow agony. Without the 2014 popular and TV success, there wouldn't be doubtless a world cup anymore. It always exists but with qualifications at a minimal level. The aim remains definitely to promote 7's.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 12 Aug 2017, 08:19

Neptune wrote:what are the schedules for todays games?

Games are tomorrow.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby stuartdm » Sat, 12 Aug 2017, 12:56

sjbret wrote:
johnbirch wrote:The attitude of WR makes no sense. Look at the crowds. Look at the TV audiences. Look at the media interest. Compare and contrast with sevens. 15s is what everyone apart from WR want. But if women's XVs contracted down to a strange western European and North American curiosity, played by 8/9 teams, with 7s being "women's rugby" globally, I do not think a single tear would be shed by WR.

Women XV is living a slow agony. Without the 2014 popular and TV success, there wouldn't be doubtless a world cup anymore. It always exists but with qualifications at a minimal level. The aim remains definitely to promote 7's.


But in England there's very little 7s played, it's nearly all 15s - even though the RFU are only paying the international 7s players after this tournament..

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby victorsra » Sat, 12 Aug 2017, 15:09

Women's XV needs a proper 4-years calendar and more visibility for the World Cup. I see these problems now:

- There is just ONE real anual competition in Women's XVs: the Six Nations. USA, Canada, NZ have a calendar, but it is far away from what the 6N does for the Europeans. Australia has a ridiculous amount of activities, Spain fight almost alone to have a proper calendar, the Asian Championship is now a 2-teams afair and that's it;

- The format of the Womens World Cup is not good and it is the same of the World U20s Championship! In fact, it probably costs World Rugby the same as the U20s Championship, BUT the Womens competition is played just once every 4 years, while men's U20s play every year. AND the men's U20s have even an anual second division. Clearly women's XVs is the last concern of World Rugby and has the smallest budget.

However, XVs is crucial to make the women's game solid. A country that just has women's sevens just show that the women's teams have scarce squads, which is a problem for their future. Women don't play just sevens in most countries because they like it more, it is just their only possibility. And this must become a concern. Probably in a medium term just Womens sevens will be professional in the majority of countries, because it has the Olympics appeal and it is cheaper. But this does not mean we can't have a strong amateur XVs right now to have the chance that in a long term it turns a sustainable professional game. Countries like England and France can do this step quicker, but I am talking about a global scenario.

About the calendar and the visibility, as Womens XVs doesn't have proper anual competitions (apart Six Nations) and travel costs are always a concern, maybe the best strategy now would be to have a Womens World Cup every two years! One independent, like now in 2017, and another one played and promoted together with the men's Rugby World Cup! In other words, The Rugby World Cup, starting in 2023 or 2027, could be one event with two tournaments, men's and women's!

The fans travel to watch the men's World Cup and there are some empty days in the calendar where the womens competition would fit perfectly. Fans would buy the tickets because they are already there seeking tickets and fun! At least there would be more tickets sold there than in a Womens World Cup organized alone. People will be there, so let's take profit of that and promote the womens XVs too! And you definitly don't need extra stadiums and double header fixtures in the same stadiums would be more than good. It is a win-win.

More than this, the women's teams would get lots of extra support for two reasons: 1 - you could give an extra honour/award/trophy for a country that wins BOTH men's and women's cups. It would be for the World Cup what a Grand Slam is for the Six Nations; 2 - if a men's team fails, be sure people will look to their women's teams. For countries like USA and Canada it would be awesome.

With this, a 4-years calendar would be:

2020 - Qualy
2021 - Women's World Cup (independent tournament) - 12/16 teams
2022 - Qualy
2023 - Womens World Cup (together with the men's) - 8 or 12 teams (it can't have large scores! This is the tournament to market the women's XV)


Idea for the Qualy (zero teams pre-qualified!) of a 12-teams WC (more or less teams need just a variation of this):

- Six Nations > 5 best = World Cup
- Super Series (NZ, AUS, CAN, USA always) > 3 best = World Cup
- Qualy 1 - 6N 6th, Rest of Europe 1, Rest of Europe 2, Africa 1 > 2 best = World Cup
- Qualy 2 - Super Series 4th, Asia 1, Rest of Oceania/Asia2, Rest of Americas 1 > 2 best = World Cup 2
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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 12 Aug 2017, 22:19

USA V. ESP Preview:
https://youtu.be/Lmt833P_8-k

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Canalina » Sun, 13 Aug 2017, 05:30

Nice to see Carla Hohepa back on the starting team of a World Cup match
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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby Thomas » Sun, 13 Aug 2017, 13:55

victorsra wrote:Women's XV needs a proper 4-years calendar and more visibility for the World Cup. I see these problems now:

- The format of the Womens World Cup is not good and it is the same of the World U20s Championship! In fact, it probably costs World Rugby the same as the U20s Championship, BUT the Womens competition is played just once every 4 years, while men's U20s play every year. AND the men's U20s have even an anual second division. Clearly women's XVs is the last concern of World Rugby and has the smallest budget.

However, XVs is crucial to make the women's game solid. A country that just has women's sevens just show that the women's teams have scarce squads, which is a problem for their future. Women don't play just sevens in most countries because they like it more, it is just their only possibility. And this must become a concern. Probably in a medium term just Womens sevens will be professional in the majority of countries, because it has the Olympics appeal and it is cheaper. But this does not mean we can't have a strong amateur XVs right now to have the chance that in a long term it turns a sustainable professional game. Countries like England and France can do this step quicker, but I am talking about a global scenario.



You hit the nail on the head until WR start making a concerted effort the XV Program will still suffer. I don’t agree that is cheaper just that is different. You still have the costs of creating an elite program
I was in Mexico in January and speaking to women players they said they have no other choices in terms of Rugby. Further women team’s sports in Mexico are very limited and 7's is a route if they want to participate. Having shown them XV some told me more friends of theirs would play as they would see the appeal of XV instead of 7.
4 years ago I was in Peru and the women had a US Tour but they couldn't play XV Rugby against them they just had no understanding and couldn't play, The US team play 7's but where not happy as they had organised the tour as a XV team. I spoke to the Peru Players but unless the authorities make an effort to setup a XV Program they are hampered they realised there are more skills but what can they do?
The game is expanding but not as it should. why can't there be professional Women's XV? WR is using 7 and the Olympics, the recent cancellations of professional contracts in the UK for XV players show the code is in dire situation hence why we are here watching a World Cup that leaves much to be desired. I get frustrated in trying to explain that both codes need each.
Having the same teams year in year out is not going to help and the status quo will not change. A step in the right direction is expanding the amount of teams participating in the next World Cup and make an announcement ASAP as to the next host.

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Re: 2017 Women's World Cup

Postby victorsra » Sun, 13 Aug 2017, 14:27

NZ 121-00 HK - FT
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