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Rugby in Oceania

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby victorsra » Thu, 25 Mar 2021, 15:15

Raven wrote:I certainly hope this helps the PI's to retain their talent locally and that having 2 Super Rugby teams enables them to get stronger / more consistent at the International stage. Clearly World Rugby had to do something, I'm not sure if an "investment" in a League was the way to go, or if this is the stepping stone for more emerging nation club funding? i.e, will they fund a Mexican team enter the MLR? will they support T2 and 3 European sides to join the Champions / Challenge Cup? what about the Jaguares who were left with no T1 competition? will they advocate for them to re-enter Super Rugby or another professional league of some form? They had originally shown interest and intended to support the SLAR, but now AFAIK given the political scenario things have changed... African nations (North and South, bar South Africa) would also benefit from having professional opportunities.

Apologies if I'm looking for dirt where there may not be any, but it seems more of a political manoeuvre than a genuine interest in aiding the issues PI's had. Eligibility is still a big obstacle, there are still a lot of obstacles for everybody to compete in same the conditions.



I it indeed political and marketing (as the poaching idea is always around damaging the image of the game, no matter how fair it is).

What I think WR can do is to provide path for minor nations in all continents, but according to their own models. Oceania uses the Super Rugby franchise approach, so it makes sense. South America needed the franchise approach because Argentina will keep forbidding professionalism among their clubs.

In East Asia, the best path IMO is to work with the Japanese RFU to have teams from other Asian countries in their system. In Africa, Currie Cup is the way. So, it will taste that WR is fair if, for exemple, we see them supporting a Kenyan team in the Currie Cup or a Korean team in the Japanese league or the Mexican MLR franchise.

As for Europe, the continent is the most complicated one. What is the model? Clubs or franchises? A proper new league or simply another competition that provides access for clubs to the Challenge Cup? Oceania was definitly easier to find a way.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby geuvanio22 » Thu, 25 Mar 2021, 16:49

victorsra wrote:I it indeed political and marketing (as the poaching idea is always around damaging the image of the game, no matter how fair it is).

What I think WR can do is to provide path for minor nations in all continents, but according to their own models. Oceania uses the Super Rugby franchise approach, so it makes sense. South America needed the franchise approach because Argentina will keep forbidding professionalism among their clubs.

In East Asia, the best path IMO is to work with the Japanese RFU to have teams from other Asian countries in their system. In Africa, Currie Cup is the way. So, it will taste that WR is fair if, for exemple, we see them supporting a Kenyan team in the Currie Cup or a Korean team in the Japanese league or the Mexican MLR franchise.

As for Europe, the continent is the most complicated one. What is the model? Clubs or franchises? A proper new league or simply another competition that provides access for clubs to the Challenge Cup? Oceania was definitly easier to find a way.


You're absolutely right, each region should follow its own development path. But now that WR is investing in the development of three World Cup regulars, where will they aim next? Another nation that is always competing but not getting any good results? USA & Canada are on their own MLR path, which seems quite consolidated and promising, Uruguay might have a longer way to become more competitive, but they are already on track, exporting some players and with a good SLAR franchise, considering the local level of play. Maybe focus on Romania, Namibia and Georgia (not to mention the urgent need to rethink Italian rugby)?

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby victorsra » Thu, 25 Mar 2021, 16:57

Well, we in South America can't complain about that, their investment since 2016 helped Chile and Brazil.... mostly because of Pichot's lobby.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 26 Mar 2021, 00:57

It's obviously good news for PIs, but a lot of question marks remain on these projects. Fiji Drua seems the most straightforward, it's a proven reality and it looks like a logical step, but Moana Pasifika... Will it be open to players tied to New Zealand? Will it be reserved only to players engaged with Samoa and Tonga? Will they retain their most talented players or will they just either pick ABs, Wallabies or go to Europe? Aren't in the end World Rugby just subsidising a NZRU corporate social responsibility and a Super Rugby/Trans Tasman expansion with everybody's money? Will we ever see transparency on how a Tier 2 union can reach such funding to get a professional team?

I'm not saying World Rugby is wrong spending this money there, I just always have the impression that their investment in PIs is often done just to please media and fans rather than based on objective criteria.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby ficcp » Fri, 26 Mar 2021, 15:31



In which Superugby tournament? Aotearoa, AU, Transman? The article is quite ambiguous.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby geuvanio22 » Fri, 26 Mar 2021, 18:34

ficcp wrote:In which Superugby tournament? Aotearoa, AU, Transman? The article is quite ambiguous.


I thought Super Rugby Aotearoa and AU would be somehow provisional tournaments... With the PIs franchises, I think 12 teams are enough to have one single tournament with enough fixtures for everyone. From 1996 until 2005 Super Rugby had 12 teams as well, they played 11 matches in the first stage and the top 4 teams advanced to semi finals, I don't know if they should bring back this format or try something new, but I honestly don't see why maintain SR Aotearoa and AU as separate things, specially with new franchises.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby Scoob » Fri, 26 Mar 2021, 18:56

NZRFU and ARU need to sign off of these 2 teams before joining super rugby. I think they will,but only through pressure from world rugby and the media.
We will then see how many high profile players will make themselves available for these 2 teams.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby ficcp » Fri, 26 Mar 2021, 22:52

geuvanio22 wrote:
ficcp wrote:In which Superugby tournament? Aotearoa, AU, Transman? The article is quite ambiguous.


I thought Super Rugby Aotearoa and AU would be somehow provisional tournaments... With the PIs franchises, I think 12 teams are enough to have one single tournament with enough fixtures for everyone. From 1996 until 2005 Super Rugby had 12 teams as well, they played 11 matches in the first stage and the top 4 teams advanced to semi finals, I don't know if they should bring back this format or try something new, but I honestly don't see why maintain SR Aotearoa and AU as separate things, specially with new franchises.


So far, Australians are happy with their tournament because they are developing new players and they are not losing week in week out against more poweful kiwi teams. They are increasing the TV attendance respect the older format.
Reds and Brumbies are the two teams that can compete in an extended Superugby now but Rebels and Western Force are far away while Waraths is on a transition period.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby victorsra » Fri, 26 Mar 2021, 23:37

ficcp wrote:


In which Superugby tournament? Aotearoa, AU, Transman? The article is quite ambiguous.



ambiguous indeed, but I guess in 2022 (if the pandemics are controlled), AU and NZ will rebuild a joint SR.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 27 Mar 2021, 01:37

victorsra wrote:
ficcp wrote:


In which Superugby tournament? Aotearoa, AU, Transman? The article is quite ambiguous.



ambiguous indeed, but I guess in 2022 (if the pandemics are controlled), AU and NZ will rebuild a joint SR.


They are looking to establish a Trans-Tasman SR competition for 2022. While all the articles have been saying that they are awaiting NZ Rugby approval etc. being NZ publications they have left out that RA has an equal say in the direction of the competition and inclusion of teams such as Fiji and Moana. A lot of people seem to have missed this. But it is the case. Next year, all thing going well. We'll see a 12 team TT SR competition on our TV screens.

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby victorsra » Sat, 27 Mar 2021, 14:42

That's what I thought, but the issue is how the fixtures will be. 11 matches, like the old Super 12? Or 2 matches against teams of the same country (with Fiji counting as Australia and Moana as NZ)? But that will have the taste of the unfair fixtures of the failed Super 15/18.... Or 3 different competitions? SR AU (with Fiji), SR Aotearoa (with Moana) and SR TT?

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby Canalina » Thu, 01 Apr 2021, 07:38

After having interviewed 35 candidates, Tonga Rugby Union gave the role of national team coach to.. the old national team coach: Toutai Kefu, who leaded the RWC 2019 campaign. He starts now the RWC 2023 campaign

https://www.facebook.com/TongaRugbyOffi ... 9018684214

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Re: Rugby in Oceania

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 01 Apr 2021, 08:26

victorsra wrote:That's what I thought, but the issue is how the fixtures will be. 11 matches, like the old Super 12? Or 2 matches against teams of the same country (with Fiji counting as Australia and Moana as NZ)? But that will have the taste of the unfair fixtures of the failed Super 15/18.... Or 3 different competitions? SR AU (with Fiji), SR Aotearoa (with Moana) and SR TT?


It's going to be a single competition. Neither in their current format are sustainable long term. In terms of schedule. Well, that's still to be decided. I suspect 11 rounds plus finals will likely be too short for broadcasters to garner any value. Similar for the franchises. It's well known that in order for teams to turn a profit they have to have at least 7 home games. So I suspect we'll see a 1.5 round robin schedule for 16 games. Plus finals for a total of 19 weeks. Or something of the like. The question would then be whether the teams you play against are 'local' rivals or a random mix. The random mix seems like probably the fairest option. They could go with 14 weeks if the split the 12 teams into unofficial 3x4 groups. Home and away with your group rivals and then a game against each of the other 8 for a total of 14. Then finals. All with a unified ladder. Which was probably the biggest issue for many with S15. The lack of a a single unified ladder qualifying only the 6 best teams as opposed to the conference winners and then wild cards.

The simplest and arguably fairest schedule would be a double round robin for 22 games plus finals but I don't think there's the appetite for that. Certainly not from NZ.

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