Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 06 Nov 2020, 15:46

That's what English RL is doing right: they have promotion/relegation :)

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Fri, 06 Nov 2020, 18:21


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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Immenso » Fri, 06 Nov 2020, 20:46

Jeezus, that's a terrible article. BBC, I expect better.

First line: "The All Blacks rugby team is in talks with private equity investors ...."

I can just imagine Sam Cane dividing his time this week between tackling practice and negotiating a liquidity investment by a private equity firm.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 12 Nov 2020, 13:55

Once more, Pumas vs All Blacks will be at 3 AM in Argentina time. Seriously, Sanzaar couldn't care less about Argentina fans. Zero commercial project for them.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 14:14

Here's an interesting article from The Guardian today about Amazon's £20m investment in the Autmn Internationals.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... idding-war

Some interested snippets:

* RU is the 6th most popular sport in UK with 12m fans.
* RU is behind F1 but ahead of cricket, with greater appeal among young and female audiences. CORRECTION The article is badly written but the reports considers the picture for RU among the young and women to be far less positive.
* RU as a sport is massively under valued, hence why CVC are involved
* Biggest problem is the calendar
* RU will now court pay TV for rights to recoup losses from Covid.

I don't know the full source, the article mentions "Nielson Sports" as the source. Couldn't find this report though.
Last edited by jservuk on Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 14:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 14:21


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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 14:24


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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 14:39

just read it, could be lower...

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 15:35

Sounds very misleading. They count swimming as 2nd because people... swim...

It is always misleading when you mix what people play/practice with what people watch/consume.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 19:09

Really interesting. Team sports most popular to view.
1. Football
2. Rugby union
3. Cricket
4. Rugby league
5. Basketball
6. Netball
7. Volleyball

I had no idea volleyball was this popular in Britain.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 20:34

Bigger than Ice Hockey?

Probably people PLAY more volleyball... because it is a very good recreational sport.

Once more, not logical to mix "played" and "watched".

But this sounds right:
1. Football
2. Rugby union
3. Cricket
4. Rugby league
5. Basketball
6. Netball

Right?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby vino_93 » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 20:53

Isn't Ice hockey the major indoor sport in Uk ? I mean, Belfast, Nottingham, Sheffield are playing in big arenas with good attendances. And it's correct for the other teams too, cardiff is sold out more or less everytime with its 3000 seats arena, Glasgow has a similar attendance, ... And the league is established since more time than BB.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 21:39

victorsra wrote:Bigger than Ice Hockey?

Probably people PLAY more volleyball... because it is a very good recreational sport.

Once more, not logical to mix "played" and "watched".

But this sounds right:
1. Football
2. Rugby union
3. Cricket
4. Rugby league
5. Basketball
6. Netball

Right?


Yes, from my experience (I am 41 years old and I have lived in 3 towns, in North, Midlands and South) this is exactly what I would expect.

For ice hockey, the population of the survey was 1000 people, they might not have factored in the fact that ice hockey is very popular in some cities and not at all in others. Maybe they didn't survey people in Sheffield and Nottingham, or they just happened to not contact any ice hockey fans.

I am surprised to see softball and lacrosse in the results. I have never heard of anyone playing or watching those sports.

I am encouraged by volleyball being included. In Britain we don't have indoor sports arenas. In my region, South West England there are none. There are 2 professional basketball teams. Plymouth Raiders plays in a theatre and Bristol Flyers play in a gym hall with 750 seats. And the Netball Superleague team Team Bath plays in the university sports hall. I would love it if we had proper sports arenas like they have in Europe. If we had an elite volleyball league there would be more reason for our cities to invest in proper indoor sports arenas, which would help our basketball teams improve to the level of other European countries.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 21:41

Would you place Ice Hockey as 7th? Or even higher?

I know UK (Manchester region, more specificaly) had a sort of Lacrosse boom somewhen in the 19th century. Fascinating, in fact, i'd like to know more.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 21:43

victorsra wrote:Would you place Ice Hockey as 7th? Or even higher?


Yes at least seventh. And I don't understand how softball and lacrosse are on there, but NFL is not. Maybe the sample size was too small.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 21:49

Well, but if it is UK, where are Hurling, Gaelic Football (Northern Ireland) and Shinty (Scotland)? I guess Shinty is quite small in demographics, but the Gaelic Sports should be a bit bigger? Well, Northern Ireland is small, anyway, but I wonder if they were listed. And there is a whole Irish diaspora in England, so...

Also, it is also disappointing to see Field Hockey behind many sport... I thought it was more important.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 13 Nov 2020, 23:07

victorsra wrote:Well, but if it is UK, where are Hurling, Gaelic Football (Northern Ireland) and Shinty (Scotland)? I guess Shinty is quite small in demographics, but the Gaelic Sports should be a bit bigger? Well, Northern Ireland is small, anyway, but I wonder if they were listed. And there is a whole Irish diaspora in England, so...

Also, it is also disappointing to see Field Hockey behind many sport... I thought it was more important.


With these things it's never clear if Northern Ireland is included or not, unless it is stated specifically. Even so, with the Irish diaspora I would expect there to be more fans of Gaelic Games.
I just think the sample size was a bit small.
Shinty is played in the far north where the population density is low so probably doesn't show up very highly as a national percentage.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 00:11

victorsra wrote:Sounds very misleading. They count swimming as 2nd because people... swim...

It is always misleading when you mix what people play/practice with what people watch/consume.


I think it's an attempt to accurately measure the popularity of the sports in the UK using a variety of measures to derive an overall position.

It is reports like these that drive investment decisions by heavy weight money men, and media companies, so the reports carries some weight in areas where it really counts.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 01:08

Ok, but what is "popularity"? That's a problematic concept. Play/Practice vs Watch.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 11:34

victorsra wrote:Ok, but what is "popularity"? That's a problematic concept. Play/Practice vs Watch.


That's an interesting question Victor but one that you won't find a satisfactory answer for.


From a commercial/value perspective, TV audience is what counts, then stadium attendance. In other words, you can judge a sports 'popularity' by how much media companies are prepared to pay for rights to its events, and how much customers are willing to pay the media companies to watch.

From a positive engagement angle, active participation is important. A sport can be huge in terms of participation, but if it doesn't have great TV audience it won't register.

I think the report mentioned attempts to combine these and come up with a ranking. You might not agree with it, but it's hard to argue with the method. Or, you can choose to ignore the participation element and insist the viewership and attendance figures are all that count.

My only criticism of this report is the impact of 'spike events' that cause a transient sudden peak in viewership, e.g. curling at the Olympics getting good viewing figures for 2 days every 4 years (or whenever a Briton is doing well), compared to the constant hum of viewership levels sustained throughout the year by football, rugby etc. Difficult to figure out what these spikes mean, and more difficult to derive what the medium-long term impacts is.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 16:11

I would like to see this same survey done with a bigger population and break it down by class, ethnicity and region.
I would also like a map of where sports teams fans live. For example in Swindon rugby fans mostly support Bath. It would be interesting to see how much regional reach sports teams have. Where do Wasps fan live for example? What rugby teams are popular in North Wales and on the south coast where there are no professional teams?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sat, 14 Nov 2020, 16:58

jservuk wrote:
victorsra wrote:Ok, but what is "popularity"? That's a problematic concept. Play/Practice vs Watch.


That's an interesting question Victor but one that you won't find a satisfactory answer for.


From a commercial/value perspective, TV audience is what counts, then stadium attendance. In other words, you can judge a sports 'popularity' by how much media companies are prepared to pay for rights to its events, and how much customers are willing to pay the media companies to watch.

From a positive engagement angle, active participation is important. A sport can be huge in terms of participation, but if it doesn't have great TV audience it won't register.

I think the report mentioned attempts to combine these and come up with a ranking. You might not agree with it, but it's hard to argue with the method. Or, you can choose to ignore the participation element and insist the viewership and attendance figures are all that count.

My only criticism of this report is the impact of 'spike events' that cause a transient sudden peak in viewership, e.g. curling at the Olympics getting good viewing figures for 2 days every 4 years (or whenever a Briton is doing well), compared to the constant hum of viewership levels sustained throughout the year by football, rugby etc. Difficult to figure out what these spikes mean, and more difficult to derive what the medium-long term impacts is.


Yes, and that's why the idea of a Ranking of sports that put together rugby and swimming is very problematic. Those are very different things, because swimming or running have even different motivations than to play rugby and they are even complementary. Rugby, as a team sport, contact sport, high intensity sport, will always lose to individual, health-oriented activities. One is much easier to do than the other. Depending on the critera, one could argue E-Sports should be included. In fact, what is realy being compared? Leisure, past-time, sports for health, entertainment, social activity....?

It is a bit like asking "which is the most popular beverage on Earth?" Water, definitly :lol:

So, IMO, it is much more logical to only compare team sports.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Immenso » Sun, 15 Nov 2020, 21:17

Congratulations to Argentina on their win over the All Blacks. While I thought I would happen one day now they are regular opponents, never would have picked it in this game with their covid impacted build-up, way worse than in comparison to NZ's impact.

Good for the future of the competition (The TRC) that Argentina have this ticked off now.

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