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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 16:42

Not true. Rugby has plenty space to grow in Northern France and among Black South Africans, for exemple. Argentina is a bit saturated in fact, the question there is only how to draw their interest on amateur club rugby to professional rugby.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby 4N » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 17:13

thatrugbyguy wrote:We don't know what the world will be like in 20 years so it's hard to say. Ask yourself this though - who are the most popular sports stars in the world these days? Does sport even have the big names it did 25 years ago? There's a lot of good talent, but there who are the personalities these days? Today, most athletes are media trained, coached to give the most boring responses. Are there any real outspoken sports stars anymore? I cannot think of many. Rugby has a huge problem in that there are no personalities anymore in the game. I remember David Campese ignoring the haka and calling out the opposition prior to the big game 30 years ago. No-one does this anymore. There's no drama anymore. Sport is not just sport it's also entertainment. And like entertainment it thrives when there are characters, good guys and bad guys, us vs them, when there's a story to tell. Queensland v New South Wales should be the biggest game on the domestic rugby calendar, but it passes by these days without anyone even noticing. At RWC 2003 New Zealand and Tonga each did each others war dances at the same time in Brisbane, the crowd went crazy because it was like two tribes about to do battle. Then WR decided that teams couldn't do that anymore, and imposed a 10m rule to separate the teams. The hype that type of thing brings was killed because some people thought it was disrespectful. The problem is the majority love that drama, and the drama is what's missing. The theatre of sport no longer exists.


There’s some truth in what you’re saying about personalities but I also think Wallabies results have had an impact. Rugby was on a high in Australia in the late 90s-early 2000s when they were winning
and then probably hit all-time lows in recent years. The sport as a whole benefits from a strong Wallabies brand and a more competitive Bledisloe so hopefully things can rebound there. I think you will see some of the emotion and a sense of anticipation return if results improve.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 20:05

Amateur rugby union is popular right across England. But I do think professional rugby could be expanded into more areas. I think there is potential for Premiership teams in:

South Yorkshire. Rugby league has won the battle of the codes in West Yorkshire, but South Yorkshire is still up for grabs.

Cornwall. The Cornish are a rugby loving nation. For years there has been talk of a stadium for Cornwall.

Reading. With London Irish moving to West London, England's biggest town is now without a professional rugby team.

South East London. Rugby has a long history here. Blackheath is one of the oldest rugby clubs in the world.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Tue, 23 Jun 2020, 21:30

Any chance of Wasps selling Ricoh Stadium back to Coventry City FC and returning to London? I saw QPR will move away from the Loftud Road, where the Wasps used to play until 2002. It is a pretty perfect stadium for rugby, although it is more likely QPR will sell it to be demolished...
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 02:55

victorsra wrote:Any chance of Wasps selling Ricoh Stadium back to Coventry City FC and returning to London? I saw QPR will move away from the Loftud Road, where the Wasps used to play until 2002. It is a pretty perfect stadium for rugby, although it is more likely QPR will sell it to be demolished...


I don't think Wasps would move back to London. I didn't know about QPR leaving Loftus Road. That would be perfect for rugby. It's a nice stadium and it would be a shame if it was demolished. It is too small for football but just right for rugby. If any investor wanted to take a West London club into the Premiership this is an opportunity. Unfortunately I don't think anyone is going to do that. I liked it when there were 4 London clubs but I don't see that happening again. Land is so expensive in London and rugby isn't that rich.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 02:59

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Any chance of Wasps selling Ricoh Stadium back to Coventry City FC and returning to London? I saw QPR will move away from the Loftud Road, where the Wasps used to play until 2002. It is a pretty perfect stadium for rugby, although it is more likely QPR will sell it to be demolished...


I don't think Wasps would move back to London. I didn't know about QPR leaving Loftus Road. That would be perfect for rugby. It's a nice stadium and it would be a shame if it was demolished. It is too small for football but just right for rugby. If any investor wanted to take a West London club into the Premiership this is an opportunity. Unfortunately I don't think anyone is going to do that. I liked it when there were 4 London clubs but I don't see that happening again. Land is so expensive in London and rugby isn't that rich.


However, if a billionaire from Russia, China or Middle East needed somewhere to store some wealth, this would be a good opportunity.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 09:34

RugbyLiebe wrote:
I can't say anything about rugby as it wasn't more than an obscurity in my kid and teenager years. As for soccer, I can say that there are no "types" anymore, but the undoubtely biggest soccer stars (and probably best players as well) of all time are active at this moment with Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi. I don't like them and prefer those beer-drinking, smoking, bullshit saying types of former times as well, but that doesn't mean they are not a thing for the kids nowaday.

I reckon you fall a bit for the classic, everything was bigger as a kid or even young adult thing here. Its not bad to fall for it, but often this doesn't hold up very good. Rugby's downfall will never be not enough drama, but the closed shops which hinder the novelty of new teams making their mark and the ignorant culture that was built for centuries about everything outside of the top nations in rugby.


Ask yourself this, who is the most prominent player in rugby today? I couldn't tell you because so many players have zero personality today. It's a wide group of skilled athletes but few with any notable personality to their name. The only ones who I can think of are iconically enough both from T2 nations. Artemyev from Russia who's lively personality won him fans during his World Cup interviews, and Juan Manuel Gaminara of Uruguay who's passionate display after their win against Fiji was there for all to see. You don't see anything like that from the top teams. You don't see the same display of emotion from the Wallabies. It's been 20 years since they won the Bledisloe Cup, and not once have I see a Wallaby captain in that time be angry at the fact they haven't won the bloody thing for so long. It's stock, standard "We just weren't good enough today". Where's the Wallaby captain saying "I'm sick and tired of losing to the All Blacks"? No-one says it because they've got to think about the games image, the sponsors, the TV networks, etc. No passion. Is it any wonder the Wallabies haven't won the Bledisloe for nearly 2 decades when no-one can even muster up the energy to say publicly how much they hate losing? Is it any wonder crowds have fallen off?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 09:40

4N wrote:There’s some truth in what you’re saying about personalities but I also think Wallabies results have had an impact. Rugby was on a high in Australia in the late 90s-early 2000s when they were winning
and then probably hit all-time lows in recent years. The sport as a whole benefits from a strong Wallabies brand and a more competitive Bledisloe so hopefully things can rebound there. I think you will see some of the emotion and a sense of anticipation return if results improve.


Oh, it's all linked. There's an acceptance of mediocrity from the top that filters down to the national team.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 09:43

thatrugbyguy wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
I can't say anything about rugby as it wasn't more than an obscurity in my kid and teenager years. As for soccer, I can say that there are no "types" anymore, but the undoubtely biggest soccer stars (and probably best players as well) of all time are active at this moment with Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi. I don't like them and prefer those beer-drinking, smoking, bullshit saying types of former times as well, but that doesn't mean they are not a thing for the kids nowaday.

I reckon you fall a bit for the classic, everything was bigger as a kid or even young adult thing here. Its not bad to fall for it, but often this doesn't hold up very good. Rugby's downfall will never be not enough drama, but the closed shops which hinder the novelty of new teams making their mark and the ignorant culture that was built for centuries about everything outside of the top nations in rugby.


Ask yourself this, who is the most prominent player in rugby today? I couldn't tell you because so many players have zero personality today. It's a wide group of skilled athletes but few with any notable personality to their name. The only ones who I can think of are iconically enough both from T2 nations. Artemyev from Russia who's lively personality won him fans during his World Cup interviews, and Juan Manuel Gaminara of Uruguay who's passionate display after their win against Fiji was there for all to see. You don't see anything like that from the top teams. You don't see the same display of emotion from the Wallabies. It's been 20 years since they won the Bledisloe Cup, and not once have I see a Wallaby captain in that time be angry at the fact they haven't won the bloody thing for so long. It's stock, standard "We just weren't good enough today". Where's the Wallaby captain saying "I'm sick and tired of losing to the All Blacks"? No-one says it because they've got to think about the games image, the sponsors, the TV networks, etc. No passion. Is it any wonder the Wallabies haven't won the Bledisloe for nearly 2 decades when no-one can even muster up the energy to say publicly how much they hate losing? Is it any wonder crowds have fallen off?


To be honest, there was only one rugby player that was really really really prominent, and that's Jonah Lomu and (Matt Damon ;) ). For someone who didn't follow rugby at all until the mid to late 2000s there is nobody else.
From today's players in the "rugby prominence) there are more than you think, that are a kind of type, even in Australia James O'Connor, the Honeybadger, Israel Folau (he is one of those). But was rugby ever a sport to really produce those standout players and market them? I think rugby has always been the team sport, where single players are cherished the least. Australia has apparently been content enough in losing. I don't think that's a problem of our time though, but of Australian rugby.

About the most prominent rugby player: I would say Sonny Bill Williams and Dan Carter are still quite big. Faf de Klerk is seen as a type.
Unlike soccer, rugby's best players do not play on one single continent in their prime, so it is also tougher to get a higher profile.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 09:47, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 09:46

victorsra wrote:Not true. Rugby has plenty space to grow in Northern France and among Black South Africans, for exemple. Argentina is a bit saturated in fact, the question there is only how to draw their interest on amateur club rugby to professional rugby.


Whilst this is true in theory the reality is some areas for cultural reasons will always support some sports more than others.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 09:49

Btw. as I just mentioned Matt Damon. Today is exactly 25 years since the Springboks lifted the Trophy for winning RWC 1995.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 12:25

victorsra wrote:Any chance of Wasps selling Ricoh Stadium back to Coventry City FC and returning to London? I saw QPR will move away from the Loftud Road, where the Wasps used to play until 2002. It is a pretty perfect stadium for rugby, although it is more likely QPR will sell it to be demolished...



No. More likely is that they cannot refinance the bond used to buy stadium in May 2022 and are forced to sell then go bust, or they default on the bond and the same, on that note despite all the claims of no money in the Premiership Wasps did pay their 6 monthly interest bill of over £1m in May.

Their old amateur arm still plays in their old part of London but that is a separate club now. Loftus Road was not really a perfect stadium for rugby, the pitch was too small, and the stands leave a lot to be desired. Even from my perspective as a regular at football and rugby over the decades it is near the bottom to be honest!

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 12:53

sk 88 wrote:
victorsra wrote:Any chance of Wasps selling Ricoh Stadium back to Coventry City FC and returning to London? I saw QPR will move away from the Loftud Road, where the Wasps used to play until 2002. It is a pretty perfect stadium for rugby, although it is more likely QPR will sell it to be demolished...



No. More likely is that they cannot refinance the bond used to buy stadium in May 2022 and are forced to sell then go bust, or they default on the bond and the same, on that note despite all the claims of no money in the Premiership Wasps did pay their 6 monthly interest bill of over £1m in May.

Their old amateur arm still plays in their old part of London but that is a separate club now. Loftus Road was not really a perfect stadium for rugby, the pitch was too small, and the stands leave a lot to be desired. Even from my perspective as a regular at football and rugby over the decades it is near the bottom to be honest!


In that case it will be sold to developers for housing.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 24 Jun 2020, 16:51

Sad, because the Wasps would be the best brand to cause impact in London if they had found a better stadium there. Wasps was the first London club to win an European Cup in any sport I guess.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 25 Jun 2020, 14:57

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
victorsra wrote:Any chance of Wasps selling Ricoh Stadium back to Coventry City FC and returning to London? I saw QPR will move away from the Loftud Road, where the Wasps used to play until 2002. It is a pretty perfect stadium for rugby, although it is more likely QPR will sell it to be demolished...



No. More likely is that they cannot refinance the bond used to buy stadium in May 2022 and are forced to sell then go bust, or they default on the bond and the same, on that note despite all the claims of no money in the Premiership Wasps did pay their 6 monthly interest bill of over £1m in May.

Their old amateur arm still plays in their old part of London but that is a separate club now. Loftus Road was not really a perfect stadium for rugby, the pitch was too small, and the stands leave a lot to be desired. Even from my perspective as a regular at football and rugby over the decades it is near the bottom to be honest!


In that case it will be sold to developers for housing.


Do you mean Loftus Road or Ricoh?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 25 Jun 2020, 15:24

sk 88 wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
victorsra wrote:Any chance of Wasps selling Ricoh Stadium back to Coventry City FC and returning to London? I saw QPR will move away from the Loftud Road, where the Wasps used to play until 2002. It is a pretty perfect stadium for rugby, although it is more likely QPR will sell it to be demolished...



No. More likely is that they cannot refinance the bond used to buy stadium in May 2022 and are forced to sell then go bust, or they default on the bond and the same, on that note despite all the claims of no money in the Premiership Wasps did pay their 6 monthly interest bill of over £1m in May.

Their old amateur arm still plays in their old part of London but that is a separate club now. Loftus Road was not really a perfect stadium for rugby, the pitch was too small, and the stands leave a lot to be desired. Even from my perspective as a regular at football and rugby over the decades it is near the bottom to be honest!


In that case it will be sold to developers for housing.


Do you mean Loftus Road or Ricoh?


Loftus Road will be sold to developers for housing. Ricoh is here to stay.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 25 Jun 2020, 16:54

Yes agree.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 25 Jun 2020, 19:34

RugbyLiebe wrote: But was rugby ever a sport to really produce those standout players and market them? I think rugby has always been the team sport, where single players are cherished the least.

Exactly. See Argentina, where it's considered bad taste for players to collect the shirts of each team they play, as people think that shirts belong to the clubs or the national team. The shirts don't even have the players names.

However, some South Americans could consider Perry Baker a star. Fox Sports announcer Rulo Taquini focused on him, and sung his name every time he sprinted for a quick try. And he spent a lot of time promoting the hashtag #QuieroLaDePerry (I want Perry's shirt).

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 26 Jun 2020, 18:09

NaBUru38 wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote: But was rugby ever a sport to really produce those standout players and market them? I think rugby has always been the team sport, where single players are cherished the least.

Exactly. See Argentina, where it's considered bad taste for players to collect the shirts of each team they play, as people think that shirts belong to the clubs or the national team. The shirts don't even have the players names.

However, some South Americans could consider Perry Baker a star. Fox Sports announcer Rulo Taquini focused on him, and sung his name every time he sprinted for a quick try. And he spent a lot of time promoting the hashtag #QuieroLaDePerry (I want Perry's shirt).


Realy? Didn't know that. We don't have this problem here. People in Brazil love shirts collections...
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby ThreePears » Sat, 27 Jun 2020, 23:41

The game has plenty of room to grow in the UK but it won’t. Unfortunately

1- the club game is run by the 13 clubs with P shares who have no desire to share the wealth.
2- the game is seen by most as a game for the privately educated.
3- as a live event it just doesn’t have much going for it.

It also isn’t a cool sport to follow and to be honest the atmosphere at live domestic games is largely poor. Kids like to be loud and chant and sing at sports in England and there are loads who see the tribal element of sport as a pull. In english club rugby, there is very little of this and whereas im not suggesting the sport needs to have football levels of tribalism, the respect rhetoric in rugby is rammed down the punters throats at any given opportunity to the point where the fun is sucked out of the occasion. This is done to the extent that you are now literally told to be quiet for the kicker in grounds There aren’t many sports where the atmosphere is actively killed after the most significant score in the game.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Hernan14 » Sun, 28 Jun 2020, 02:16

NaBUru38 wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote: But was rugby ever a sport to really produce those standout players and market them? I think rugby has always been the team sport, where single players are cherished the least.

Exactly. See Argentina, where it's considered bad taste for players to collect the shirts of each team they play, as people think that shirts belong to the clubs or the national team. The shirts don't even have the players names.

However, some South Americans could consider Perry Baker a star. Fox Sports announcer Rulo Taquini focused on him, and sung his name every time he sprinted for a quick try. And he spent a lot of time promoting the hashtag #QuieroLaDePerry (I want Perry's shirt).


It's not because of bad taste ... players in the Clubs pay for their own jerseys. Many players of the Pumas change their jerseys, perhaps not on the field, but later..."The shirts don't even have the players names" but have sponsor, something unimaginable in the football national team.

Perry Baker is definitely not considered a star here, you are very naïve, that hashtag thing is something common in the TV, they get a jersey and they raffle it among those who use the hashtag, something common on sports television, and in the case of a program that transmits sevens, obviously the jersey will be from sevens players.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 29 Jun 2020, 05:10

victorsra wrote:Any chance of Wasps selling Ricoh Stadium back to Coventry City FC and returning to London? I saw QPR will move away from the Loftud Road, where the Wasps used to play until 2002. It is a pretty perfect stadium for rugby, although it is more likely QPR will sell it to be demolished...


Where would Coventry City FC find the money to purchase the Ricoh from Wasps? Coventry City FC never owned it, it was held jointly by Coventry Council and a Charity before Wasps purchased it. Coventry FC now play in Birmingham because they couldn't figure out how to get a deal with Wasps. Coventry went through a bankruptcy not too long ago as well.

Apparently England, Scotland, and Wales, will all cut their programs and merge permanently to Team GB.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby theDarky » Mon, 29 Jun 2020, 09:07

TheStroBro wrote:Apparently England, Scotland, and Wales, will all cut their programs and merge permanently to Team GB.


What ? source ?

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 29 Jun 2020, 09:13


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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 29 Jun 2020, 10:34

Armchair Fan wrote:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/england-wales-and-scotland-sevens-teams-set-to-merge-permanently-into-great-britain-side-3kmjrd5rr


That makes sense for sevens with it being an Olympic sport. That will also free up a couple of other spaces in sevens tournaments for teams like Japan and Germany.
I personally am in favour of this. There's something special about a Team GB.

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