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Americas Rugby

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 22 Jan 2020, 16:06

Pichot retweeted this recently:

Image

"Become" or has always been?

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 14:44


He's deleted that tweet...

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 07 Jul 2020, 02:10

2020 Americas Rugby Championship and Americas Rugby Challenge are cancelled. Pandemics. https://rugbyamericasnorth.com/2020-rug ... -pandemic/

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 07 Jul 2020, 02:17

Is there a full link to that article?

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 07 Jul 2020, 02:33


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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 20:26

Even a South American Championship seems unlikely, given the situation in Buenos Aires and Santiago de Chile.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Figaro » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 18:53

Future looks bleak for rugby in Argentina


Owen Slot, Chief Rugby Correspondent

Monday July 13 2020, 5.00pm, The Times


A small piece of transfer news at the weekend told a much larger story. The news was that Jerónimo de la Fuente, the Argentina centre, is moving from the Jaguares to Perpignan in the French second division. The story is the existential threat facing professional rugby in Argentina.



The climax for the Jaguares came in Super Rugby last season with a semi-final victory over the Brumbies. There were 31,000 in the Estadio José Amalfitani that day, bouncing raucously in their embrace of their team’s 39-7 victory.



However, De la Fuente, the captain, has gone from that team and he is by no means the first. The most significant was the departure of the coach, Gonzalo Quesada, who moved, a month ago, back to Stade Francais, who he guided to victory in the Top14 in 2015. After last year’s exploits in Super Rugby, Quesada had insisted that he wanted to stay with the Jaguares, to see if they could go one step further than beaten finalists. Yet, of course, no one could foresee what would befall the world — or the impact it would make on Argentina.



After Quesada’s exit last month, the players started to follow him to Europe: Guido Petti to Bordeaux, Marcos Kremer to join Quesada at Stade Francais. That is just for starters.



Now De la Fuente. Expect Emiliano Boffelli, one of the most gifted No 15s in the world, to follow shortly. The world has been paralysed by Covid-19, but the best players in Argentina are all leaving because they have ceased to hope that their Jaguares will come back to life.





It is not just the players who have seen the writing on the wall. It is the Jaguares themselves and the Argentine rugby union, the UAR. They have said to the players: it is in your best interests to take up whatever contracts overseas you can get. The problem is partly lockdown and partly geography. In Argentina, they don’t know when they will ever get a game again.



As we know, different forms of Super Rugby have recommenced in New Zealand and Australia. In the short term, they are playing within their own national boundaries. In the long term, it looks doubtful that anyone will play for the Jaguares ever again.



As the game seeks to find a new shape and structure, a petty Antipodean squabble has broken out. The New Zealand rugby union commissioned a strategic report to analyse what structure would serve it best for the next version of Super Rugby. The Australians do not like this at all because the report suggests a structure with at least five Kiwi teams and maybe only two Aussies, plus one from the Pacific Islands.


That may be disappointing for Australia, but note here: not a mention of Argentina.



The brutal reality is that almost every channel of replanning is thinking about the game less in terms of hemispheres and more in timezones. Less latitude, more longitude.



New Zealanders and Australians do not want to have to cross endless timezones to play in Argentina — and that was before coronavirus. Post-Covid, long-haul travel is increasingly frowned upon. Changes to flight schedules have made the journey to Buenos Aires harder too.


If we are now looking at the rugby world longitudinally, rather than hemispherically, it does not exactly suit Argentina. It takes the nation away from the first-tier rugby world and into the developing world of the United States. A lot of work has been done in recent years to ensure that Argentina was firmly part of the former.



It does appear, at least, that Argentina will remain a part of The Rugby Championship (TRC), which will probably grow. TRC could add two nations, most likely Japan and Fiji, to become a six-country event to match the traditional Six Nations in Europe — not necessarily a good fit geographically for Argentina, but it means that it is at least part of something.



However, with the Jaguares looking set to fold, and their best players flocking fast towards Europe, the Pumas appear likely to return to being an international set-up like Fiji and Samoa, where there is no top-level pro rugby at home and the best players regroup from around the world only for international windows and without any broader concern for their welfare or development.



It is not a good time for players to be suddenly on the market either. Europe’s clubs have pretty much done their recruitment for next season. For sure, any club would squeeze in a Boffelli if they could do but clubs are looking at these Argentinian players thinking: 1) we have little, if any, room under our salary cap, and 2) because of the remaining uncertainty, we don’t know how the international calendar is going to look one or two years down the line, so if we sign Boffelli, how much are we actually going to see of him?



What next for the players who cannot get contracts abroad? The UAR is trying to establish a development team to play, again, in the Currie Cup in South Africa — though that was only in the second division last year.



At a time when world rugby is supposedly seeking to expand, this is a worrying case of the opposite. Remember that crowd of 31,000 for the semi-final last year — the attempt to put down roots for a proper professional team? Right now, it is hard to envisage when there ever might be another club or international game in Argentina of anything like the same stature.



And it is not that anyone is at fault here. It is not as if there is an obvious solution.



It is just that rugby is struggling to establish a new structure in this new world, and it would be catastrophic if Argentina was to become a casualty.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 19:25

Yeah this is pretty much what we’ve been saying here for a while. Sounds like the Jaguares won’t exist for at least 2 years, if not gone forever.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Canalina » Wed, 15 Jul 2020, 06:57

Figaro wrote:Less latitude, more longitude.

Just a curiosity: is it not the opposite?
The latitude is the distance from the equator (so direction north-south), the longitude is the distance from the Greenwich meridian (so direction west-east): if the teams belongs to the same timezone the latitude between them grows (from New Zealand to Japan) and the longitude decreases (no more from Australia to Argentina).
On the other hand, we may say that Argentina, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are more or less at the same latitude (there's a parallel that touches all the four nations, I think, passing through Cape Town and Cape Reinga), so it could be correct to affirm "less latitude (as common characteristic), more longitude (as common characteristic)"

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 15 Jul 2020, 07:20

Canalina wrote:
Figaro wrote:Less latitude, more longitude.

Just a curiosity: is it not the opposite?
The latitude is the distance from the equator (so direction north-south), the longitude is the distance from the Greenwich meridian (so direction west-east): if the teams belongs to the same timezone the latitude between them grows (from New Zealand to Japan) and the longitude decreases (no more from Australia to Argentina).
On the other hand, we may say that Argentina, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are more or less at the same latitude (there's a parallel that touches all the four nations, I think, passing through Cape Town and Cape Reinga), so it could be correct to affirm "less latitude (as common characteristic), more longitude (as common characteristic)"


You are correct.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Raven » Wed, 15 Jul 2020, 10:16

Well, it´s all pretty much in the "Air", but in the past months Air New Zealand has ceased flights to Buenos Aires, and rumor has it that Qatar Airways will be buying the Buenos Aires - Cape Town direct route that Malaysian Airlines used to have ca. 10 years ago. The latter could actually be excellent news to try and bridge something between ARG-RSA, and if South African Airways continues to operate the Sao Paulo - Jo'Burg route there might even be some crums for the region as well - (my personal dream) a SLAR mix playing in Currie Cup 1st Div?.

The international press is being a little too negative, yes, Kremer and Petti are immense losses for a SR title chaser Jaguares, but there´s always a chance that may happen (we saw how Isa, Cordero, Sanchez and Matera left, as well as others like Landajo, Gigena and Garcia Botta who were falling in the pecking order). Reports also suggest that Orlando is due to leave to Newcastle, Montoya is likely to leave to Leicester, with Moroni perhaps joining him too.

In spite of all this, I fail to see the bad news, even with Boffelli and perhaps even Cubelli leaving too, both also a part of a core of important players who could seek new professional ventures, the roster was still pretty big. Mix it up with some emerging Ceibos and Pumitas, Jaguares can still be competitive in a Currie Cup and definetely stronger than any team in the Currie Cup First Division as shown by Jaguares XV last season. Even if they need to downsize and join the SLAR in whatever format it appears again, the professional set up in Argentina will continue somehow as most of the players have contracts and the ones leaving where either too expensive or had only one year left on them. Younger players will stay home-based.

I for one see the half-full side of things, finally Jaguares and Pumas will be more different sides, and whoever wants to play in the Argentine National team will have to show their best version, and not just need to stay playing with the local franchise (a rule that had been laxed anyway) competition for a spot will be fierce.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 16 Jul 2020, 20:45

With the Jaguares gone, the UAR should insist in playing the Currie Cup with Argentina XV.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Tiernster » Thu, 16 Jul 2020, 22:44

2 smaller teams in an SLAR, with Argentineans dotted throughout the leagues seems like the probable result.

This league having a playoff time relationship with the MLR still seems the most likely outcome for me.

Is that enough, I think it probably is. If SA decide to beef up Currie cup maybe the playoff time relationship will include them

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 17 Jul 2020, 06:14

I don't think SLAR will want now any joint competition with MLR...

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Tiernster » Fri, 17 Jul 2020, 09:46

Why not, player base in SLAR will likely be stronger with Super Rugby getting kaput'd

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 17 Jul 2020, 13:33

Tiernster wrote:Why not, player base in SLAR will likely be stronger with Super Rugby getting kaput'd


Yes, but a play off arrangement with MLR isn't necessarily needed. I think the UAR should look to get at least a 2nd SLAR team and look to farm out talent to bolster the other franchises. Not suggesting teams full of Argentinians. Just 4 or 5 a squad. This would provide them with a solid local base of players. If Europe or Japan come calling let them go and provide more opportunity to the next generation. In fact, that should be an accepted mark of success initially for the league as it establishes itself. Getting players professional contracts overseas.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 17 Jul 2020, 13:50

Tiernster wrote:Why not, player base in SLAR will likely be stronger with Super Rugby getting kaput'd

Because Sudamerica Rugby is in war with North America. They are even discussion killing the ARC. It is a political issue.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 06:09

Dear.... now it looks like ARC is back to the table and as the RWC Qualy http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2020/0 ... ualifiers/ News coming from Ignacio Chans, Uruguayan journalist

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Canalina » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 06:56

It would be a wise decision, and I "swear" that I thought that before reading that it was taken by Beaumont...

Americas Rugby News seems to me (not only by this article) a bit anti-Beaumont oriented. I can't understand how the decision to have a one and only American qualifying path could be seen as something against South America. It's basically the same thing of having two separate paths (north and south): simply, instead to have 1 (and no more than 1) direct places in the RWC, South America have the chance to have 0, 1 or 2 direct places. The average chance is still 1 spot. And they have three teams competing in the ARC (plus Argentina), while North America has just two teams. So the move would be a bit beneficial to South America, not detrimental

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 17:17

The fact Sudamerica Rugby is a independent federation, with the same status of Rugby Europe, Asia Rugby, Rugby Africa, etc, means it does need a direct spot. But this direct spot should be played inside ARC.

In my opinion, the perfect and fairer situation for 2023 is:
- ARC as RWC Qualy;
- 1 RWC spot for the best North American in the ARC;
- 1 RWC spot the best South American in the ARC;
- 1 spot in the Repecheage for the next best overall (counting North+South);

Uruguay is better than Canada, so this is more than fine.

For 2027, if there is expansion for 24 teams, the Americas would get one more spot, meaning:
- ARC as RWC Qualy;
- 1 RWC spot for the best North American in the ARC;
- 1 RWC spot the best South American in the ARC;
- 1 RWC spot the next best overall in the ARC (counting North+South);
- 1 spot in the Repecheage (best of the rest in the ARC);

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Pro(p) Kicker » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 19:19

So if ARC is being used for qualifying won't this eliminate multiple countries from qualifying before it even began like the European qualifiers? I understand why they overhauled the qualifiers but don't know why they've done it at the expense of smaller nations.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 19:46

Pro(p) Kicker wrote:So if ARC is being used for qualifying won't this eliminate multiple countries from qualifying before it even began like the European qualifiers? I understand why they overhauled the qualifiers but don't know why they've done it at the expense of smaller nations.

Generally the ARC is a more fair qualification pathway than previously. In the last cycle, and I'm guessing that this was based on World Ranking. But.

USA and CAN played off over two legs for Americas 1, Uruguay didn't even get a chance to challenge for Americas 1. Canada and Uruguay played off for Americas 2, then Canada went to the Repechage. So this in fact unites the pathway through a regional competition freeing up test windows. It's better. But is it equal to Europe? Nope.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby ficcp » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 20:18

Pro(p) Kicker wrote:So if ARC is being used for qualifying won't this eliminate multiple countries from qualifying before it even began like the European qualifiers? I understand why they overhauled the qualifiers but don't know why they've done it at the expense of smaller nations.


You are right. The countries out of ARC (ARCHallenge) will not have the possibility to classify for RWC 2023 (The repechage against the last of ARC will only guarantee the possibility to be promoted to ARC for future tournaments). The countries of ARCH division B will not participate at all in the RWC classification process.

The former process was long and complex but those minnow counties could feel that they were part of the RWC, which will not be the case with the new system.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 20:28

Increasing the World Cup to 24 teams will resolve this. 3 Americas places from the ARC with the fourth team getting a qualification playoff and bottom team facing a relegation play off.

ERC could be similar but with top 4 qualifying, 5th place playing the fourth placed Americas team for the 23rd world cup spot, and the bottom team facing a relegation playoff.

Repechage tournament: Americas/Europe playoff loser, Africa 2, Asia 2, Pacific 3.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Thu, 23 Jul 2020, 22:43

The ARC 2020 would have had a Promotion/Relegation playoff and that would count as Paraguay's and Colombia's RWC path. No it is yet to be unederstood how they will access the RWC Qualy.

This is easy to solve. There will be anyway a ARC/ARCh promotion/relegation playoff in 2021. Just like REC had it in the middle of the Qualy. IMHO, it would be logical to allow a promoted team to run for the Repechage playoff in 2022. If the ARCh champions lose in the 2021 playoff, it is over.

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