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Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby iul » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 19:22

Why should the Lions be guaranteed to get the cream of the crop? The home nations could pick their best players for the euro and send a Lions selection formed of the rest of the players, the ones that didn't get picked for their nationals teams

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby iul » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 19:24

carbonero wrote:The international calendar is set until 2032. Revenue sharing was off the table so the schedule is still based around reciprocity of test matches. The 6N countries can’t just cancel their June window. Hence, the most likely scenario is REC + “A” sides.

It would be garbage. We've tried the whole A team thingy in the form of the Churchill Cup, WR Cup, etc.. they all failed. Nobody gives a shit about some non official matches against some nation's 2nd team. Maybe they do against the Maori ABs but that's because of the strength of their brand.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 19:29

iul wrote:
carbonero wrote:The international calendar is set until 2032. Revenue sharing was off the table so the schedule is still based around reciprocity of test matches. The 6N countries can’t just cancel their June window. Hence, the most likely scenario is REC + “A” sides.

It would be garbage. We've tried the whole A team thingy in the form of the Churchill Cup, WR Cup, etc.. they all failed. Nobody gives a shit about some non official matches against some nation's 2nd team. Maybe they do against the Maori ABs but that's because of the strength of their brand.


Yup it'd be awful. No one would care about A teams. I could see WR altering the Calendar so that both hemispheres had continental championships in the July window of lions years though. They certainly have the power. To be honest I suspect that the new championships would bring in more money than the tours in Lions years which no-one cares about anyway.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 19:56

sk 88 wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Was Bilbao btw seen as a success?

No, it wasn't. Local politics sold they were going to host 100,000 rich European fans spending thousands of euros and the image of a San Mamés half-empty stadium for Challenge Cup, plus quite a few fans from all around Spain, plus accommodation meltdown didn't meet expectations. Regarding economics I believe FER is only receiving 75,000€. And media-wise it was quite meh.

Regarding the other comments, I'd rather see us sorting our shit together before launching a new bid for an international event.


Fuck me mate, you'd be down about getting a blow job from Jennifer Lawrence because she didn't let you spunk on her tits.

It was like the second highest Challenge Cup final attendance ever, get on the bandwagon! It was great let's see more of it. Edinburgh's accommodation market melted down when they hosted it in 2009, shit happens!

Yeah, I get it, RugbyLiebe already told me not to bullshit, but he asked me about how was it seen, and the truth is local media didn't see it that great. We already dealt with it. 32,000 for Challenge Cup final was great. A sellout for Champions Cup final was great. But impression left by the full event among locals wasn't that successful. There was even shit thrown between politicians as Vitoria, who will host Euroleague's Basketball Final Four, explicitly said they will try not to repeat Bilbao's rugby finals mistakes...

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:07

Would be much better in August and September,


Players rest period/start of clubs season. You'll need to clash with Players Association due to Welfare issues or with top clubs that once more are the ones paying salaries. Out of the table, even more now that the season will be 11 months long.

Why should the Lions be guaranteed to get the cream of the crop? The home nations could pick their best players for the euro and send a Lions selection formed of the rest of the players, the ones that didn't get picked for their nationals teams


Is this a serious question?

If they don't pick their best there is no reason to have the Lions. No sponsor would be interesting. Fans woudn't travel. SH nations obviously woudn't accept.

If it is true people don't care that much about the Lions and the French don't care about going to the SH (two ideas I simply can't believe to be true), the question is simple: an Euro Championship will only happen if it offers money enough for the Home Nations to cancel the Lions Tour. Therefore, making it interesting for France too.

And remember: you need to convince everybody that makes sense that matches that are already part of the 6N should be played twice that year at the expense of the Lions.

So, good luck trying to prove the Home Nations they should kill the Lions to play Georgia.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby carbonero » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:29

iul wrote:It would be garbage. We've tried the whole A team thingy in the form of the Churchill Cup, WR Cup, etc.. they all failed. Nobody gives a shit about some non official matches against some nation's 2nd team. Maybe they do against the Maori ABs but that's because of the strength of their brand.

I know that playing “A” sides is garbage. I’m not advocating for it.

The thing is that the calendar is set in stone. The clubs won’t release the players outside of the 6N, July and November. And the 6N countries have an agreed to tour in July so they can receive tests in November. There isn’t any way around it.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:46

victorsra wrote:
Would be much better in August and September,


Players rest period/start of clubs season. You'll need to clash with Players Association due to Welfare issues or with top clubs that once more are the ones paying salaries. Out of the table, even more now that the season will be 11 months long.

Why should the Lions be guaranteed to get the cream of the crop? The home nations could pick their best players for the euro and send a Lions selection formed of the rest of the players, the ones that didn't get picked for their nationals teams


Is this a serious question?

If they don't pick their best there is no reason to have the Lions. No sponsor would be interesting. Fans woudn't travel. SH nations obviously woudn't accept.

If it is true people don't care that much about the Lions and the French don't care about going to the SH (two ideas I simply can't believe to be true), the question is simple: an Euro Championship will only happen if it offers money enough for the Home Nations to cancel the Lions Tour. Therefore, making it interesting for France too.

And remember: you need to convince everybody that makes sense that matches that are already part of the 6N should be played twice that year at the expense of the Lions.

So, good luck trying to prove the Home Nations they should kill the Lions to play Georgia.


Lions should obviously have first pick of players.

There's no reason why the two can't be played side-by-side for a few years. France fans would definitely prefer not touring the SH and hosting a tournament than touring the SH, so let them host the first one and see how it goes. It's not like France doesn't already tour the SH 2/3 times a cycle. At the very worst it's a great development tournament that costs almost nothing.

Also a first choice France wouldn't necessarily roll through England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland minus their Lions players. The lions tour generates a massive £1.25m for each home nation. The TV deal for the UK alone would be more than £5m (The 6N tv deal is worth more than £3.5m per game). The biggest impediment to this happening is the SH, and that can be overcome very easily. To put the Lions tour into context the total profit from it is £25m between the 5 nations involved, or equivalent to the UK TV deal for half of one year's 6N.

Last year England toured Arg, and ticket sales were poor, same with the Wallabies tests last year. The only real loss would have been France v SA. Make a guarantee that £15m will be handed out to the three teams not hosting the Lions and all objections will quickly disappear, even moreso if they then go on to host a SH championship, which they can use to raise awareness and funds.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 21:52

carbonero wrote:
iul wrote:It would be garbage. We've tried the whole A team thingy in the form of the Churchill Cup, WR Cup, etc.. they all failed. Nobody gives a shit about some non official matches against some nation's 2nd team. Maybe they do against the Maori ABs but that's because of the strength of their brand.

I know that playing “A” sides is garbage. I’m not advocating for it.

The thing is that the calendar is set in stone. The clubs won’t release the players outside of the 6N, July and November. And the 6N countries have an agreed to tour in July so they can receive tests in November. There isn’t any way around it.


The SH teams can be easily persuaded. Take last year for example, Argentina only sold about 50,000 tickets total for the two England games, Australia sold 30,000 v Scotland, and another 22,000 v Italy. Argentina would probably be for a scrapping of tours in Lions years, for then they'd get a 3 test series of a full strength England side every 6 odd years. The only real loss would have been France v SA, it really wouldn't take much in 'solidarity payments' (bribes) to convince the SH that one summer of the NH not touring wouldn't hurt them, plus they'd be able to host the SH championship. Say £15m between the two nations not hosting the Lions or the Championship.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby carbonero » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 22:12

£15m is not enough. There is a contract in place that you intend to break. The South has all the leverage here. Can you imagine negociating this with the NZRU? Also, you agreed to tour Japan, USA, Canada and the PI’s in a span of 12 years. They also need to be compensated.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 22:17

France would be the easiest nation to convince. Not only they are closer to Rugby Europe and owe Georgia and Romania their votes, but it often sends understrength sides to June tours and its own fans see them as less important than November window. Clubs would rather see their players stay in Europe against minnows than take a spanking in New Zealand.

Anyway let me say that the French article says especifically that new calendar opens the door to that tournament. What are they refering to? No fucking clue.

But I agree with down to Earth views over here, it isn't that easy. And Rugby Europe isn't currently in a state where one is allowed to be optimistic when sat at a negotiation table.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 22:22

France fans would definitely prefer not touring the SH and hosting a tournament than touring the SH, so let them host the first one and see how it goes. It's not like France doesn't already tour the SH 2/3 times a cycle. At the very worst it's a great development tournament that costs almost nothing.


It is really hard for me to believe on this. We are in a T2/3-fans bubble here.

But these are the crucial point: what France thinks about giving up from SH to play Home Nations "almost A teams". And how much UK cares about the Lions.

Last year England toured Arg, and ticket sales were poor, same with the Wallabies tests last year. The only real loss would have been France v SA. Make a guarantee that £15m will be handed out to the three teams not hosting the Lions and all objections will quickly disappear, even moreso if they then go on to host a SH championship, which they can use to raise awareness and funds.


SH competition is called The Rugby Championship :lol:

I understand what you mean. Put the PIs, Japan, Canada, USA, a couple of South Americans, Africans and maybe others Asians and that's it, right? A "Super Cup". Hosting it in North America or Japan to make money? Let's say 12 teams: NZ, AUS, SA, ARG, FIJ, SAM, TON, JAP, USA, CAN, URU, NAM? 16 with BRA, KEN, HKG, CHL/KOR?

Well, this means that the 4Ns (or 3 of them) would need to give up from the Lions and of home matches that year (apart from TRC matches) + local TVs that might not have July matches at the time their are used to (some in really bad times, because "SH" is not an unity and has bizarre time differences as it is a small World Cup). So, you need someone with a bag of money wanting this (if we were talking about soccer I would believe... Arab, Russian, Chinese billionaires and etc.... but in rugby.... ). I think it probably wold happen but just AFTER Europe decides that the Euro Champ is viable. Again, it is all about UK wanting the Lions or not.

And I am still skeptical about UK killing their Lions. Mostly because we are in a forum that is a bubble of people that want to prove by all means that T1s should be open to T2s no matter what. But what about outside our bubble?
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 22:27

I don't see Lions dying. At least not because of this, if it happens it will because of pressure by Premiership clubs.

It's either happening with Wolfhounds, Saxons and Barbarians during Lions (it makes sense, Lions play in the morning, Euroshittyteamschallenge in the afternoon and night) or the following year.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 23:11

Armchair Fan wrote:I don't see Lions dying. At least not because of this, if it happens it will because of pressure by Premiership clubs.

It's either happening with Wolfhounds, Saxons and Barbarians during Lions (it makes sense, Lions play in the morning, Euroshittyteamschallenge in the afternoon and night) or the following year.


If it goes ahead it won't be with the stupid A team names, that's just a waste of everyones' time.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 13 Jul 2018, 23:21

carbonero wrote:£15m is not enough. There is a contract in place that you intend to break. The South has all the leverage here. Can you imagine negociating this with the NZRU? Also, you agreed to tour Japan, USA, Canada and the PI’s in a span of 12 years. They also need to be compensated.


The south has the leverage up to 2032. However after that it's all with the NH. Agreeing to bin the SH tours in Lions years would be a much more preferable solution to the issue for the SH than the NH deciding to bin the lions all together for the Euros, which would be disastrous for the south. Plus after the SH got it all their way in the Global Calendar, they owe the north somewhat.

Armchair Fan wrote:France would be the easiest nation to convince. Not only they are closer to Rugby Europe and owe Georgia and Romania their votes, but it often sends understrength sides to June tours and its own fans see them as less important than November window. Clubs would rather see their players stay in Europe against minnows than take a spanking in New Zealand.

Anyway let me say that the French article says especifically that new calendar opens the door to that tournament. What are they refering to? No fucking clue.

But I agree with down to Earth views over here, it isn't that easy. And Rugby Europe isn't currently in a state where one is allowed to be optimistic when sat at a negotiation table.


What they're referring to I suspect is that in the GC T2 nations are entitled to a certain amount of T1 matches based on their ranking, so the Euros could be one way of getting them done. Also RE are being consulted purely as a formality, WR wouldn't trust them to run a piss up in a brewery atm.

victorsra wrote:
France fans would definitely prefer not touring the SH and hosting a tournament than touring the SH, so let them host the first one and see how it goes. It's not like France doesn't already tour the SH 2/3 times a cycle. At the very worst it's a great development tournament that costs almost nothing.


It is really hard for me to believe on this. We are in a T2/3-fans bubble here.

But these are the crucial point: what France thinks about giving up from SH to play Home Nations "almost A teams". And how much UK cares about the Lions.

Last year England toured Arg, and ticket sales were poor, same with the Wallabies tests last year. The only real loss would have been France v SA. Make a guarantee that £15m will be handed out to the three teams not hosting the Lions and all objections will quickly disappear, even moreso if they then go on to host a SH championship, which they can use to raise awareness and funds.


SH competition is called The Rugby Championship :lol:

I understand what you mean. Put the PIs, Japan, Canada, USA, a couple of South Americans, Africans and maybe others Asians and that's it, right? A "Super Cup". Hosting it in North America or Japan to make money? Let's say 12 teams: NZ, AUS, SA, ARG, FIJ, SAM, TON, JAP, USA, CAN, URU, NAM? 16 with BRA, KEN, HKG, CHL/KOR?

Well, this means that the 4Ns (or 3 of them) would need to give up from the Lions and of home matches that year (apart from TRC matches) + local TVs that might not have July matches at the time their are used to (some in really bad times, because "SH" is not an unity and has bizarre time differences as it is a small World Cup). So, you need someone with a bag of money wanting this (if we were talking about soccer I would believe... Arab, Russian, Chinese billionaires and etc.... but in rugby.... ). I think it probably wold happen but just AFTER Europe decides that the Euro Champ is viable. Again, it is all about UK wanting the Lions or not.

And I am still skeptical about UK killing their Lions. Mostly because we are in a forum that is a bubble of people that want to prove by all means that T1s should be open to T2s no matter what. But what about outside our bubble?


The FRU and LNR at least would much prefer to have their players stay home and possibly host the tournament (less travel, lower intensity, more money). For a SH championship try this: https://i.imgur.com/aSgtlMm.png (SA not involved because they're hosting the lions). It would fit into the 3 and a bit week period that the June/July tours are normally in. So it'd be in the same period of the year, the TRC wouldn't be cancelled and would go on as normal. In 2017 June the T1 NH v T1 SH internationals were: France tour of SA (3 matches), Argentina v England (2), Aus v Italy (1), Aus v Scotland (1). That's nowhere near the full slate of summer internationals, hence it would be relatively easy to end. In 2013: France v NZ (3), Eng v Arg (2), SA v Italy (1), SA v Scotland (1).


The SH championship of course would only be something that happens after the Euros one is decided, I agree. It is possible to have both the Lions and the Euros, at least for a few editions.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 09:23

Armchair Fan wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Was Bilbao btw seen as a success?

No, it wasn't. Local politics sold they were going to host 100,000 rich European fans spending thousands of euros and the image of a San Mamés half-empty stadium for Challenge Cup, plus quite a few fans from all around Spain, plus accommodation meltdown didn't meet expectations. Regarding economics I believe FER is only receiving 75,000€. And media-wise it was quite meh.

Regarding the other comments, I'd rather see us sorting our shit together before launching a new bid for an international event.


Fuck me mate, you'd be down about getting a blow job from Jennifer Lawrence because she didn't let you spunk on her tits.

It was like the second highest Challenge Cup final attendance ever, get on the bandwagon! It was great let's see more of it. Edinburgh's accommodation market melted down when they hosted it in 2009, shit happens!

Yeah, I get it, RugbyLiebe already told me not to bullshit, but he asked me about how was it seen, and the truth is local media didn't see it that great. We already dealt with it. 32,000 for Challenge Cup final was great. A sellout for Champions Cup final was great. But impression left by the full event among locals wasn't that successful. There was even shit thrown between politicians as Vitoria, who will host Euroleague's Basketball Final Four, explicitly said they will try not to repeat Bilbao's rugby finals mistakes...


:oops: Sorry Armchair, the simile came to me and I couldn't stop myself from posting it :lol:

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 09:29

victorsra wrote:
Would be much better in August and September,


Players rest period/start of clubs season. You'll need to clash with Players Association due to Welfare issues or with top clubs that once more are the ones paying salaries. Out of the table, even more now that the season will be 11 months long.



Well the current World Cup is in September, Ocotber and a week of Nov. Moving it to August and September would reduce clashing. There are no summer tours before RWCs so the players would rest in June and July. It could easily be done and would be better for the clubs.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 09:40

Just on the Lions, no one is saying they will be binned off just yet.

The point is that they aren't SO successful that we should close off that summer for any other events. We could very easily run a Euros in the same summer. The national teams all tour during that summer anyway, it would be the same as what we get currently.

You'd then see how it goes. Either it would slot in as a secondary tournament for the four home nations, or it would overtake the Lions. I could see either as realistic options but after 2 or 3 iterations I think a Euros would be considered more important but maybe not.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Blurandski » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 09:52

sk 88 wrote:Just on the Lions, no one is saying they will be binned off just yet.

The point is that they aren't SO successful that we should close off that summer for any other events. We could very easily run a Euros in the same summer. The national teams all tour during that summer anyway, it would be the same as what we get currently.

You'd then see how it goes. Either it would slot in as a secondary tournament for the four home nations, or it would overtake the Lions. I could see either as realistic options but after 2 or 3 iterations I think a Euros would be considered more important but maybe not.


I could definitely see it overtaking the Lions, should the T2s be competitive. People will love to see England/Ireland/Wales playing new teams, there's a reason why the Welsh find Japan matches a very easy sell, but Argentina matches not so.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 12:56

sk 88 wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Would be much better in August and September,


Players rest period/start of clubs season. You'll need to clash with Players Association due to Welfare issues or with top clubs that once more are the ones paying salaries. Out of the table, even more now that the season will be 11 months long.



Well the current World Cup is in September, Ocotber and a week of Nov. Moving it to August and September would reduce clashing. There are no summer tours before RWCs so the players would rest in June and July. It could easily be done and would be better for the clubs.

Sorry dude. The RWC cant be in August as from 2020 to 2032 it will be players holidays month in NH as club season will run from September to June. There wont be July tests in RWC years and July will be the holidays month. They need some warm up. And club season wont change.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 13:27

Yeah, right.

We'll see how long all this playing in June lasts. I can see a snap back to the traditional calendar pretty quickly.

There is no Christmas day in rugby. Nothing is fixed and anything can shift about.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 14:36

We'll see how long all this playing in June lasts. I can see a snap back to the traditional calendar pretty quickly.


Yes, 11 months is bizarre.
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby Thomas » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 14:49

victorsra wrote:
We'll see how long all this playing in June lasts. I can see a snap back to the traditional calendar pretty quickly.


Yes, 11 months is bizarre.


A lot of coaches are against it, because of the lack of PROPER recovery, is as bad as tennis. no recovery, no proper Off-season and initial periodization. I am waiting to see if it's going to go ahead at all. Money talks if the big clubs are not happy World Rugby will acquiesce and back to a traditional calendar on Sports Medicine grounds.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby victorsra » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 14:51

A crazy improbable idea:

What if an Euro Championship is a Warm-up for the Lions instead of their matches against Super Rugby teams?

Lions will become a 5-weekends affair, but going back to the 6 weekends model, a Euro Championship could last 3 weekends (max 4 rounds) and the Lions play the last 3 weekends in the SH.

Exemple of a 6 weekends model using the Lions concept of weekend + midweek matches:

Euro Champ - 8 teams = Lions, France, Italy + 5. 3 group matches + Final/3rd place...

Group A: Lions, Georgia, Romania, Germany / Group B: France, Italy, Russia, Spain

Saturday 1 - Lions vs Romania / Georgia vs Germany
Sunday 1 - France vs Russia / Italy vs Spain

Thursday 1 - Lions vs Germany / Georgia vs Romania
Friday 1 - France vs Spain / Italy vs Russia

Saturday/Sunday 2 - empty (good time for U20s finals or World Sevens Series finals!)

Tuesday 2 - Lions vs Georgia / Romania vs Germany
Wednesday 2 - France vs Italy / Russia vs Spain

Sunday 3 - Euro Finals - let's say: Lions vs France / Italy vs Georgia / Romania vs Russia / Spain vs Germany

Sunday 4 - Lions vs Springboks

Saturday 5 - Lions vs Springboks

Saturday 6 - Lions vs Springboks

But according to the last Lions Tour schedule it would be impossible any rest weekend between the end of the Premiership and the kick off of such Euro tournament. And Top 14 must end together with the Premiership...
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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 14 Jul 2018, 17:16

Armchair Fan wrote:I don't see Lions dying. At least not because of this, if it happens it will because of pressure by Premiership clubs.

It's either happening with Wolfhounds, Saxons and Barbarians during Lions (it makes sense, Lions play in the morning, Euroshittyteamschallenge in the afternoon and night) or the following year.


I don't see the Lions dying, but I can see it becoming something different. We're already seeing changes to the schedule in 2021 where they are only playing 8 tour games instead of 10. It's basically all going to come down to money. Would a Euro Cup generate more income than a Lions tour for the UK and Ireland? TV times would be far more favourable, and travel for fans and players wouldn't be nearly as difficult.

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Re: Are the stars aligning for a 6N expansion?

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 15 Jul 2018, 12:03

Just on possible formats, looking at the under 20’s tournament, as awkward as it is, is probably the best format to use initially. If the competition is 10 teams it runs into the same issue as the RWC scheduling, 8 is a glorified 6 nations, and there just isn’t enough teams to justify 16. The under 20’s format would have to be tweaked slightly though as that format has all the pool games happening on the same day, but it still means teams would play a minimum of 4 matches across 3 and a half weeks, meaning at least two games for REC/RET teams against 6N opposition.

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