Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 00:12

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Would you place Ice Hockey as 7th? Or even higher?


Yes at least seventh. And I don't understand how softball and lacrosse are on there, but NFL is not. Maybe the sample size was too small.


130 Universities in the UK, roughly 80 or so have American Football Teams (Clubs) that compete in BUCS governed sports.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 02:57

TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Would you place Ice Hockey as 7th? Or even higher?


Yes at least seventh. And I don't understand how softball and lacrosse are on there, but NFL is not. Maybe the sample size was too small.


130 Universities in the UK, roughly 80 or so have American Football Teams (Clubs) that compete in BUCS governed sports.


Yes, and most universities identity what are their "performance sports", which are the sports they specifically focus on, have extra funding for, and will have scholarships for; and a lot of those will include American Football as one of their performance sports. I don't know why this is the case or who is funding it but it is something I have noticed.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 10:09

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Would you place Ice Hockey as 7th? Or even higher?


Yes at least seventh. And I don't understand how softball and lacrosse are on there, but NFL is not. Maybe the sample size was too small.


130 Universities in the UK, roughly 80 or so have American Football Teams (Clubs) that compete in BUCS governed sports.


Yes, and most universities identity what are their "performance sports", which are the sports they specifically focus on, have extra funding for, and will have scholarships for; and a lot of those will include American Football as one of their performance sports. I don't know why this is the case or who is funding it but it is something I have noticed.


The NFL Academy is heavily involved with the universities that is who they are targeting for the combines and future players that could make the move to the USA, I am not familiar with the intricacies of the program but I know of their involvement and also provide coaching and sessions.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby tryman » Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 18:05

TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Would you place Ice Hockey as 7th? Or even higher?


Yes at least seventh. And I don't understand how softball and lacrosse are on there, but NFL is not. Maybe the sample size was too small.


130 Universities in the UK, roughly 80 or so have American Football Teams (Clubs) that compete in BUCS governed sports.


And I can tell you, from first hand information, out of those 80... 75 are glorified drinking clubs that barely train or play the sport. Similar to GAA clubs in universities in the UK, they have a presence but doesn’t get a huge buy in.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sammo » Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 19:53

tryman wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Would you place Ice Hockey as 7th? Or even higher?


Yes at least seventh. And I don't understand how softball and lacrosse are on there, but NFL is not. Maybe the sample size was too small.



130 Universities in the UK, roughly 80 or so have American Football Teams (Clubs) that compete in BUCS governed sports.


And I can tell you, from first hand information, out of those 80... 75 are glorified drinking clubs that barely train or play the sport. Similar to GAA clubs in universities in the UK, they have a presence but doesn’t get a huge buy in.

Yeah, I played Lacrosse at university in the UK and we were awful, was literally just an excuse to drink. Watched a couple of the American Football team’s games there too, and it was literally just watching both teams go backwards for 4 downs in turns. Was embarrassing.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 21:48

tryman wrote:
And I can tell you, from first hand information, out of those 80... 75 are glorified drinking clubs that barely train or play the sport. Similar to GAA clubs in universities in the UK, they have a presence but doesn’t get a huge buy in.

Sure, but the point that people go out and play American Football in a sanctioned competition shows there is popularity of the sport.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 22:19

This discussion prompted me watch some BUCS American football. I watched UWE vs Leeds Beckett. It was actually really good, once you get over the fact that British people are playing American football.
I think probably the ten teams in the Premier League take it seriously. These are the teams that have it as one of their "performance sports". I am quite sure that is the highest level of American football in Britain. I think, if you put that on TV people would happily watch it. It flows a lot more than NFL. The plays seem longer and there is less time between the plays.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Thomas » Fri, 11 Dec 2020, 23:26

You are right most of them are drinking clubs but a few of the senior division and BUCS take it seriously and the fact they are sanctioned and have sent players over the years to the USA to College and the NFL says something.

The highest level in the UK is the Premier Division and comprises teams from across the entire British Isles.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 12 Dec 2020, 03:23

I think at this stage the BUCS Premier Division has more going for it than the British American Football League Premier Division. I am sure that is where the investment is going and that is where any talent will be found.
I don't think there is any prospect of semi pro or professional American football in the UK but we can have an elite university league.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 12 Dec 2020, 09:25

This cup competition has just been announced for English clubs. 8 groups of 5 or 6 teams. Groups are by geographical location. Teams play home and away in the group stage, before the knockout stage.

https://www.ncarugby.com/announcements/ ... ompetiton/

These are all really good clubs. This has obviously just been arranged specifically for this unusual season. However, this is could be a template for a Heartlands Championship, with pools and conferences.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Tue, 15 Dec 2020, 20:08

A story in today's Telegraph reports that BT Sport has called time on the negotiation for Premiership Rugby TV rights.

This, plus the news from France regarding Football Ligue 1's 1 billion Euro per year deal falling through suggests that any sport betting on bumper TV deals had better think again.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 16 Dec 2020, 02:22

jservuk wrote:A story in today's Telegraph reports that BT Sport has called time on the negotiation for Premiership Rugby TV rights.

This, plus the news from France regarding Football Ligue 1's 1 billion Euro per year deal falling through suggests that any sport betting on bumper TV deals had better think again.


No, they didn't call "time" on the deal. Their offer was rejected.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/spor ... 1608054307

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby tryman » Wed, 16 Dec 2020, 08:09

TheStroBro wrote:
jservuk wrote:A story in today's Telegraph reports that BT Sport has called time on the negotiation for Premiership Rugby TV rights.

This, plus the news from France regarding Football Ligue 1's 1 billion Euro per year deal falling through suggests that any sport betting on bumper TV deals had better think again.


No, they didn't call "time" on the deal. Their offer was rejected.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/spor ... 1608054307


It is indeed better money and believed to be between Amazon, Sky and maybe BT if they come back in with a better deal (which I think they will).

It’s some credit to the premiership that they even command the same tv deal as the last one in today’s economic environment.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Wed, 16 Dec 2020, 22:11

Do you think the influence of CVC is having an impact on these negotiations ? I dont think it is concidental that the 6Nations are looking to sell their rights and the Pro league rights are coming up for renewal next season when Premier Sports are already struggling financially.

Will CVC be looking for a single distributor who can cover the English Premiership , PRO league and possibly the 6 Nations. If that is the case then you are possibly only looking at Amazon or Sky who would be in that position to negotiate for the rights. If it is Sky then you are looking at quite a package when they have a lot of the Southern Hemisphere rugby as well.

Would Sky be trying to promote rugby the same way they have done with the English Premiership

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 23 Dec 2020, 16:33

There you are, PRO16 and Rainbow Cup https://www.pro14.rugby/latest/pro14/gu ... uper-teams

BTW, Rainbow Cup was the name of a competition proposed (and confirmed for a while!) in 2005 with 24 teams from exactly these 5 countries. Remember? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/4533261.stm

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 23 Dec 2020, 17:13

victorsra wrote:There you are, PRO16 and Rainbow Cup https://www.pro14.rugby/latest/pro14/gu ... uper-teams

BTW, Rainbow Cup was the name of a competition proposed (and confirmed for a while!) in 2005 with 24 teams from exactly these 5 countries. Remember? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/4533261.stm


I love it. It's a good format.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 23 Dec 2020, 17:21

But what will be 2021-22 PRO16's format?

I guess 4 groups of 4, 18 rounds (6 in the group, 12 inter-group) + playoffs?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Wed, 23 Dec 2020, 19:02

victorsra wrote:But what will be 2021-22 PRO16's format?

I guess 4 groups of 4, 18 rounds (6 in the group, 12 inter-group) + playoffs?


Have heard thats in line with what Martin Anayi has said the past. The intention is that with more teams you can play less games, but have higher quality matches. My understanding is that if you have less games which overlap the international windows you can more of the bigger name players playing.

To be honest though , I dont see them stopping at 16 teams think there will be periodoc growth for the next decade

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 16:13

tryman wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
jservuk wrote:A story in today's Telegraph reports that BT Sport has called time on the negotiation for Premiership Rugby TV rights.

This, plus the news from France regarding Football Ligue 1's 1 billion Euro per year deal falling through suggests that any sport betting on bumper TV deals had better think again.


No, they didn't call "time" on the deal. Their offer was rejected.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/spor ... 1608054307


It is indeed better money and believed to be between Amazon, Sky and maybe BT if they come back in with a better deal (which I think they will).

It’s some credit to the premiership that they even command the same tv deal as the last one in today’s economic environment.


So, there ended up being no other deal. The PRL went back to BT, I suppose like a beggar, and BT said ok, but we're getting a discount. It went from 120M/3-years to 110M/3-years.

Rebus wrote:Do you think the influence of CVC is having an impact on these negotiations ? I dont think it is concidental that the 6Nations are looking to sell their rights and the Pro league rights are coming up for renewal next season when Premier Sports are already struggling financially.

Will CVC be looking for a single distributor who can cover the English Premiership , PRO league and possibly the 6 Nations. If that is the case then you are possibly only looking at Amazon or Sky who would be in that position to negotiate for the rights. If it is Sky then you are looking at quite a package when they have a lot of the Southern Hemisphere rugby as well.

Would Sky be trying to promote rugby the same way they have done with the English Premiership


I think the folks that made the deal thought there may be some leverage they could achieve using some of CVC's commercial people to help the properties they were about to invest into. However, the PRL, PRO14, 6 Nations, have the highest paid commercial officers in Rugby. They don't need help selling the product they have, they have the relationships already and they know the value.

However, everyone needed a capital infusion before the pandemic and of course they were going to agree to ToS during the pandemic. But now, CVC is just another mouth to feed at the commercial rights table. CVC gets a massive chunk of the PRL, Pro Whatever, and 6 Nations commercial rights. Which they will then extract value from and profit, although they sold F1 at "loss" that's not really what happened. They extracted a couple billion in profit well over what they paid and sold just at a lesser value than originally because there wasn't another buyer.


________

Also, who the hell decided to admit four SARU provinces which are all broke!?!

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 16:49

TheStroBro wrote:Which they will then extract value from and profit, although they sold F1 at "loss" that's not really what happened. They extracted a couple billion in profit well over what they paid and sold just at a lesser value than originally because there wasn't another buyer.

Indeed:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ormula-one

What this article doesn't mention (it's signed by guy well-known for kissing Bernie Ecclestone's d***) is the fact they barely invested anything and new owners, Liberty Media, had to face a complete overhaul of the business and the sport they are still working on.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 16:58

TheStroBro wrote:So, there ended up being no other deal. The PRL went back to BT, I suppose like a beggar, and BT said ok, but we're getting a discount. It went from 120M/3-years to 110M/3-years.


The previous deal was signed in 2014, not 2017, link here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/31902745.

That was thought to be for £200m over 6 years, or £100m over three to pro rata it down. The amount was never officially revealed. The increased deal was not enough to cover CVC's slice but did increase.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 17:39

Also, who the hell decided to admit four SARU provinces which are all broke!?!


They replaced two franchises even worse by South Africa's four most popular franchises.

Ireland + Wales + Scotland = 15 million people. Not all of them rugby fans. But there is also a fraction of Italian rugby fans (defintily not all Italian rugby fans, as those teams don't represent all Italian rugby) and the diasporas.

South Africa has 60 million people. Not all of them are rugby fans, obviously, and not all rugby fans will be represent (ask around in Bloemfontein). But it wouldn't be mad to claim PRO16 might simply double the number of fans. Of course, South African currency and economy is not like UK/Ireland. Plus the Irish will finaly have opposition in the title battle.

For only two extra teams, it seems a pretty good deal.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby jservuk » Thu, 24 Dec 2020, 22:29

TheStroBro wrote:So, there ended up being no other deal. The PRL went back to BT, I suppose like a beggar, and BT said ok, but we're getting a discount. It went from 120M/3-years to 110M/3-years.



Where is the source for this news?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 25 Dec 2020, 23:19

jservuk wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:So, there ended up being no other deal. The PRL went back to BT, I suppose like a beggar, and BT said ok, but we're getting a discount. It went from 120M/3-years to 110M/3-years.



Where is the source for this news?


Link is above from the Sunday Times stating that the 40M bid was rejected. Other reports said BT was walking away. And now we have a deal with BT getting it at a discount.

victorsra wrote:
Also, who the hell decided to admit four SARU provinces which are all broke!?!


They replaced two franchises even worse by South Africa's four most popular franchises.

Ireland + Wales + Scotland = 15 million people. Not all of them rugby fans. But there is also a fraction of Italian rugby fans (defintily not all Italian rugby fans, as those teams don't represent all Italian rugby) and the diasporas.

South Africa has 60 million people. Not all of them are rugby fans, obviously, and not all rugby fans will be represent (ask around in Bloemfontein). But it wouldn't be mad to claim PRO16 might simply double the number of fans. Of course, South African currency and economy is not like UK/Ireland. Plus the Irish will finaly have opposition in the title battle.

For only two extra teams, it seems a pretty good deal.


I have no idea what the stakeholder unions think they're doing by adding South African provinces. South African franchises have not attempted to increase their match day revenue which is a key to sustainability and their financial ability to keep their best domestic players. The financial pressure that they're under is tremendous. I'm not sure this competition will be more valuable to Super Sport than Super Rugby was. I know that whatever increase in TV Rights that does occur will be far outstripped by the travel costs of this competition.

Then you get into the punters, the vast majority of fans want nothing of this. The South African fans want New Zealand teams to play against.

Now add to the fact that their currency is under so much pressure. 1 euro: 17.76 Rand. 1 GBP: 19.46 Rand.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sat, 26 Dec 2020, 22:25

South Afirca had 14% of the teams and now it will be 25%. But those teams will probably mean the whole league seeing the number of fans doubling. Even if most of those fans are poorer, due to Rand's value. And the product (the games) will be better. One must be mad to reject that deal.

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