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Rugby in the Netherlands

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 18:20

Results matchday 1

Pool A
RC 't Gooi - RC La Hulpe 19 - 3
RC Hilversum - RC Soignies 57 - 7

Pool B
Dendermondse RC - DIOK LRC 29 - 32
Rugby Ottignies Club - EZRC Oemoemenoe 32 - 7

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 19:07

So only fourth Dutch team lost against a Belgian club... They would make a much better impression in Continental Shield...

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby hag » Mon, 03 Sep 2018, 09:22

Armchair Fan wrote:So only fourth Dutch team lost against a Belgian club... They would make a much better impression in Continental Shield...



Don't forget this a "Pre-season tournament". I don't know if all teams can count on their full squads and if this competition a priority to them.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby louizar » Tue, 04 Sep 2018, 12:24

Yes,

I know that La Hulpe and Dendermonde were playing with half of their squad againt teams that were pretty much unchanged to last season. Having this competition later in the season would represent better the true level of each competition.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 08:10

Yeah, my idea also.

Historically, Dutch clubs have had a slight edge over their Belgian counterparts but in general this difference was small.
But as they say, historical results are no guarantee for the present or the future.
Last weekend for example Dendermonde had their first run-out with 8 new players (among which quite some New Zealanders) under a new coach.
Their oppenents DIOK has 6 core players (among which 5 foreigners) replaced over the summer by 7 imports. So these games are all about testing combinations and gameplans.

That being said, I genuinely have the impression that this competition is taken seriously.
It is starting from scratch with probably little resources but games were streamed live, kick-off times scheduled so that games (within one country) would not clash, post match interviews in front of sponsorboards to satisfiy the sponsors of both the Belgian and Dutch unions.
With that it has the full support of the unions. The other week both unions signed an agreement this competition will be incorporated in the national calendars for at least the coming 4 years. Dutch national head coach Gareth Gilbert even acted as co-commentator on the stream for the 't Gooi - La Hulpe match.

As I understood it the initiative for this competition has come from the (top) clubs. I didn't have the time to watch the streams but I did catch parts of the post match interviews and judging by this players and coaches showed real enthousiasm to have this opportunity to play against better and unfamiliar opposition.
In the past I have always found Dutch rugby rather complacent and happy to be on top of the domestic game.
This appears to be changing and the union, but especially the clubs now appear te become more 'internationally aware'.

This is propably due to the establishment of the (now 6) rugby academies in the last 10 years en the National HP Training Centre now 2 years ago. There young players are growing up with a career in rugby in mind. From a young age they have worked and aimed to play high level rugby when grown up. Some of them will get an opportunity abroad but many of them will have to be accomodated domestically.
They bring an ambition and a certain level of professional attitude to the clubs and are forcing them to orientate more internationally.

This first edition of the BeNeCup is a first step. But to grow and gain profile it needs to expand and move from 'pre-season' to 'in-season'.
It's babysteps now and we will have to wait and see how it develops. But so far I like it.
Last edited by Silver Fox on Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 11:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 08:27

Livestreams on the Rugby Nederland streaming channel: https://www.livebroadcast.nl/category/rugby/

Results and standings: https://www.rugby.nl/page/benecup-2018

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 10:34

Next week domestic competitions kick off and again there has been a (slight) increase in the number of participating teams.
The biggest rise is in the number of adults teams whereas the number of youth teams seams to be somewhat stagnant.
Not only have 6 new clubs registered with the union but it seems that the wave of new young players is starting to appear in the adult teams.

Image
Note that the U18 numbers were inflated from 2016 to 2018 because it was U19 then.

It is an encouraging sign that the boost rugby has had after RWC2015 wasn't just a hype and that Rugby Nederland has managed to consolidate the participation numbers and the apparent increase in interest in the sport.
This is obviously helped by the regulation that the tier a club is allowed to play in is determined by the number of youth teams a club has (among other organisational requirements).
I hope that next year in a similar way also RWC2019 can give Dutch (and other nations') rugby another boost.
Last edited by Silver Fox on Mon, 12 Nov 2018, 23:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Sat, 08 Sep 2018, 17:03

Results matchday 2

Pool A
La Hulpe - RC Hilversum 0 - 19
Soignies - 't Gooi 23 - 28

Pool B
DIOK - Rugby Ottignies Club 37 - 10
Oemoemenoe - Dendermonde 7 - 47

It looks like an all-Dutch final is on the cards.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby NedRugby » Wed, 19 Sep 2018, 22:12

Indeed, the final will be between 't Gooi and Diok. It will take place at 17.00 in Amsterdam on 22 September. I suppose there will be streaming available.
https://www.rugby.nl/page/benecup-2018

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby NedRugby » Wed, 19 Sep 2018, 23:49

A Dutch youngster, Bart Wierenga, is playing on the wing for Bay of Plenty U19 who have just won the national championship. Not sure if Wierenga was playing in the final, but he was playing in the earlier rounds, scoring 4 tries in one match in a 90-0 rout over Hawkes Bay and one in the semi final. Not sure when he moved to NZ, but he was playing for NL U18 in the 2016-17 season.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Raven » Fri, 21 Sep 2018, 12:21

Jesus... I know it´s only 18 yr olds we are talking about, but I really hope Netherlands generates the means to gather all their talent playing abroad!

While we are on it, seeing how Germany has based part of their success with South African decedents, has that idea never crossed anyone's mind in NL? I mean, you definitely have some good youngsters coming up, perhaps a more interesting 1st team could help promote the sport more. I am not saying this would be the only way, but certainly a faster route, as long as the ancestry can be proved, why not? in 15/20 years time it will be too late for it as they will be too far from their lineage.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Tobar » Sat, 22 Sep 2018, 20:53

Raven wrote:Jesus... I know it´s only 18 yr olds we are talking about, but I really hope Netherlands generates the means to gather all their talent playing abroad!

While we are on it, seeing how Germany has based part of their success with South African decedents, has that idea never crossed anyone's mind in NL? I mean, you definitely have some good youngsters coming up, perhaps a more interesting 1st team could help promote the sport more. I am not saying this would be the only way, but certainly a faster route, as long as the ancestry can be proved, why not? in 15/20 years time it will be too late for it as they will be too far from their lineage.


I’m down with that idea. I’m a bit of a purist when it comes to national representation but as long as it’s not overly sneaky and plays within the rules, why not? It’d be good to get some Afrikaners up there who’ve played the sport their whole life and can infuse a sense of professionalism into the team. I’m sure these are the kind of players who’d try and come and play in Europe anyway as there’s no shot of them making it on the Boks.

Also looks like we’ve got a winner for the BeNeCup. This is the kind of competition that I hope to see around for years. Its great how they’ve got a whole cup and banner, really adds something to it.

https://twitter.com/rugbynld/status/104 ... 58632?s=21

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Immenso » Sun, 23 Sep 2018, 21:47

Raven wrote:Jesus... I know it´s only 18 yr olds we are talking about, but I really hope Netherlands generates the means to gather all their talent playing abroad!

While we are on it, seeing how Germany has based part of their success with South African decedents, has that idea never crossed anyone's mind in NL? I mean, you definitely have some good youngsters coming up, perhaps a more interesting 1st team could help promote the sport more. I am not saying this would be the only way, but certainly a faster route, as long as the ancestry can be proved, why not? in 15/20 years time it will be too late for it as they will be too far from their lineage.


Are you talking South Africans of Dutch heritage? Aren't they mostly already 350 years - 60 = 290 years too far from their lineage to qualify for the Netherlands?

While there will of course be some more recent linkages, but not too many judging by Dutch cricket. Just as likely to be Australians and New Zealanders with some Dutch heritage (within 2 generations)

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 25 Sep 2018, 12:19

The Boers emigrated to SA around the time of the 30 years war so more like 1690 than 1960! Since the first world war (longest realistic timescale for any 30 year old now) I don't think Dutch people have particularly favoured SA over any where else? Ever reliable Wikipedia says: " Since the end of World War II, the largest proportion of Dutch emigrants have moved to Anglophone countries, namely Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States, mainly seeking better employment opportunities" & " According to the 2006 census results, over 20,000 inhabitants of New Zealand were Dutch born."

Think guys like Mark van Gisbergen (NZ) or Josh van der Flier (IRE), both of those were "Dutch qualified".

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 05 Oct 2018, 10:11

A team of NZ girls with Dutch ancestry are in the Netherlands this weekend. They are playing some 7s matches against NL U18 and a Swedish U18 team.

https://facebook.com/dutch7sladies/

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Raven » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 12:22

Ok, I stand corrected, if South Africa is far from Dutch heritage, then how about the New Zealenders that could represent the Oranje?

My point being benefiting from players with bigger exposure to te game as youngsters...

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Mon, 08 Oct 2018, 13:51

I am sure they don't want to go down that road.
They prefer to set up sustainable domestic structures to raise levels even if it takes another 8 years to challenge for a World Cup spot.

In that respect I'd like to comment on your remark:
Jesus... I know it´s only 18 yr olds we are talking about, but I really hope Netherlands generates the means to gather all their talent playing abroad!

It's not that they have to gather them, it's actually the opposite: they have been sent there.
Almost all are products of the 6 national academies. To be sent abroad or to be allowed to join the National Training Center they commit themselves to the national teams (U18, U20 or the senior squad).
The problem is that there is hardly anything to come back to.
For that the level of the domestic top clubs has to be improved drastically.
The conception of the BeNeCup is a (small) step on that road.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Raven » Tue, 09 Oct 2018, 12:13

Silver Fox wrote:I am sure they don't want to go down that road.
They prefer to set up sustainable domestic structures to raise levels even if it takes another 8 years to challenge for a World Cup spot.

In that respect I'd like to comment on your remark:
Jesus... I know it´s only 18 yr olds we are talking about, but I really hope Netherlands generates the means to gather all their talent playing abroad!

It's not that they have to gather them, it's actually the opposite: they have been sent there.
Almost all are products of the 6 national academies. To be sent abroad or to be allowed to join the National Training Center they commit themselves to the national teams (U18, U20 or the senior squad).
The problem is that there is hardly anything to come back to.
For that the level of the domestic top clubs has to be improved drastically.
The conception of the BeNeCup is a (small) step on that road.


The chicken and the egg story. I get your perspective, don't get me wrong... it's just too tempting not to think of ways to bring the level of more teams up now, taking Italy in the late 90s, early 2000s, and at a very different step, currently Spain and Germany. Hell, several T1 countries do it too.

Don't want to be negative, I got positively surprised when launched, but after seeing how the first edition went, the BeNeCup looks like a new "North Sea Cup" to me. Hope it does take off, but it seems difficult.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Loohr » Wed, 10 Oct 2018, 21:00

Don't mention before but a dutch international play in Championship this season, new zealander-born Jake Ashby (scrumhalf) sign to Cornish Pirates from Bury St. Edmunds. Already played 3 games as sub.

https://cornish-pirates.com/rugby/kiwi- ... e-pirates/
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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby victorsra » Sat, 13 Oct 2018, 19:10

There is a Dutch player in Brazil playing for Poli: Gianni Croes.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Sun, 14 Oct 2018, 13:45

Raven wrote:Don't want to be negative, I got positively surprised when launched, but after seeing how the first edition went, the BeNeCup looks like a new "North Sea Cup" to me. Hope it does take off, but it seems difficult.

Agree, that's why I called it a small step.
The setup as we have seen last september in itself is nothing.
That's is why I said earlier they need to expand and move to in-season.
 
1) The games we saw earlier apparently must have been no more than appetizers.
In this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dff6Q9lLH8s) Nicolas Meeus, secretary of the Belgian union tells about the background and goal of the BeNeCup.
Apparently the aim is indeed that AFTER the national competitions the top 4 clubs from both countries will compete amongst each other.
However, wether this will be in a round robin competition (with up to 14 matches) or in a knock-out format (with a minimum of 3 rounds) is not clear yet.
It is also unlikely that this will happen already this season. In the current season's Dutch schedule no place for such games has been scheduled yet.
Unlike the Belgian Division 1 the Dutch Ereklasse counts not 8 but 12 clubs. Regular competition in the Netherlands therefor comprises 21 rounds opposed to just 14 in Belgium. So this does not leave room for games to be played for the BeNeCup.
However, there have been voices for a number of years to lower the number of clubs in order to raise the average level of play. Some of the recent results seem to justify this thinking. But what's more, it would give way to schedule the rounds the BeNeCup takes.

1) In my opinion, what is slowing progression down, is if one is trying to develop community based clubs into (semi-)professional set-ups.
I feel hat community and professional rugby require totally different organizations altogether and are difficult to unite, if possible at all. I do not know about the organizational structures of the professional clubs in England or France, but I cannot imagine they haven't separated the professional branch from their community rugby. If they still are linked at all.
The way the MLR is setup should be an example for nations who seek to instate (semi-)professional teams: professional setups play the professional game and provide HP pathways but with strong ties to and even representing the community rugbyclubs in the region.
The problem is however that in countries with established nation-wide competitions the leading clubs (usually also dictating the unions policies) will have to be willing to give up their position of being among the best in the nation.

With respect to the above the Dutch policy 2017-2020: (https://www.rugby.nl/sites/default/file ... 20v1.0.pdf has some interesting points.
On page 14 the Top Sport ambition is summarized:
- A competitive Ereklasse
- Top teams to also play internationally
- NTC/ U20 to play in a competition abroad

Point 1 can be done by condensing the Ereklasse
Point 2 will be solved by the BeNeCup
Point 3 is particularly interesting. In the NTC in Amsterdam young internationals and High Potential academy graduates are concentrated to train together on a daily basis (apart from their club duties). Almost all are part of the U20 national team or are young Dutch senior internationals. The team would effectively be a Dutch franchise with a semi-professional setup.
I can only speculate what comp they see as potentially taking them onboard. The Continental Shield is the first (and only) one that springs to my mind.

If they go about it sensibly it could be the starting point of a (semi-)professional layer on top of the Dutch club structures.
Let's not get our expectations too high up however, let's follow this a step at a time.
First let's see what structures the national comps and the BeNeCup take on (in 2020).
Then let's see if the Dutch can do something similar as the Belgians with their Belgian Barbarians XV.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Silver Fox » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 12:22

I always liked the weekly summaries Armchair Fan comes up with every week.
I find them very informative. :thumbup:

I felt like doing the same for Dutch rugby.
I'm sorry I don't have inside information to go with it, I'm just copying and pasting things I find on the web.
Don't expect updates every week, I intend to do this whenever I find the time.
Code: Select all
Speelronde 5, 13-10-2018

The Bassets - 't Gooi             0 - 62
Amstelveen  - Ascrum           29 - 29
Waterland    - Haagsche RC   11 - 37
DIOK           - Castricum       41 - 27
Hilversum     - DSR-C            98 - 19
The Dukes    - Oemoemenoe  31 - 12

Image
It's the 6 best from recent history that are emerging at the top. Only traditional powerhouse HRC is having somewhat of a false start as they were also struggling last seasons.
Both BeNeCup finalists 't Gooi and DIOK are still with a 100% score.
Promovendus Amstelveen is having an encouraging start.
Last edited by Silver Fox on Mon, 12 Nov 2018, 23:27, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 15 Oct 2018, 12:32

More than welcome, thank you.

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby A_FlyingMegaKiwi » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 05:29

Are the Dutch union looking into trying to ensure young Stan van den Hoven isn’t lost to New Zealand rugby?

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Re: Rugby in the Netherlands

Postby dropkick » Sat, 20 Oct 2018, 19:50

sk 88 wrote:The Boers emigrated to SA around the time of the 30 years war so more like 1690 than 1960! Since the first world war (longest realistic timescale for any 30 year old now) I don't think Dutch people have particularly favoured SA over any where else? Ever reliable Wikipedia says: " Since the end of World War II, the largest proportion of Dutch emigrants have moved to Anglophone countries, namely Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States, mainly seeking better employment opportunities" & " According to the 2006 census results, over 20,000 inhabitants of New Zealand were Dutch born."

Think guys like Mark van Gisbergen (NZ) or Josh van der Flier (IRE), both of those were "Dutch qualified".



Oliver Jager is in the Crusaders squad. Dutch father.

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