Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Major League Rugby

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:03

And if the town people want to cheer for a PRO14 they will do it anyway and will choose the team because like a player, they lived in that city, their family has ties with that city, they simply like the colours or love to watch their playing style or were touched by the emotion of a season campaign.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:05

victorsra wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
victorsra wrote:I don't have any data to tell, but I'm not sure if they achieved their goal. Let's say, in Napier (Hawke's Bay), the vast majority of rugby fans support the Hurricanes? In Bridgend, people realy support the Ospreys? I tend to feel outside the main home city, people that want to support a Super Rugby or a PRO14 team simply choose a team because of any random preference (a player, a title campaign, the colours, anything) and not because the team is allegedly representing their region.... I may be wrong, I would like to know more from people from those countries. But I woudn't be surprised if the Crusaders have more fans in Napier than the Hurricanes or that Bridgend people give a damn to PRO14. After all, that's what happens in American cities without major leagues or European and Latin American cities without leading soccer clubs: they either give a damn and keep with their small team or they choose a big team for a much more personal reason.

If I am right, this means teams should have their geographical centres in their names. And maybe relegation-promotion systems in those countries should be considered, allowing Hawke's Bay to go up to the main NZ tournament if they have money, for exemple.


Basically this.

This is what people are actually like in reality. They support who they want for loads of different reasons that are hard to nail down.

One of my mates supports Spurs and his brother supports Villa. Their dad supports Leicester City and uses our tickets sometimes!

As for Wales .... these guys in Neath have zero problem supporting Swansea City.


Use either {Cardiff, Swansea, Llanelli and Newport} or {Cardiff, South Wales, West Wales and East Wales}. IMO, both strategies would be valid, have a logic and would be better connected to reality than the current no-geography approach. Choose a tie, and outside that area it is your players and achievements and the marketing you do around them that wil bring the fans.


The second strategy is absolutely not valid because all of these teams are in South Wales. The first strategy is fine for three of the teams but no good for Ospreys. Ospreys is the daughter of Swansea and Neath. Their success depends on attracting supporters from both settlements. They plan to build a new stadium in Llandarcy, right in the middle of Ospreylia between Swansea, Neath and Port Talbot.

For the Dragons, I never understood why they were never called the Newport & Gwent Dragons. I feel like that would have easily solved their identity problem. Newport and Gwent is a commonly used name for the city and district.

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:16

South, East and West Wales overlap and that is definitly not a problem. The Geography concept of regions is fluid as regions overlap. Always did. Depends on the intention ad on the criterea.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:21

I'm seeing Llandarcy in the Google Maps and it isn't in the middle of the urban area. This might be a huge problem. Is Llandarcy well served by public transportation to Swansea downtown, Neath or Port Talbot? Some clubs build new stadium and found themselves f*cked by the urban dynamics. Sale's Salford stadium is one exemple. Might sound good, but soon people might realize it was a bad idea.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:29

victorsra wrote:South, East and West Wales overlap and that is definitly not a problem. The Geography concept of regions is fluid as regions overlap. Always did. Depends on the intention ad on the criterea.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Wales

Please familiarise yourself with the meaning of South Wales. All four professional clubs and 11 of the 12 Welsh Premiership clubs are in South Wales. Maybe these 15 teams could merge into a single South Wales team. RGC could be renamed North Wales, and a new Mid Wales team could be established. 3 teams for the 3 regions of Wales.

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:36

Yes, I already use it. But again, I don't see it as a problem. East and West Wales take part of South Wales (described a " loosely defined region" by the link you posted).

Look at East Wales definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Wales "The UK Office for National Statistics has as its highest level sub-division, East Wales, covering the whole east side of the country. It is defined as Powys, Flintshire and Wrexham, Monmouthshire and Newport, and Cardiff and Vale of Glamorgan. (The remainder of Wales is termed 'West Wales and The Valleys')".

And West Wales: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Wales "West Wales (Welsh: Gorllewin Cymru) is not clearly defined as a particular region of Wales. Some definitions of West Wales include only Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire, which historically comprised the Welsh principality of Deheubarth[1]:87, 95 and was called "South West Wales" in the Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics (NUTS).[2] Other definitions include Swansea and Neath Port Talbot but exclude Ceredigion.[3][4] The "West Wales and the Valleys" NUTS area includes more westerly parts of North Wales".

Also: "Welsh Athletics has four regions (East, West, North and South), with leagues for various disciplines having regional and inter-region competitions, particularly at school levels. The East Wales region covers Blaenau Gwent, Caerphilly (eastern half), Monmouthshire, Newport, South Powys and Torfaen".

Overlaps are the essence of those definitions. Cant' see a problem...

It would be like rugby posts, an H, with East and West, South in the middle and Cardiff as an enclave. But again, it doesn't matter much.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:49

victorsra wrote:I'm seeing Llandarcy in the Google Maps and it isn't in the middle of the urban area. This might be a huge problem. Is Llandarcy well served by public transportation to Swansea downtown, Neath or Port Talbot? Some clubs build new stadium and found themselves f*cked by the urban dynamics. Sale's Salford stadium is one exemple. Might sound good, but soon people might realize it was a bad idea.


It's on the route of the number 38 bus between Swansea and Neath. It's very accessible by car, it has its own motorway junction. Not so great by train. Ospreys would have to put on extra match day transport.
You need to understand that Swansea RFC was never the biggest team in Swansea. That has always been Swansea City FC. But Neath RFC was the biggest team in Neath and the biggest rugby team in West Glamorgan. It is important to capture supporters from both towns. Ospreys can be the biggest rugby club in Wales. If Swansea RFC and Neath RFC were both in the Pro 14, Swansea RFC would be the smallest Welsh Pro 14 club.

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 20:54

To be accessible for like 10k people is to have many bus lines, train, etc.... otherwise, it isn't and brings problems to the event (not to the super popular matches, but to the average ones...).... Every place on a Earth with a decent number of people has one bus line that reach them. Think about 10k people at the same time (and many wanting to drink :lol:, so, not driving ).
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:02

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:I'm seeing Llandarcy in the Google Maps and it isn't in the middle of the urban area. This might be a huge problem. Is Llandarcy well served by public transportation to Swansea downtown, Neath or Port Talbot? Some clubs build new stadium and found themselves f*cked by the urban dynamics. Sale's Salford stadium is one exemple. Might sound good, but soon people might realize it was a bad idea.


It's on the route of the number 38 bus between Swansea and Neath. It's very accessible by car, it has its own motorway junction. Not so great by train. Ospreys would have to put on extra match day transport.
You need to understand that Swansea RFC was never the biggest team in Swansea. That has always been Swansea City FC. But Neath RFC was the biggest team in Neath and the biggest rugby team in West Glamorgan. It is important to capture supporters from both towns. Ospreys can be the biggest rugby club in Wales. If Swansea RFC and Neath RFC were both in the Pro 14, Swansea RFC would be the smallest Welsh Pro 14 club.

But here is the thing. Neath and Swansea supporters never liked to be united, right? Swansea is the main city, Neath acts as a suburb, right? And the whole metropolitan area is called Swansea Bay, and is inside South Wales. And if Neath people like the Swansea FC, their problem is with Swansea RFC, not with "Swansea" as a name, right? You have options to work with.
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:05

Celtic League average home attendances 2002/2003 season

1. Cardiff 7,000
2. Newport 6,120
3. Pontypridd 5,880
4. Neath 4,594
5. Llanelli 3,294
6. Swansea 2,775
7. Bridgend 2,625
8. Caerphilly 950
9. Ebbw Vale 353

Based purely on attendances, if the top 4 Welsh clubs were selected for Pro rugby, those teams would be Cardiff, Newport, Pontypridd and Neath.

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:07

Attendances is not market...
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 2020
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:30

Historically speaking, professional clubs always had the city name. [City] [sport] club or [sport] club of [city] in official documents. When you look at branding, it came more to the forefront in New York when you had three different teams in town. But the New York Yankees really being the first. The Brooklyn Baseball Club was named the dodgers mostly because of their fans. They also sucked for awhile and their fans called them the bums. How a lot of Baseball teams got their names was based on the colors they wore. Cincinnati Reds are the Cincinatti Baseball Club. They became the Red Stockings and later just Reds because of the long red socks they wore.

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:46

Population by district

Swansea 246,466
Bridgend 144,876
Neath Port Talbot 142,906

Yes Swansea has the largest population, but Swansea is a football city. Neath Port Talbot is a rugby area.

Here are some cities in England & Wales

Birmingham 1million. Major soccer teams 2. professional rugby teams 0
Liverpool 0.5 million. Major soccer teams 2. professional rugby teams 0
Cardiff 346,000 Major soccer teams 1. Professional rugby teams 1.
Leicester 330,000 Major soccer teams 1. Professional rugby teams 1.
Gloucester 122,000 Pro soccer teams 0. Professional rugby teams 1.
Worcester 99,000. Pro soccer teams 0. professional rugby teams 1
Bath 89,000. Pro soccer teams 0 professional rugby teams 1

A large population does not mean there is a market. Several clubs have tried and failed to establish professional rugby teams in Birmingham and Liverpool.
There are some cities that have a rugby team and a top level soccer team, but they are big cities, bigger than Swansea. Some of England's biggest rugby clubs are in small cities, but these are rugby cities and they are not competing with soccer for fans.

Somewhere central and inclusive is ideal. I do though share your concerns about transport for drinking fans. Ideally the new stadium would be near to a train station. There also needs to be a few big pubs near to the ground. There's a whole infrastructure that needs to be built, not just a stadium with a car park.

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sat, 30 May 2020, 21:57

I think we are talking different things. The importance of Neath over Swansea is not the issue. The question is how better names like "South Wales" or "Swansea Bay" (a name that includes Neath and Port Talbot) or even West Glamorgan are compared to "Ospreys". Just that. In fact, Osprey is the name of the bird that is in the Swansea RFC crest, right? The current Ospreys team doesn't have much of Neath (the Welsh All Blacks) in their symbols (that cross is nowhere...) or even colours (the black is always mixed with strange colours....)... it is already far from them, with a name that clearly represents Swansea much more....
Image


If the new stadium has a station, problems solved, indeed.


EDIT: if you don't like South, West and East, another possibility is 3 regions + one club: West Wales, Glamorgan, East Wales + Cardiff RFC. Italy already mix club with region anyway.... so what's the problem? Cardiff is much bigger than the rest... would be cool a Cardiff vs Glamorgan rivalry, city name vs region name, like Roma vs Lazio or Betis vs Sevilla.... but in the Welsh case it could be a Swansea vs Cardiff rivalry at the same time as a City of Cardiff vs Suburbs/Valleys thing. You could see in the Valleys people choosing Cardiff or Glamorgan, building another sort of local rivalry, added to their town vs town Welsh Premiership identities (as one doesn't exclude the other!)... why not?
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 31 May 2020, 00:09

victorsra wrote:I think we are talking different things. The importance of Neath over Swansea is not the issue. The question is how better names like "South Wales" or "Swansea Bay" (a name that includes Neath and Port Talbot) or even West Glamorgan are compared to "Ospreys". Just that. In fact, Osprey is the name of the bird that is in the Swansea RFC crest, right? The current Ospreys team doesn't have much of Neath (the Welsh All Blacks) in their symbols (that cross is nowhere...) or even colours (the black is always mixed with strange colours....)... it is already far from them, with a name that clearly represents Swansea much more....
Image


If the new stadium has a station, problems solved, indeed.


EDIT: if you don't like South, West and East, another possibility is 3 regions + one club: West Wales, Glamorgan, East Wales + Cardiff RFC. Italy already mix club with region anyway.... so what's the problem? Cardiff is much bigger than the rest... would be cool a Cardiff vs Glamorgan rivalry, city name vs region name, like Roma vs Lazio or Betis vs Sevilla.... but in the Welsh case it could be a Swansea vs Cardiff rivalry at the same time as a City of Cardiff vs Suburbs/Valleys thing.


Yes the Osprey comes from the Swansea badge. The colours are black and white. The other colours are because they cover the kits with adverts, but I do think they also come up with several alternative kits for Heineken Cup games etc.

Glamorgan is mostly associated with Glamorgan County Cricket Club in Cardiff, and with the Vale of Glamorgan which is the coastal area between Cardiff and Bridgend.

Swansea Bay is the body of water and the coastline around it.

There isn't really a name for the area of Swansea, Neath Port Talbot and Bridgend, not even a medieval kingdom, which is why someone came up with the name "Ospreylia".

I guess, if you have created a region and it needs a name, you can either:
1. Use the medieval kingdom name ( e.g. Dyfed for Scarlets, Gwent for Dragons)
2. Use a city name.
3. Use an existing place name and try to change its meaning; e.g. Swansea Bay.
4. Name the region after your team (e.g. Ospreylia).

As mentioned there are several English rugby teams with names that do not indicate where they are, e.g. Wasps, Saracens, Harlequins. These have the advantage that they can be relocated without having to be rebranded. And there are teams who moved but didn't rebrand so are now inaccurately named, e.g. London Irish, Sale Sharks. This is my least favourite type of team name; one which is inaccurate or misleading. The other teams are named after their home cities.

So England have a mixed approach to naming rugby teams. I think Wales should also have a mixed naming convention approach. If there is a city or an ancient kingdom to name after, use that plus a colour. If there isn't, name after an animal or tribe of ancient warriors.

These are the team names I would choose.

Dyfed Scarlets (ancient kingdom + colour)
Ospreys (animal)
Cardiff Blues (city + colour)
Newport & Gwent Dragons (city + ancient kingdom + mythical animal)

That's 2 cities, 2 ancient kingdoms, 2 animals and 2 colours.

Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 31 May 2020, 05:31

Well, Swansea Bay as a concept at least exist...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_Bay_(region)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_Bay_City_Region

I realy don't see how inclusive to Neath and Port Talbot is to use Swansea RFC bird as the name for the whole region.... I'd like to know how Neath supporters see the Ospreys.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 31 May 2020, 10:35

Before they make any decisions Ospreys need to do extensive market research to establish where their supporters live now, for the games they play at their current 3 home stadiums.

Posts: 84
Joined: Sun, 05 Feb 2017, 15:38
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Higgik » Sun, 31 May 2020, 13:03

victorsra wrote:Well, Swansea Bay as a concept at least exist...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_Bay_(region)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_Bay_City_Region

I realy don't see how inclusive to Neath and Port Talbot is to use Swansea RFC bird as the name for the whole region.... I'd like to know how Neath supporters see the Ospreys.


Interesting that the Region also includes Carmarthenshire, so Scarelts would be within the Region as well.

Maybe Wales could go down to 3 teams Swansea Bay Ospreys Cardiff Blues and Gwent Dragons.

Posts: 84
Joined: Sun, 05 Feb 2017, 15:38
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Higgik » Sun, 31 May 2020, 13:11

Or even looking further into the city regions, have 2 in South Wales
Swansea Bay Ospreys and Cardiff Dragons.
Add these 2 to the Aviva Premiership.

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 31 May 2020, 13:46

Higgik wrote:
victorsra wrote:Well, Swansea Bay as a concept at least exist...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_Bay_(region)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swansea_Bay_City_Region

I realy don't see how inclusive to Neath and Port Talbot is to use Swansea RFC bird as the name for the whole region.... I'd like to know how Neath supporters see the Ospreys.


Interesting that the Region also includes Carmarthenshire, so Scarelts would be within the Region as well.

Maybe Wales could go down to 3 teams Swansea Bay Ospreys Cardiff Blues and Gwent Dragons.


That very nearly happened. Project Reset, a study by the WRU to determine the future structure of professional rugby in Wales concluded that there should be just three South Wales regions / professional clubs, with Scarlets and Ospreys merging into a single West Wales region.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project ... ion_reform)

They also want a professional team in North Wales. What I don't understand is, why merger 2 clubs and create a new club? Why not just move Ospreys to North Wales. Put the club without the region into the region without a club.

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 31 May 2020, 14:04

Higgik wrote:Or even looking further into the city regions, have 2 in South Wales
Swansea Bay Ospreys and Cardiff Dragons.
Add these 2 to the Aviva Premiership.


I think this would be sensible, and let Wales players play for English clubs. Also have Dragons and a North Wales team play in the English Championship.

User avatar
Posts: 553
Joined: Tue, 22 Apr 2014, 16:02
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby jonny24 » Sun, 31 May 2020, 14:41

Come on, make a new thread for all this.

I keep clicking on this hoping for MLR news. I don't come to this site to argue names for tier 1 clubs on tier 1 countries.


The Arrows were talking about trying for some fall exhibition games, has anyone heard anything from other teams about similar plans?
Norfolk Harvesters RFC

Posts: 886
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 31 May 2020, 14:57

jonny24 wrote:Come on, make a new thread for all this.

I keep clicking on this hoping for MLR news. I don't come to this site to argue names for tier 1 clubs on tier 1 countries.


The Arrows were talking about trying for some fall exhibition games, has anyone heard anything from other teams about similar plans?


Sorry Jonny. I think we've just about finished.

How about the Gilswansea Bay Breeze?

Posts: 84
Joined: Sun, 05 Feb 2017, 15:38
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Higgik » Sun, 31 May 2020, 15:43

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
jonny24 wrote:Come on, make a new thread for all this.

I keep clicking on this hoping for MLR news. I don't come to this site to argue names for tier 1 clubs on tier 1 countries.


The Arrows were talking about trying for some fall exhibition games, has anyone heard anything from other teams about similar plans?


Sorry Jonny. I think we've just about finished.

How about the Gilswansea Bay Breeze?

Or the London Gins

Posts: 2020
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Major League Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 31 May 2020, 16:09

There will be fall Academy Matches for NOLA Gold and 404 Rugby (Rugby ATL Senior Academy Team).

These teams will mostly be populated by players in the collegiate draft that go undrafted. (There's only two rounds)

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 6 guests