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Major League Rugby

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Higgik » Sun, 12 Jul 2020, 09:07

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:American Samoans would qualify as Americans, right?

What can we expect of the conferences? 2 of 7 or 3 of 4/5?

2 conferences would be:
West - Hawaii, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Utah and 2 Texans (Austin/Dallas/Houston)
East - Toronto, New England, New York, DC, Atlanta, New Orleans and 1 Texas (Austin/Dallas/Houston)
Maybe Austin (that doesn't have direct flights to Hawaii) going to East, to have Houston-Dallas rivalry in the West?

3 conferences could be:
West - Hawaii, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Utah
South - Dallas, Austin, Houston, New Orleans, Atlanta
North - Toronto, New England, New York, DC

And just checked, Honolulu has direct flights to: Dallas, Houston, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Salt Lake, Atlanta, Washington, Boston and New York. Seasonal flights to Toronto. No direct flights to Austin and New Orleans.


I think the 3 conference structure is the best. Texas isn't very far west once you bring Hawaii in. Ideally there would be another east team. Columbus, Ohio and Halifax, Nova Scotia are both options.

Agree 15 teams would be great. 18 game season, with play offs for conference winners and the next best 2 records

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 12 Jul 2020, 10:16

theDarky wrote:We mustn't forget that it's a application bid.

they are in an exclusive negotiation with the league but I don't know if they can still be refused by the other franchises.

If this franchise exists just to be a polynesian one it will be a disaster.

They need to have a grassroot program too.

5 clubs for one million people it's nothing event if the potential for development is huge.


They have had their application accepted by MLR but they are also saying they want to join Super Rugby, so from that I think their plan is to have a Pacific Islanders team in Super Rugby and an American team in MLR. Basically a first team and a second team.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby sammo » Sun, 12 Jul 2020, 10:29

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
theDarky wrote:We mustn't forget that it's a application bid.

they are in an exclusive negotiation with the league but I don't know if they can still be refused by the other franchises.

If this franchise exists just to be a polynesian one it will be a disaster.

They need to have a grassroot program too.

5 clubs for one million people it's nothing event if the potential for development is huge.


They have had their application accepted by MLR but they are also saying they want to join Super Rugby, so from that I think their plan is to have a Pacific Islanders team in Super Rugby and an American team in MLR. Basically a first team and a second team.


They haven’t had their application accepted. They have been awarded a 90 day exclusive negotiation window to prove that they meet all of MLRs criteria, after which, if they pass, they will be awarded a place. I think we have already seen a bid fail at this hurdle with LA Coast.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Tobar » Sun, 12 Jul 2020, 16:04

victorsra wrote:American Samoans would qualify as Americans, right?


Yes, they are US nationals and have a right to live and work anywhere in the US. They can become citizens after 3 months of living in the US though.

Though there are next to no rugby players there so it’s not even worth looking at unless players want to come to Hawaii. My understanding is that football is the dominant sport there. The only American Samoa players I know of are David Ainu’u (US Eagle playing for Toulouse) and Jerome Kaino (who moved away when he was 4).

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby sammo » Sun, 12 Jul 2020, 16:07

Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:American Samoans would qualify as Americans, right?


Yes, they are US nationals and have a right to live and work anywhere in the US. They can become citizens after 3 months of living in the US though.

Though there are next to no rugby players there so it’s not even worth looking at unless players want to come to Hawaii. My understanding is that football is the dominant sport there. The only American Samoa players I know of are David Ainu’u (US Eagle playing for Toulouse) and Jerome Kaino (who moved away when he was 4).


I think the new Dallas SH Jinho Mun was born in American Samoa

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Sun, 12 Jul 2020, 18:21

Joe Taufete'e, Andrew, Roland and Shanon Suniula, Tai Enosa... all born in American Samoa as well.

If the Hawaii team creates an academy in Pago Pago there would be suddenly dozens of good players, that's for sure. Even with a small population there, other Samoans would likely to go there as well. How does it work for Western Samoans to work in American Samoa and become American Samoa citizens? There might be a loop.
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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 02:35

theDarky wrote:We mustn't forget that it's a application bid.

they are in an exclusive negotiation with the league but I don't know if they can still be refused by the other franchises.

If this franchise exists just to be a polynesian one it will be a disaster.

They need to have a grassroot program too.

5 clubs for one million people it's nothing event if the potential for development is huge.


There has been at least one bid that achieved the exclusive negotiation phase and was denied.

victorsra wrote:American Samoans would qualify as Americans, right?

What can we expect of the conferences? 2 of 7 or 3 of 4/5?

2 conferences would be:
West - Hawaii, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Utah and 2 Texans (Austin/Dallas/Houston)
East - Toronto, New England, New York, DC, Atlanta, New Orleans and 1 Texas (Austin/Dallas/Houston)
Maybe Austin (that doesn't have direct flights to Hawaii) going to East, to have Houston-Dallas rivalry in the West?

3 conferences could be:
West - Hawaii, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Utah
South - Dallas, Austin, Houston, New Orleans, Atlanta
North - Toronto, New England, New York, DC

And just checked, Honolulu has direct flights to: Dallas, Houston, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Diego, Salt Lake, Atlanta, Washington, Boston and New York. Seasonal flights to Toronto. No direct flights to Austin and New Orleans.


Three Conferences are a non-starter in the American construct. Two conferences with multiple divisions is what we do.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby jonny24 » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 03:41

MLB has three divisions with each conference, so it's not totally foreign.

I agree through, two conferences is the better way to go.
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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 04:39

So does the NBA. The point is that you have two conference playoffs, three gets you what...a round robin tournament, or a non-conference based playoff system.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 05:10

NLL (Lacrosse) currently has 3 conferences: East, West and North https://www.nll.com/standings NLL has 13 teams, so it realy looks like MLR...

And MLS had 3 conferences (Eastern, Central, Western) in 2000 and 2001.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Majo ... cer_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Majo ... cer_season

Exceptions that open space for such model.
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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 07:10

What I don't understand is the lack of imagination by the Hawaiian bidders. They want to join Super Rugby in the long term?
1.) I would not accept this kind of setup to a league. You are fully convinced of a league or you aren't.
2.) if the MLR keeps growing, Super Rugby will be irrelevant.
3.) who tells them that Super Rugby will be around anyhow?

If you already think about leaving, you shouldn't enter.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Higgik » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 07:56

RugbyLiebe wrote:What I don't understand is the lack of imagination by the Hawaiian bidders. They want to join Super Rugby in the long term?
1.) I would not accept this kind of setup to a league. You are fully convinced of a league or you aren't.
2.) if the MLR keeps growing, Super Rugby will be irrelevant.
3.) who tells them that Super Rugby will be around anyhow?

If you already think about leaving, you shouldn't enter.

Totally agree.
They would be better served by choosing MLR. NZ and Aus don't want private investment. The opportunity with MLR is the fact they can create a competitive team easier to attract audiences and the Polynesian links will attract the PI players.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Pedro1 » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 09:38

The Hawaiian bid is backed by a bunch of ex-allblacks with PI heritage, which explains why they want to invest in the pipe dream that is a PI Superrugby franchise. Maybe thinking too much with their hearts.

It never ceases to amaze me how much Rugby circles have a hard on for intercontinental play :)

I don't think they will do it though. No way both MLR and SANZAAR will accept sharing a brand.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 09:49

Pedro1 wrote:The Hawaiian bid is backed by a bunch of ex-allblacks with PI heritage, which explains why they want to invest in the pipe dream that is a PI Superrugby franchise. Maybe thinking too much with their hearts.

It never ceases to amaze me how much Rugby circles have a hard on for intercontinental play :)

I don't think they will do it though. No way both MLR and SANZAAR will accept sharing a brand.


I would say it is a more like a desire for already existing structures. PI-team, oh wait, they were in the Commonwealth and they field a lot of New Zealanders (which off course are not foreigners if they play for them, because culture you know): yeah, that's gonna be huuuuuugeeee.

Oh Japan, the nation with the most rugby fans on earth and a great already in place infrastructure and grassroots joins Super Rugby: nah, that's not working, they are not good enough, the quality of play is not good enough, they just field foreigners, they don't even fill Singapur stadium, where we forced them to play, BLA, BLA, BLA for hours.

There are rarely seen any cases where this can't be applied. And it is shocking. I would say it less as a hard-on, butr more like a servant-like sado-maso-play. Wonder where this fear of losing status to newcomers comes from? Nobility rightfully seeing, that they became irrelevant everywhere apart from the Commonwealth?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 13:19

If they are talking about Super Rugby and if they have money, they might be thinking about their MLR team becoming a feeder team. And when they say Super Rugby it might mean any top NZ competition.
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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 13:45

I don't think there's any contradiction in what the owners are saying about their ambitions for the Hawaii team. Jaguares were in Super Rugby, and Jaguares XV played in the Currie Cup First Division. Hawaii could play in Super Rugby, consisting of mostly Samoan and Tongan internationals, and Hawaii XV could play in MLR, consisting of mostly Americans, Hawaiians and American Samoans. If Hawaii XV players are good enough they could move up to the Hawaii team.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 17:29

But I do see the problem in starting talking about SR right now. They have proven nothing. They must have at least a first succesful MLR season to start such idea. Maybe the reason is just a bit of positive confidence/lack of notion from former All Blacks...
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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 00:10

Chester-Donnelly wrote:I don't think there's any contradiction in what the owners are saying about their ambitions for the Hawaii team. Jaguares were in Super Rugby, and Jaguares XV played in the Currie Cup First Division. Hawaii could play in Super Rugby, consisting of mostly Samoan and Tongan internationals, and Hawaii XV could play in MLR, consisting of mostly Americans, Hawaiians and American Samoans. If Hawaii XV players are good enough they could move up to the Hawaii team.


So then Kanaloa Hawaii (not Hawaii XV) would just be a minor league team. I don’t see why anyone would have any interest in this team nor do I see why they would bother existing in a competition like MLR.

Jaguares and Jaguares XV are completely different. They were run by the UAR with the express purpose of developing Argentine players. This is not the case in Hawaii. The Hawaiian teams are run by private investors who just also want to improve Polynesian rugby. Putting all your eggs in the super rugby basket while also paying for an MLR team is just a waste of money.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 01:13

Tobar wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:I don't think there's any contradiction in what the owners are saying about their ambitions for the Hawaii team. Jaguares were in Super Rugby, and Jaguares XV played in the Currie Cup First Division. Hawaii could play in Super Rugby, consisting of mostly Samoan and Tongan internationals, and Hawaii XV could play in MLR, consisting of mostly Americans, Hawaiians and American Samoans. If Hawaii XV players are good enough they could move up to the Hawaii team.


So then Kanaloa Hawaii (not Hawaii XV) would just be a minor league team. I don’t see why anyone would have any interest in this team nor do I see why they would bother existing in a competition like MLR.

Jaguares and Jaguares XV are completely different. They were run by the UAR with the express purpose of developing Argentine players. This is not the case in Hawaii. The Hawaiian teams are run by private investors who just also want to improve Polynesian rugby. Putting all your eggs in the super rugby basket while also paying for an MLR team is just a waste of money.


Well it definitely sounds like they have money to waste. I don't know how you can get a return on an investment in Polynesian rugby.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Tobar » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 02:20

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Tobar wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:I don't think there's any contradiction in what the owners are saying about their ambitions for the Hawaii team. Jaguares were in Super Rugby, and Jaguares XV played in the Currie Cup First Division. Hawaii could play in Super Rugby, consisting of mostly Samoan and Tongan internationals, and Hawaii XV could play in MLR, consisting of mostly Americans, Hawaiians and American Samoans. If Hawaii XV players are good enough they could move up to the Hawaii team.


So then Kanaloa Hawaii (not Hawaii XV) would just be a minor league team. I don’t see why anyone would have any interest in this team nor do I see why they would bother existing in a competition like MLR.

Jaguares and Jaguares XV are completely different. They were run by the UAR with the express purpose of developing Argentine players. This is not the case in Hawaii. The Hawaiian teams are run by private investors who just also want to improve Polynesian rugby. Putting all your eggs in the super rugby basket while also paying for an MLR team is just a waste of money.


Well it definitely sounds like they have money to waste. I don't know how you can get a return on an investment in Polynesian rugby.


Because it’s based in a US league?

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 06:44

Tobar wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Tobar wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:I don't think there's any contradiction in what the owners are saying about their ambitions for the Hawaii team. Jaguares were in Super Rugby, and Jaguares XV played in the Currie Cup First Division. Hawaii could play in Super Rugby, consisting of mostly Samoan and Tongan internationals, and Hawaii XV could play in MLR, consisting of mostly Americans, Hawaiians and American Samoans. If Hawaii XV players are good enough they could move up to the Hawaii team.


So then Kanaloa Hawaii (not Hawaii XV) would just be a minor league team. I don’t see why anyone would have any interest in this team nor do I see why they would bother existing in a competition like MLR.

Jaguares and Jaguares XV are completely different. They were run by the UAR with the express purpose of developing Argentine players. This is not the case in Hawaii. The Hawaiian teams are run by private investors who just also want to improve Polynesian rugby. Putting all your eggs in the super rugby basket while also paying for an MLR team is just a waste of money.


Well it definitely sounds like they have money to waste. I don't know how you can get a return on an investment in Polynesian rugby.


Because it’s based in a US league?


I agree with Tobar here. It makes no sense to join one league, but dream about playing in another one (which btw. has massive financial problems to begin with).
Does the polynesian community in Hawaii contribute a lot to the states economy? How many indentify as Polynesian anway?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby nick511 » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 12:05

Well an article I read in RNZ pretty much explains the model the ownership group are looking at. Which is basing any Super Rugby team out of South Auckland and keeping the MLR team separate. The article only mentions that they would "coordinate them together". Which isn't unexpected but disappointing that they are willing to take it away from the Islands and basically have another Super team in Auckland.

Auckland is already quite a filled market, south Auckland has a large Polynesian community but it would be highly competitive with league which has a strong established base there and thats not even getting into venues.

So all this talk about having an Hawaiian based Super Rugby team was premature the owners clearly set out to run two different teams in two different competitions away from each other.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/421161 ... rugby-side

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 12:42

nick511 wrote:Well an article I read in RNZ pretty much explains the model the ownership group are looking at. Which is basing any Super Rugby team out of South Auckland and keeping the MLR team separate. The article only mentions that they would "coordinate them together". Which isn't unexpected but disappointing that they are willing to take it away from the Islands and basically have another Super team in Auckland.

Auckland is already quite a filled market, south Auckland has a large Polynesian community but it would be highly competitive with league which has a strong established base there and thats not even getting into venues.

So all this talk about having an Hawaiian based Super Rugby team was premature the owners clearly set out to run two different teams in two different competitions away from each other.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/421161 ... rugby-side


At least this makes more sense than having a Super Rugby team in Hawaii, but it doesn't expand into any new markets. What would be a suitable stadium for this Auckland team? Mount Smart Stadium or North Harbour Stadium? And who would be the supporters? There are already a few rugby teams in Auckland competing for the same fans.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 18:05

nick511 wrote:Well an article I read in RNZ pretty much explains the model the ownership group are looking at. Which is basing any Super Rugby team out of South Auckland and keeping the MLR team separate. The article only mentions that they would "coordinate them together". Which isn't unexpected but disappointing that they are willing to take it away from the Islands and basically have another Super team in Auckland.

Auckland is already quite a filled market, south Auckland has a large Polynesian community but it would be highly competitive with league which has a strong established base there and thats not even getting into venues.

So all this talk about having an Hawaiian based Super Rugby team was premature the owners clearly set out to run two different teams in two different competitions away from each other.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/421161 ... rugby-side


This makes much more sense, one ownership group, two teams.

A second team in Auckland is a great idea for New Zealand too. We need more intra-city derbies in rugby to generate interest, especially in the bigger cities like Auckland & Sydney.

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Re: Major League Rugby

Postby ficcp » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 19:01

The investors are using their money to create teams in 2 different leagues. I think this is a good new for the leagues, for the PI players and also for the countries of the region. To offer more competition is good for the development of the Sport, especially in a new Market like Hawai.

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