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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 17:34

Maybe if Cheetahs win a lawsuit PRO16 could consider that PRO18 model of 3 groups of 6 and, with this, Jaguares could be back to the table? UAR made it very clear they are more interested in a team playing at home not Europe based), and Argentina is not well conected with flights to South Africa. Moreover, the $ issues related to PRO14 are VERY different from Super Rugby (Argentina would need to pay to be there and a lot...plus more rounds to play, different logistics, contracts, etc etc, and less appeal in Argentine market....). But I'm pretty sure at least in the press this idea will pop up. In the end, I think it will be PRO16, with South Africa experiencing one more a nightmare. Remember when they had 6 teams and 5 spots only in the Super Rugby? Yep, all over again.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 17:46

victorsra wrote:Most obvious outcome: https://www.rugbypass.com/news/pro14-re ... -sa-rugby/


Could SA not add the 4 Super Rugby to the Cheetahs and then replace the Kings with the Griquas ?

Have a 6 team SA conference , 6 team Scots/Irish and 6 teams Welsh / Italian. You play your group home and away , and then 6 games versus opposition across the other two divisions. The first season there is an attempt to agree an equality of the fixtures of standards , but thereon matchups are based on division ranking from the previous season.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 18:18

SAR said they can't sustain 6. Griquas would definitly need SAR money.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 18:33

Rebus wrote:I recall an interview with Martin Anayi , Pro14 Chief Executive which I dug up and it talked about expansion into other markets

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ain-canada

Since this was released , have their been any positive action coming from other markets that they wish to join the Pro league. I am ruling out the North Americans , purely because I beleive they have their own model for growth and using the Toronto Wolfpack as an example , I cannot see a single team leaving the MLR and joining the Pro league.


Basically no. America makes no sense for the reasons you suggest and no other teams in Europe or Africa are good enough or rich enough (a Georgian team would be theoretically competitive but only if they could repatriate a lot of their national team and it's not clear that'd be a good use of their limited funds).

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 18:56

I think transcontinental leagues are the wrong model, but as it seems South Africa still wants them, I think a PRO18 would even mean less costs (but the $ share is obviously smaller for each team).

Let's say, 3 groups of 6. First of all, I think Scotland and Wales would want to be in the same conference. Nobody wants to be with the Irish teams, because it means less playoffs chances, and both Glasgow and Edinburgh are performing better than Ospreys, Cardiff and Dragons, so makes no sense for the Scottish to accept to be in the Irish group.

Another important thing is that I undertand PRO14 wants less but meaningful rounds, wanting to avoid overlap with national teams. This means something around 16/18 rounds + 3 playoffs. So, how would it be in a PRO18?

- British Group: 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish;
- Euro Group: 4 Irish, 2 Italians;
- Southern Group: 5 SAs, 1 Argie;

10 matches inside the same conference + 3 home matches against one conference, 3 away against the other conference = 16. And 3 playoffs. So, only 3 matches in Europe for the South Africans + playoffs. This means the same amount of matches of the Super Rugby until 2019. The Europeans would still have Champions/Challenge Cups, while the South Africans would be able to play a Super 8 against Aussies/Kiwis and a short Currie Cup. And Jaguares would have more or less the same model of franchise.

It could be 22 matches (10 + 6 + 6, with everybody facing everybody at least once), but it would mean that sort of busy calendar, double the travels....

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 19:56

The Italians and Scots could swap conferences each year. No reason it has to be the same each time.

British and Irish League is the way forward though.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 20:03

Only if they buy Italy's share or terminate the league somehow, don't know the options. Italy is a PRO14 stakeowner.

The Italians and Scots could swap conferences each year. No reason it has to be the same each time.

Fair

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 21:32

victorsra wrote:I think transcontinental leagues are the wrong model, but as it seems South Africa still wants them, I think a PRO18 would even mean less costs (but the $ share is obviously smaller for each team).

Let's say, 3 groups of 6. First of all, I think Scotland and Wales would want to be in the same conference. Nobody wants to be with the Irish teams, because it means less playoffs chances, and both Glasgow and Edinburgh are performing better than Ospreys, Cardiff and Dragons, so makes no sense for the Scottish to accept to be in the Irish group.

Another important thing is that I undertand PRO14 wants less but meaningful rounds, wanting to avoid overlap with national teams. This means something around 16/18 rounds + 3 playoffs. So, how would it be in a PRO18?

- British Group: 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish;
- Euro Group: 4 Irish, 2 Italians;
- Southern Group: 5 SAs, 1 Argie;

10 matches inside the same conference + 3 home matches against one conference, 3 away against the other conference = 16. And 3 playoffs. So, only 3 matches in Europe for the South Africans + playoffs. This means the same amount of matches of the Super Rugby until 2019. The Europeans would still have Champions/Challenge Cups, while the South Africans would be able to play a Super 8 against Aussies/Kiwis and a short Currie Cup. And Jaguares would have more or less the same model of franchise.

It could be 22 matches (10 + 6 + 6, with everybody facing everybody at least once), but it would mean that sort of busy calendar, double the travels....


Where would the Argentinians play their home games ? Or are you thinking they would be based in South Africa like the Jaguares XV playing in the Currie Cup. Could play their games at the Kings ground to be honest , or would that be rubbing salt into the wounds

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 28 Sep 2020, 22:10

it doesn't worth if it isn't in Buenos Aires. Must be there, otherwise forget.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 00:14

victorsra wrote:it doesn't worth if it isn't in Buenos Aires. Must be there, otherwise forget.


Then forget it. It's a good format if the six Southern Hemisphere teams are in Africa. South Africa should have six teams and Port Elizabeth, as one of the biggest cities, should have a team.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 00:17

Well, as I showed, it is possible to recreate the Super Rugby in PRO14. But, in the case of Argentina, would mean less travel and better time zones. The question is if the Europeans will want that and we know the Cartellians...

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 01:30

I don't think I have ever read that Pro 14 wants to expand into South America or recreate Super Rugby.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 03:28

PRO14 never said that indeed. But Argentina did. Pichot confirmed they are studying and this is a possibility. But he said it is just one among others and that the major issues are that it doesn't worth to have a team-in-exile and that PRO14 asks to much $. I honestly don't believe Argentina would play a PRO18. I'm just making an analysis about how it could work. The fact is: PRO14 would like to have a bit less rounds, avoiding overlap with national teams. And would fit to work a bit more like the (now former) Super Rugby.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 07:39

It is not out of the realms of fantasy that this could happen

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/ ... unionteam1

Argentina have applied to join the 6 nations before and if they are based in South Afica as a a club side , would they try this again.
It seems a logical decision to make , particulalry if there has been a team playing, albeit in a shortened Currie Cup season, for a few seasons.

Guessing and counter guessing aside , the Pro league would be delighted to include an Argentinian team and CVC will be rubbing their hands at this prospect. Taking a massive leap away from just this competition , if Super Rugby dies , SA and Argentina will want to take part in a competition which benefits their club teams so expect an invite from the 6 nations for participation for both.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 09:35

It would be a total U-turn if Pro League, after talking big about expanding, then didn't try to include the Jaguares. And it does resolve the problem of there being only 5 professional South African teams. It just adds some more logistical problems. A possible compromise could be Jaguares to swap some of their home games with away games, so the South African teams don't have to travel to South America every season for a single game, instead they can play 2 tests in Argentina on alternate years.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 11:53

Decided to read more about the possible expansion plans and could see the Jaguares possibly being involved , but what about other countries ?
Appreciate that every time you expand the cost base of the league grows also , but if you are looking at the expansion plans are we talking NFL size or just wait and see ?

It appears the model is looking at teams supported by Rugby Unions and not private organisations or individuals , then there has to be some sort of altruism here. It is easy to go for the low hanging fruit first such as SA and Argentinian clubs who are struggling for a top flight home , but where next ? If rugby unions are to finance the teams , then there has to be an understanding that the greatest level of income is from home internationals and the commercial benefits associated , tv , sponsorship , et al. Therefore if the Pro league wants to expand into markets such as Germany , Georgia , Spain or other countries Africa (Namibia , Uganda or Kenya) then the national teams must be playing in those countries otherwise the Pro league is only playing lip service to talk of expansion.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 12:36

Rebus wrote:It is easy to go for the low hanging fruit first such as SA and Argentinian clubs who are struggling for a top flight home , but where next ? If rugby unions are to finance the teams , then there has to be an understanding that the greatest level of income is from home internationals and the commercial benefits associated , tv , sponsorship , et al. Therefore if the Pro league wants to expand into markets such as Germany , Georgia , Spain or other countries Africa (Namibia , Uganda or Kenya) then the national teams must be playing in those countries otherwise the Pro league is only playing lip service to talk of expansion.


Rugby's problems looking at it from club level summarized in one post.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 12:56

I believe the Pro League will be the last intercontinental league. Spain, Germany etc require a European solution, Kenya, Namibia etc require an African solution.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 14:00

Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would be a total U-turn if Pro League, after talking big about expanding, then didn't try to include the Jaguares. And it does resolve the problem of there being only 5 professional South African teams. It just adds some more logistical problems. A possible compromise could be Jaguares to swap some of their home games with away games, so the South African teams don't have to travel to South America every season for a single game, instead they can play 2 tests in Argentina on alternate years.


I don't see why. South Africans never complained about traveling to Argentina in Super Rugby AFAIK. If the number of matches more or less like Super Rugby's it is ok to play in Buenos Aires.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 14:32

victorsra wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:It would be a total U-turn if Pro League, after talking big about expanding, then didn't try to include the Jaguares. And it does resolve the problem of there being only 5 professional South African teams. It just adds some more logistical problems. A possible compromise could be Jaguares to swap some of their home games with away games, so the South African teams don't have to travel to South America every season for a single game, instead they can play 2 tests in Argentina on alternate years.


I don't see why. South Africans never complained about traveling to Argentina in Super Rugby AFAIK. If the number of matches more or less like Super Rugby's it is ok to play in Buenos Aires.


Intercontinental travel for a single game of rugby needs to be minimised for cost, player welfare and environmental impact reasons. I'm not even sure if there are direct flights between South Africa and Argentina.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 14:40

The time zone change is not a problem from South Africa to Argentina. The player welfare problem is mostly related to those bizarre time zone changes from Oceania to Africa. If Jaguares don't play 8 home matches, also forget, doesn't worth. South Africans were complaining about Oceania, not Argentina, although there aren't direct flights (need conection in São Paulo).

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 15:04

victorsra wrote:The time zone change is not a problem from South Africa to Argentina. The player welfare problem is mostly related to those bizarre time zone changes from Oceania to Africa. If Jaguares don't play 8 home matches, also forget, doesn't worth. South Africans were complaining about Oceania, not Argentina, although there aren't direct flights (need conection in São Paulo).


Well South Africa are now talking about playing in the Pro league with no mention of Jaguares whatsoever. I didn't say anything about not playing 8 home games. I said swap some home games with away games, so for example play 2 home games against Stormers one year, and 2 away games against Sharks. Then the next year play 2 away games against Stormers and 2 home games against Sharks. It means the South African teams only have to travel to South America in alternate years. For the second home game against Jaguares, Stormers and Sharks could play that in Port Elizabeth to give them a game.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 15:17

South Africa being in the Pro League will break the pro league financially. It's really random for the Pro12 Unions to actually move forward with this. The travel costs are one of the main reasons that Super Rugby is failing now. It doesn't have enough gate or TV revenue to wholly support the travel costs. Just because the timezones aren't an issue to get from Dublin to Pretoria...it's still a helluva hump to get there. You lose an actual day each time.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 16:04

TheStroBro wrote:South Africa being in the Pro League will break the pro league financially. It's really random for the Pro12 Unions to actually move forward with this. The travel costs are one of the main reasons that Super Rugby is failing now. It doesn't have enough gate or TV revenue to wholly support the travel costs. Just because the timezones aren't an issue to get from Dublin to Pretoria...it's still a helluva hump to get there. You lose an actual day each time.


It should be profitable if they're clever with the scheduling. Leinster play 16 regular season games.
8 home games.
3 away games in Ireland.
2 away games in Italy.
3 away games in Britain.

Following year.
8 home games.
3 away games in Ireland.
2 away games in Scotland.
3 away games in South Africa on one trip.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Tue, 29 Sep 2020, 16:28

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:The time zone change is not a problem from South Africa to Argentina. The player welfare problem is mostly related to those bizarre time zone changes from Oceania to Africa. If Jaguares don't play 8 home matches, also forget, doesn't worth. South Africans were complaining about Oceania, not Argentina, although there aren't direct flights (need conection in São Paulo).


Well South Africa are now talking about playing in the Pro league with no mention of Jaguares whatsoever. I didn't say anything about not playing 8 home games. I said swap some home games with away games, so for example play 2 home games against Stormers one year, and 2 away games against Sharks. Then the next year play 2 away games against Stormers and 2 home games against Sharks. It means the South African teams only have to travel to South America in alternate years. For the second home game against Jaguares, Stormers and Sharks could play that in Port Elizabeth to give them a game.


PRO14 and SA aren't talking about Jaguares in public, I said this. But in Argentina they talked about it. That's why I brought it. I don't think transcontinental leagues are a solution of anything, they will always have a deep problem of costs/welfare vs benefits.

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