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2027 RWC bids

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby qwerty » Fri, 15 Jun 2018, 18:15

And you don't need one if you're eligible for a European passport.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 08:14

4N wrote:That's not tourism, and you might be surprised by the number of resident expats from rugby countries in the US. Even though they are a small percentage of 330 million, they are still present in big numbers compared to rugby countries. Plus some casual Irish-American support for Ireland, resident Samoans and Tongans cheering for their respective teams etc.

I don't have figures but am pretty sure more fans would fly to the US for CC than RWC. Trying to remember how many went to NZ in 2011 - less than 50k I think. With Australia a short flight away.

In fact, I am almost certain the 2025 CC would draw more international visitors than the RWC.


About 130K went to NZ (5K for each of US and Canada was reported in the NZ media). 400K visited ENG-WAL for 2015. They were expecting a bit lower for Japan but recently the noises are that Japan will also probably be around the 400K mark. I'm sure that's a heap more than travel to Confed Cup.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 08:21

Immenso wrote:
4N wrote:That's not tourism, and you might be surprised by the number of resident expats from rugby countries in the US. Even though they are a small percentage of 330 million, they are still present in big numbers compared to rugby countries. Plus some casual Irish-American support for Ireland, resident Samoans and Tongans cheering for their respective teams etc.

I don't have figures but am pretty sure more fans would fly to the US for CC than RWC. Trying to remember how many went to NZ in 2011 - less than 50k I think. With Australia a short flight away.

In fact, I am almost certain the 2025 CC would draw more international visitors than the RWC.

Here are the numbers:

133,200 visitors came to New Zealand for the RWC

. Out of the total 785,600 visitors who came to New Zealand during the RWC time period,
133,200 of these came for the RWC.
. Most of the RWC visitors were from RWC participant countries such as Australia (55,500), France (11,500), South Africa (8,600), England (7,000), the USA (5,400), Ireland (4,100), Argentina (3,000) and Japan (2,800).


There were also large numbers of RWC visitors from non-participating countries, for
example, from Singapore (2,200) and Hong Kong (1,600).

From:
http://www.mbie.govt.nz/publications-re ... ective.pdf


Canada also had about 5K. Interestingly I've heard it mentioned that a good proportion of the French total was actually from Tahiti. Sorry for my post above Immenso. When I posted above about the NZ total I hadn't scrolled down far enough to see you had already replied!

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 08:25

jservuk wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Given the proximity to Canada and Argentina I could easily see a US World Cup generating the biggest number of overseas fans out of all previous tournaments. Plenty of Europeans would make the trip too. I think 3 years of big tourism is an easy argument in favour of hosting RWC between FIFA WC and the Olympic Games.


This would be true if Canada and Arg were huge Rubgy nations, but Canada is T2/T3, and Argentina is still a football dominated country and the distance between Beunos Aires and Texas is ~8,500km compared to ~3,500km London to New York.


If I'm not wrong a large number of Argentinians travelled to ENG-WAL in 2015 so if they can do that they can travel to Texas.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 08:31

Immenso wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:I don't see why the FIFA world cup would mean RWC can't be held in the US. Australia hosted the Olympics and the RWC in a 3 years period, Japan are hosting the same two events within 12 months of each other. If anything 2027 is the right moment for the US, because realistically Australia is the only other option.


Why do you think realistically Australia is the only other option?

I'd say South Africa would be favourites for 2027.


RSA have been favs for the last two RWCs. Favouritism hasn't won them hosting. I think with the current political climate there (although at least Zuma has gone), the noise about corruption, WR may see RSA as a possible risky option. Personally I suspect RSA has become tainted in the eyes of some WR members with the considerable amount of crap that has been taking place in the country over the last decade. I don't think anyone will disagree that rugby-wise it'd be a fantastic host. It's the other stuff.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 08:54

I don't doubt South African's passion for the game when it comes to the Springboks, I'm just a little skeptical they'll turn out to support games not involving T1 nations. Everyone remembers the success of 1995, but no-one remembers that a lot of the crowds were pretty ordinary for the smaller games. You've also got to look at FIFA World Cup in 2010 where a lot of the stadiums weren't full either. Australia in contrast strongly supported games involving T2 nations and would do so again. In fact given the number of people of Pacific Island heritage now we could easily have games involving Fiji and Samoa fill out our biggest stadiums. I just think that we would have greater support for the smaller games.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 09:07

While there was undoubtedly a feel good atmosphere for 1995 I can't help but feel the success of that tournament has been over-rated. Even a number of t1 v t1 games like ABs v IRE and WAL had large swathes of empty seats that you don't see at recent RWCs.

FIFA2010 was probably the crappiest football WC in recent history with a number of poor crowds for pool games. The 2009 Lions tour was also poorly attended in several non-test match games. Durban pulled out of hosting CWG2022 with a number of corruption scandals. This puts into doubt RSA's ability to successfully host large events.

Aussie 2003 impressed me as the first RWC to see good attendances even at T2 v T2 in some larger stadia. I remember seeing the crowd announced as 30K at SFS for GEO v URU for example.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby Blurandski » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 09:36

I think that a country's ability to fill T2vT2 tests is really the clincher, especially with the WC potentially expanding. You could stick Eng v Fra, Ireland v SA anywhere in the world and it'd sell out. For example Fiji v Uruguay got a sellout of over 30k, Samoa v US was just a few hundred short of a sellout with 29k. Even the Tonga v Georgia v Namibia matches (low expat population in UK, low travelling numbers) were all over 10k, and basically sellouts in Sandy Park/Kingsholm.

I wonder how Japan will do in that aspect...

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 09:58

If you have joined WR's The Front Row and subscribed for the RWC19 ticketing site you can see right now (until June 26) the barometers of interest for each game (I think it comes off how much interest for those games was shown during previous rounds of ticketing (team packs, venue packs, packages, rugby family Japan ballot, and host city resident ballot). The two T2 v T2 games in the smallest venue in Kamaishi are high on the likely sellout barometer, while the games with T1 v T2 at Kumamoto and Fukuoka are disappointingly low, especially as Fukuoka has one of the biggest rugby playing populations in Japan. Probably some locals are disappointed with the games they got but Fukuoka can't complain given they've only got a 24K capacity stadium. If the city had built a bigger one in the last 20 years or so they'd be getting juicer games. But there's not really many low barometer games. probably no worse than what was on the 2015 site at the same stage. def most are either medium or high.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 15:16

RugbyLiebe wrote:Not only is Buenos Aires - San Francisco (7s World Cup) even farer away than Buenos Aires - Auckland, but the real dealbreaker is the very strict visa-policy in the USA. As an Argentinian you are not even allowed to have a fly-over with a change of flights in the USA without a visa. To get a tourist visa, you need to actually go the US embassy and go through a personal interview. I doubt a lot of people will do that.

Travel visas are not a tough proposition. It just needs planning. Longer term visas in Europe are totally tougher than American standards having been a student in France on exchange.

It's not really about tourism impact, the FIFA WC tourism impact won't be that much when you look at gross numbers. But the economic impact of the Olympics, FIFA WC, or RWC would be pretty huge. RWC being the smaller of the three. Confederations cup coming here...that's news, that's not even a blip.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 15:51

TheStroBro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Travel visas are not a tough proposition. It just needs planning. Longer term visas in Europe are totally tougher than American standards having been a student in France on exchange.

It's not really about tourism impact, the FIFA WC tourism impact won't be that much when you look at gross numbers. But the economic impact of the Olympics, FIFA WC, or RWC would be pretty huge. RWC being the smaller of the three. Confederations cup coming here...that's news, that's not even a blip.


The planning involves personally travelling to Buenos Aires, the only embassy and then waiting for weeks. I would call a 10-20 hour round-trip tough. But people have different standards. The Argentinians I know therefore avoided to even transit the USA because you even then need a visa.

But I agree it won't matter for tourism. A RWC in the USA is still a brilliant idea.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 16 Jun 2018, 17:19

People with the money travel wherever they want. If our restrictions were as bad as people think then there would be so many less foreigners at DISNEYLAND!

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 06:51

TheStroBro wrote:People with the money travel wherever they want. If our restrictions were as bad as people think then there would be so many less foreigners at DISNEYLAND!


I reckon you had a bad day logic wise. Many foreigners at Disneyland says basically f.... all about Argentinian visas. And the next logical flaw is "people with money travel". that's per se right, but in our case irrelevant. Because the RWC is waiting for people with not that much money, because they travel, too.

I know its an US-thing accepting to be robbed paid-holiday-wise, but that's not the case for the core-fanbase of a RWC. So they are middle-class, have 20-30 paid holidays to spend (often its mandatory to actually take it) and therefore travel a lot. But for a middle class Argentinian, that day-long-trip to the US embassy to BA is maybe a little bit too cost-intensive. At least it will be an additional important point, why we won't see the Argentinians masses at a RWC in the USA (the other being a still struggeling economy).

But again, the Brits don't care, they don't have this Visa issues, afaik nobody from the former Commonwealth's first world nations has. So its them, most EU countries and Asians you meet at Disneyland.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby netrug1 » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 07:20

Because I had been to Iran, I needed a USA visa to go from LA airport to the cruise terminal. I was just passing through the US. I went to the US embassy in Sydney with all the documents and photos required. I was in a line for over an hour but when I got to the desk, I was asked two questions ( Why did I need a visa instead of an ESTA and when I said I had been to Iran, I was asked, was it with a tour group so I said yes) and was given a five year visa. No problem at all.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby Figaro » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 09:15

I said this last time, but for me Italy is the standout contender and the right balance of traditional markets and development market. I still don't understand why they pulled out of 2023. They've got the stadiums and the big-event experience, and would get a massive travelling contingent from France and the UK - a safer bet than Japan was (even though I'm very happy with Japan hosting) and safer than the US would be.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 10:25

Agree that Italy has it all going on if it could just put it together.

I think 2 Euro WCs in a row would not be looked on too favorably by the swing voters though.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 15:02

Figaro wrote:\t for me Italy is the standout contender and the right balance of traditional markets and development market. I still don't understand why they pulled out of 2023.

The Italian bid lacked political support.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby Immenso » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 22:01

Figaro wrote:I said this last time, but for me Italy is the standout contender and the right balance of traditional markets and development market. I still don't understand why they pulled out of 2023. They've got the stadiums and the big-event experience, and would get a massive travelling contingent from France and the UK - a safer bet than Japan was (even though I'm very happy with Japan hosting) and safer than the US would be.


They don't have the stadiums, though.

When Italy lost out France for Euro 2016, they lost the government backing for upgrading the stadiums.

The Italian stadiums are very aged, with athletics tracks.

Not that I think the stadiums for a RWC should be the be all and end all. They would still have had enough good stadiums, but they paled in comparison compared to two of their direct bidding rivals (France and South Africa).

But as someone said above, the reason was government backing was withdrawn - and the government backing was dependent on the success of their Euro bid.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 23:04

RugbyLiebe wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:People with the money travel wherever they want. If our restrictions were as bad as people think then there would be so many less foreigners at DISNEYLAND!


I reckon you had a bad day logic wise. Many foreigners at Disneyland says basically f.... all about Argentinian visas. And the next logical flaw is "people with money travel". that's per se right, but in our case irrelevant. Because the RWC is waiting for people with not that much money, because they travel, too.

I know its an US-thing accepting to be robbed paid-holiday-wise, but that's not the case for the core-fanbase of a RWC. So they are middle-class, have 20-30 paid holidays to spend (often its mandatory to actually take it) and therefore travel a lot. But for a middle class Argentinian, that day-long-trip to the US embassy to BA is maybe a little bit too cost-intensive. At least it will be an additional important point, why we won't see the Argentinians masses at a RWC in the USA (the other being a still struggeling economy).

But again, the Brits don't care, they don't have this Visa issues, afaik nobody from the former Commonwealth's first world nations has. So its them, most EU countries and Asians you meet at Disneyland.


Or are you having a rough day logic wise. People in the poorhouse are not attending the world cup. Coming across oceans is expensive in it's own right. We're talking a minimum of this being a 4-5k trip. So are you saying that Argentines don't travel anywhere in the world because going to an embassy or consulate is just too harsh? Give me a break. People in the states do the same thing that live in the middle of the country, they take the plane flight or drive all day to get to a consulate appointment. Give me a break.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby Tobar » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 01:43

Adding any layers will limit the amount of fans who go, period. It doesn't matter if they have money or if it's just something they have to do in order to go. It's like adding a paywall to watch rugby, sure the fans with money and the ones who want to watch it will watch it (except for me because I just stream that shit). If you don't live in the city then it's a pain in the ass to have to pay to go there and hope that you get a visa, which doesn't always happen. You wait in line for hours hoping you get it, I've had family members get denied for petty reasons. The US is tough as shit to come to. Doesn't help that the Argentinian peso (and economy) haven't been very good in recent years.

But as RugbyLiebe said, I don't think it will be a barrier at all for a RWC. Don't think Argentinians are known for traveling en masse unless it's a World Cup. Australians and Irish on the other hand fucking love coming to the US and traveling in general.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 05:47

Tobar wrote:Adding any layers will limit the amount of fans who go, period. It doesn't matter if they have money or if it's just something they have to do in order to go. It's like adding a paywall to watch rugby, sure the fans with money and the ones who want to watch it will watch it (except for me because I just stream that shit). If you don't live in the city then it's a pain in the ass to have to pay to go there and hope that you get a visa, which doesn't always happen. You wait in line for hours hoping you get it, I've had family members get denied for petty reasons. The US is tough as shit to come to. Doesn't help that the Argentinian peso (and economy) haven't been very good in recent years.

But as RugbyLiebe said, I don't think it will be a barrier at all for a RWC. Don't think Argentinians are known for traveling en masse unless it's a World Cup. Australians and Irish on the other hand fucking love coming to the US and traveling in general.


Agree. I had to get a visa for Russia for RWC7s in 2013. Was a very stressful experience as they declined me the first time (my fault, and compared to other countries I've had to get visas for like India and Ukraine their application requirements were strict) and I only got the thumbs up one day before scheduled to leave NZ and infact picked up my passport from the courier centre on the way to the airport! Now for me I really wanted to go so I was prepared to put up with the visa crap, but a lot of others won't. In 2009 I went to Europe to watch ABs at the San Siro in Milan v Italy. After that I travelled to the former Yugoslavia countries. However I didn't go to Montenegro or Serbia because at that time Kiwis still required visas for them so I just couldn't be bothered.

Also this "added layer" can also cause fans to miss going to RWC by being declined for visas. I bought tickets for RWC15 for one of the posters on here to go and watch a couple of his nation's games and we were going to meet up in the UK but he got declined a visa to the UK for what seems a pretty bullshit reason. It's really crap that he wasn't able to attend the RWC and watch his team play.

Actually Argentinians have become amongst the biggest number of supporters in the last couple of RWCs. About 10K came to NZ which was more than the IRE, WAL etc, and then there was also a large number at 2015. I went to the ARG v TON game. There was a good number there. Look at the ABs v Pumas game at Wembley. There was probably 20-30K Puma fans there.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 06:49

TheStroBro wrote:
Or are you having a rough day logic wise. People in the poorhouse are not attending the world cup. Coming across oceans is expensive in it's own right. We're talking a minimum of this being a 4-5k trip. So are you saying that Argentines don't travel anywhere in the world because going to an embassy or consulate is just too harsh? Give me a break. People in the states do the same thing that live in the middle of the country, they take the plane flight or drive all day to get to a consulate appointment. Give me a break.


Maybe a break at Disneyland would do you good. I was stating the mere fact, that your analogy that many foreigners go to visit Mickey Mouse has nothing to do with that it is not that easy to get a visa to the US from Argentina. You haven't stated that there are many Argentinians at Disneyland, which would have been a logical conclusion.
And no I am not saying that no Argentinians are going to a RWC in the USA. I am stating, that, due to tougher visa conditions it is harder for Argentinians to go to the USA than for most other rugby hotbed fans, which will likely reduce the overall number of Argentinians. Or as Tobar, on spot wrote, bring in a layer.

YamahaKiwi wrote:About 10K came to NZ which was more than the IRE, WAL etc


It was 3k (interesting read about all tourists during RWC 2011 in the following link). But still impressive and actually more than Japan (closely not Ireland though).

"Most of the RWC visitors were from RWC participant countries such as Australia (55,500), France (11,500), South Africa (8,600), England (7,000),
the USA (5,400), Ireland (4,100), Argentina (3,000) and Japan (2,800)."
page 3 + see great graphic on page 8.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 94yAtrKwiw
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby qwerty » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 07:50

Exceptions about visas can be made for events like these. The FWC is being played in Russia right now, and you can get a fan ID online (and receive it by mail) which allows you to travel visa free for the duration of the tournament.

In this case I didn't need it because Uruguayan passports can enter Russia visa-free, but it's useful for most countries.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby STMKY » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 09:38

Interesting information from the football world championship 2018. The figure before the start of the tournament. It sold 2.4 million tickets to the games. 64% were bought by foreigners, 36% bought by Russians.
Top 10 foreign countries whose citizens bought tickets:
1 US 89,000 fans (the US team is not involved)
2 Brazil 73,000 fans
3 Columbia 65,000 fans
4 Germany 63000 fans
5 Mexico 60,000 fans
6 Argentina 54000 fans
7 Peru 44,000 fans
8 China 40000 fans (the Chinese team is not involved)
9 Australia 36,000 fans
10 England 32,000 fans
From Europe at the moment there are very few fans because of the wild Russophobic propaganda. Even from faraway Australia there are more fans than from England, Spain, France, Poland and other countries.
For the month of the tournament, about 2 million foreign fans are expected. Even despite the wild propaganda in Europe. Apparently the abolition of visas for all the fans greatly influenced this.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 19 Jun 2018, 11:12

STMKY wrote:Top 10 foreign countries whose citizens bought tickets:
1 US 89,000 fans (the US team is not involved)
2 Brazil 73,000 fans
3 Columbia 65,000 fans
4 Germany 63000 fans
5 Mexico 60,000 fans
6 Argentina 54000 fans
7 Peru 44,000 fans
8 China 40000 fans (the Chinese team is not involved)
9 Australia 36,000 fans
10 England 32,000 fans
.


Really interesting.
The USA is not that surprising giving that most of those will originally be from other countries or Mexicans.
Where does the Colombian and the Peruvian number come from? Looks way to big. German number is also extremely low, as in the first ticket phase alone 340k ticket requests were sent from here.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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