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RWC 2019 Qualifying

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 07:02

fridge46 wrote:Just 3?!?! Thats disappointing :/ but im sure those missing have good reasons


Thank god World Rugby was really wise and gave those three teams an extra qualification chance, while over 40 European teams miss out even on this and were stolen one qualification spot after Georgia qualified directly.

Why not, most of those nations missing out have their own cultures and languages and don't have English as their official language and weren't part of the Commonwealth. Sick of this open racism towards Commonwealth outsiders, protectionism for former British empire members in World Rugby (Yes I know the fig leaf Tahiti was a French colony) AND actually having a cast system which also discriminates those Oceania cup nations by not letting them play at all against the highest cast in their region.

1,5 years (?) after this qualification-structure-bullshit came out and I'm still angry how injust it is.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 07:39

Open racism is a bit extreme.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 08:41

thatrugbyguy wrote:Open racism is a bit extreme.


True, I apologize for this. But I haven't seen a proper reason how some decisions are made in World Rugby if not because of racism against Commonwealth outsiders or nations from a different rugby cast, which they do define.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Neptune » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 08:52

RugbyLiebe wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Open racism is a bit extreme.


True, I apologize for this. But I haven't seen a proper reason how some decisions are made in World Rugby if not because of racism against Commonwealth outsiders or nations from a different rugby cast, which they do define.


Life is unfair :(

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 09:31

Neptune wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Open racism is a bit extreme.


True, I apologize for this. But I haven't seen a proper reason how some decisions are made in World Rugby if not because of racism against Commonwealth outsiders or nations from a different rugby cast, which they do define.


Life is unfair :(


It is. But it is up to you to sit back and accept it or if you do something about itAnd if it is just a rant online or more important small steps in your club, union, etc. This system won't be there in 20,30 years. Nothing was ever achieved by accepting an unfair system 8-)

But we are going to much off topic here.
Do the Cookies have a stadium to host it or is it more or less a simple pitch with no stands?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 11:27

RugbyLiebe wrote:True, I apologize for this. But I haven't seen a proper reason how some decisions are made in World Rugby if not because of racism against Commonwealth outsiders or nations from a different rugby cast, which they do define.


I think the problem is there's a balancing act they are trying to do, one one hand they do genuinely want to push into new markets, on the other hand they don't want to risk upsetting the status quo as it may lead to some established nations falling away.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Neptune » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 11:36

thatrugbyguy wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:True, I apologize for this. But I haven't seen a proper reason how some decisions are made in World Rugby if not because of racism against Commonwealth outsiders or nations from a different rugby cast, which they do define.


I think the problem is there's a balancing act they are trying to do, one one hand they do genuinely want to push into new markets, on the other hand they don't want to risk upsetting the status quo as it may lead to some established nations falling away.


Hmmm, :? I don't understand, how does increasing teams from the usual 20 to 24 de stabilise other unions? I thought it will be beneficial to all 24? Unless of course you are implying that the rugby cake will be split 24 way instead of 20 way.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 12:01

I'm suggesting WR doesn't want to go the way of FIFA and have the likes of Scotland and Wales drowned out by bigger nations, although in Welsh soccers case they've turned that around in recent years. It's all about fear. If the likes of Spain, Russia and Germany suddenly become T1 or near T1 nations and the they start tripling their support and attendance who loses out? Ireland, Scotland and Wales. England and France will always survive but those other 3 nations would suddenly find themselves in a world of bother struggling to compete with bigger nations, not just in Europe but globally in Asia, North and South America. That's why their approach is slow, they're trying to ensure they develop new rugby nations but not at the expense of existing ones. To me that's an unsustainable approach.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 13:08

thatrugbyguy wrote:I'm suggesting WR doesn't want to go the way of FIFA and have the likes of Scotland and Wales drowned out by bigger nations, although in Welsh soccers case they've turned that around in recent years. It's all about fear. If the likes of Spain, Russia and Germany suddenly become T1 or near T1 nations and the they start tripling their support and attendance who loses out? Ireland, Scotland and Wales. England and France will always survive but those other 3 nations would suddenly find themselves in a world of bother struggling to compete with bigger nations, not just in Europe but globally in Asia, North and South America. That's why their approach is slow, they're trying to ensure they develop new rugby nations but not at the expense of existing ones. To me that's an unsustainable approach.
:thumbup: They want the benefits of the globalization of the sport but to keep control of it.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 13:29

Bogdan_DC wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:I'm suggesting WR doesn't want to go the way of FIFA and have the likes of Scotland and Wales drowned out by bigger nations, although in Welsh soccers case they've turned that around in recent years. It's all about fear. If the likes of Spain, Russia and Germany suddenly become T1 or near T1 nations and the they start tripling their support and attendance who loses out? Ireland, Scotland and Wales. England and France will always survive but those other 3 nations would suddenly find themselves in a world of bother struggling to compete with bigger nations, not just in Europe but globally in Asia, North and South America. That's why their approach is slow, they're trying to ensure they develop new rugby nations but not at the expense of existing ones. To me that's an unsustainable approach.
:thumbup: They want the benefits of the globalization of the sport but to keep control of it.


This is spot on.
I fear World Rugby might miss a big opportunity. The end of the TV-channel-era and the start of the stream-era would have been perfect to go for 24 teams i.e. This could have been the last chance to promote a sport via tv, before everybody will just watch what he/she knows.

But they made two mistakes in one move. Stay at 20 AND overprotecting the "exotic" Commonwealth countries from Oceania. While I enjoy seeing the exotic flavour Tonga and Samoa bring up, they are New Zealand B and C with half their squads being Kiwis who weren't good enough for the All Blacks. And they will probably add nothing else anymore (really cold-hearted analysis, but even if we don't like it deep down we all know, that this is the case). Don't get me wrong going for 24 and protecting the Islanders would have been a reasonable move, both together is a catastrophy.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 14:51

It is clear a struggle to not loose power. You are right: money from globalization, yes, more democracy in key decisions, no.

I don't see a problem with Fiji, Samoa or Tonga in the RWC if they are among the 20-24 best teams. I don't like the continental split of the spots. I won't the top 20-24 no matter where they come from, no matter their population or economy. Africa will be there with South Africa anyway. South America will be there with Argentina and North America won't miss it. Asia with Japan. But I want equal chances of qualification for everybody too (the only reasonable "privilege" is giving higher ranked teams less matches, because we know you can't put the All Blacks against Peru, South Africa against Bulgaria or France against Barbados, otherwise there will be a slaughter). But also I don't want to see poor countries left out because they can't avoid competing (in fact, that's part of FIFA's key).

Taking RL's signature as inspiration and dreaming a bit (as I love to do it), why not a global knock-out Qualy?

Using the ranking the day after RWC's final and assuming a RWC with 24 teams:

Round 1 - Nov 2019 - 73-84 vs 85-96 - at the 73-84 countries
Round 2 - Jul 2020 - 61-72 vs Winners Round 1 - at the 61-72
Round 3 - Nov 2020 - 49-60 vs Winners Round 2 - at the 49-60
Round 4 - Jul 2021 - 37-48 vs Winners Round 3 - at the 37-48
Round 5 - Nov 2021 - 25-36 vs Winners Round 4 - at the 25-36
Golden Round - 2020 and/or 2021 (2 legs) - 1-12 vs 12-24 - Winners at the RWC
Final Round 1st leg - Jul 2022 - Losers Golden Round vs Winners Round 5 - at Southern Hemiphere countries or lower ranked teams
Final Round 2nd leg - Nov 2022 - Losers Golden Round vs Winners Round 5 - at the Northern countries or best ranked teams - Winners at the RWC

Only possible for low ranked teams if WR pays the travels, of course.
Last edited by victorsra on Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 14:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 14:52

Yes, it is true they want the benefits of a truly global international scene whilst retaining control over it. That is ultimately going to be an unsustainable model if and when you have nations like the US, Japan, Germany, etc starting to become genuinely competitive, because once that happens they'll have little choice but to start relinquishing power, otherwise they risk revolt from the very nations they are developing.

However, I will say in their defence I do feel they are genuinely concentrated on getting the world cup to be genuinely competitive before they expand. 2015 was the most competitive world cup since 1991, and most importantly the T2 and even T3 nations stopped looking out of place in the tournament. I remember watching England v Uruguay back in 2003 where the English put 100+ point on Uruguay. It really did look like Pros vs Amateurs. Fast forward 12 years and Uruguay halve the score and look just as confident and professional as the English. There's no doubt they are looking at places like Spain, Germany, Brazil, etc and seeing the improvements being made in those nations. Make no mistake they do want those teams at the world cup. It's just a matter of timing. The important thing is that change is happening, these nations are now getting regular June and November fixtures and are part of regional competitions. Where as once they may have only gotten 4 or 5 tests a year it's now approaching double figures for some of these teams which is almost inline with the amount of tests a T1 nation gets yearly. 2023 is still not entirely out of the equation I feel, a lot will hinge on performances in Japan in 2019.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Neptune » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 14:54

thatrugbyguy wrote:I'm suggesting WR doesn't want to go the way of FIFA and have the likes of Scotland and Wales drowned out by bigger nations, although in Welsh soccers case they've turned that around in recent years. It's all about fear. If the likes of Spain, Russia and Germany suddenly become T1 or near T1 nations and the they start tripling their support and attendance who loses out? Ireland, Scotland and Wales. England and France will always survive but those other 3 nations would suddenly find themselves in a world of bother struggling to compete with bigger nations, not just in Europe but globally in Asia, North and South America. That's why their approach is slow, they're trying to ensure they develop new rugby nations but not at the expense of existing ones. To me that's an unsustainable approach.


Makes some sense, In a nutshell, WR wants to have it's cake and eat it.
Question is, for how long can they keep this up, and the level of competition between countries is becoming stiffer and stiffer by the day.
The main reason the auto 12 qualifier system was introduced, was due to the weak level of Scotland, who were unable to easily make it past the quarters stage.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 15:22

The 12 qualifiers was introduced more to make the 5 team format at the world cup have more value than to protect T1 nations. In 2003 only the quarterfinalists qualified automatically for the next World Cup, but organisers discovered early on there was actually very little for most teams to play for with that format, making a large percentage of the pool matches meaningless. It's was bumped up to 12 in 2007 to give everyone a chance to play for something.

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 10:54

antlat wrote:Yes, this a worrying trend in Oceania.

I hope they are not all just concentrating on Rugby 7s.

I wonder if there is a criteria in World Rugby membership that a national union must be active in both 15s and 7s??? I hope so???

Yes, for minor Oceania nations like eastern Samoa, Vanuatu, Niue and Solomon the Oceania Cup incorporated in the RWC qualifications should be a four-years peak. If they renounce at it, they could remain inactive (in rugby XV) for other three years

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Fri, 21 Apr 2017, 08:56

I don't know if this was already known

Japan will not take part in 2018 @asiarugby c'ship as it is #RWC2019 qualifier. Winners of Div 1 will join @HongKongRugby & @KoreaRugbyUnion

So this year ARC Top3 is not affecting in any way the qualifying

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Re: RWC 2019 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Sat, 22 Apr 2017, 22:52

If I'm not wrong five nations have been drop out from the RWC qualification today

Israel (REC I S)
Finland (REC II N)
Norway (REC II N)
Slovenia (REC II S)
Serbia (REC II S)

See european rankings at http://www.rugbyeurope.eu/competitions/ ... mpionships

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