Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Posts: 7456
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sat, 04 Jul 2020, 21:59

Are they keeping the place to wait for independence? :P i'm serious, maybe this is a factor, for people that support independence it is important to keep the team. But the question is: how many people care about the sevens team? Those 2 places are too precious for T2 countries that rely on Olympic money....
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 04 Jul 2020, 22:17

victorsra wrote:Are they keeping the place to wait for independence? :P i'm serious, maybe this is a factor, for people that support independence it is important to keep the team. But the question is: how many people care about the sevens team? Those 2 places are too precious for T2 countries that rely on Olympic money....


If they wanted independence they should have voted for it in their referendum. We can't just keep having referendums every year.

Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 04 Jul 2020, 22:30

I don't think it's the appropriate place to discuss this, but as much as I despise the scenario of multiple referenda until the right outcome happens I'd say terms of agreement have changed quite a bit since...

Posts: 7456
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sat, 04 Jul 2020, 22:54

Well, they almost did. If basicaly half of them wanted independence, this is something SRU must deal with and the end of the sevens teams would angry many (and many that until now were giving a damn for the sevens team... funny :roll: ). As much as I defend they should merge, I do understand what's politicaly behind. But, being pragmatic, the sevens wastes their money now, because they can't be in the Olympics and they already have the 15s team for national pride.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 685
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Sun, 05 Jul 2020, 12:46

victorsra wrote:The argument that Welsh sevens team is important to develop years is not that convincing because Wales already has more PRO14 teams that they can sustain.... if they were all performing like the Irish teams they could argue that. But never did.

In the other hand, Scotland may justify the sevens with this argument as they only have 2 PRO14 teams....


Players have gone on from the Wales 7s side to become regional regulars though. Owen Jenkins at the Dragons, Luke Morgan and Sam Cross at the Ospreys, Jason Harries (via playing XVs for London Scottish and Edinburgh admittedly) at the Blues were all 7s players for yesrs who then went on to earn regional contracts. Cross (who has an Olympic medal with GB) and Morgan even got capped by the senior XVs side, though retrospectively both those picks seem extremely premature. International XVs players Justin Tipuric, Rhys Webb and James Davies (another Olympic medallist) also played a lot of 7s earlier in their careers, although they are XVs players primarily. So it *does* seem to serve a developmental function, keeping some players playing at a high level who would otherwise be lost to the system.

Doesn't mean it's the best way to do that of course, and they are all wingers or flankers, both of which Wales has in abundance.

Posts: 685
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Sun, 05 Jul 2020, 12:52

victorsra wrote:Are they keeping the place to wait for independence? :P i'm serious, maybe this is a factor, for people that support independence it is important to keep the team. But the question is: how many people care about the sevens team? Those 2 places are too precious for T2 countries that rely on Olympic money....


It's certainly the case that most independence supporters in Scotland and Wales won't support anything with a British flag on it, especially if it replaced a formerly Scotland/Wales-specific entity. A little different in individual sports like Cycling or Tennis etc. - Andy Murray's competing under British flags has done him no harm - but in a team sport, certainly not.

Speaking for Welsh rugby supporters they don't care about the team, no. I don't know anyone who follows the 7s team nor could even name who's in it, even people with otherwise encyclopaedic knowledge of Welsh rugby. The only time people cared was the Olympics and that wasn't because of the GB branding but just the way the Olympics generally are so massively pushed in the UK (same reason it's the only time people care about Judo, Track and Field etc and all the other stuff).

The development aspect I describe above is always the justification that's rolled out for keeping the orogran. But there are probably people in the WRU who are of the view that having a 7s team is important in its own right for their status as a "rugby nation".

Trouble is all the options are distasteful.
-Keep the status quo and waste money on something nobody really cares about.
-Let England claim to be GB at the Olympics.
-Spend WRU funds on a GB branded team.

Posts: 2327
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 05 Jul 2020, 13:18

As with many long running debates, particularly within rugby, if there was an easy or obvious solution it would have happened by now.

Posts: 7456
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Sun, 05 Jul 2020, 14:01

If very few people follow sevens, the onus of changing is relative. Probably there will be a lot a complain in the moment of the decision and in a short time most people will forget because they don't follow sevens.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 16
Joined: Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 04:38
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 05:01

Now that there is private equity money coming into the 6 nations

https://lastwordonrugby.com/2020/07/05/ ... x-nations/

Where do people think this will lead to for European rugby ? It now looks like a private equity company has a significant stake in the rugby of 5 of the 6 main countries in Europe through investment in the English Premiership , Pro14 and now the 6 nations.

I do not think it will be limited to engineering a bumper pay per view TV deal , looking at how CVC impacted Formula 1 , I do not think this will be good for the development of the game

https://www.racefans.net/2016/09/08/f1- ... erty-mean/

User avatar
Posts: 2351
Joined: Tue, 15 Apr 2014, 18:36
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby iul » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 06:27

It might be good. Perhals they'll decide to sell franchise spots to t2 nations. If a couple of the REC nations offered 600m euro gor a couple of spots would they say no?

Posts: 685
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 07:55

You have to assume that they wouldn't invest so much money - especially in the Pro14, which has struggled to attract fans let alone investors - without some kind of plan to change something. Whether T2 factors into that at all is another question.

Some people on this forum seem to think that setting up a Pro rugby franchise in somewhere like Germany is an obvious business opportunity (build it and they will come etc). The experience of Italy should tell us otherwise. After ten years of top level Franchise rugby and twenty years of the national team competing in the Six Nations the game there is arguably weaker than it was before, and they had the advantage of building on a much more established history of playing rugby than exists in any of the European tier 2 nations.

Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 10:31

Figaro wrote:You have to assume that they wouldn't invest so much money - especially in the Pro14, which has struggled to attract fans let alone investors - without some kind of plan to change something. Whether T2 factors into that at all is another question.

Some people on this forum seem to think that setting up a Pro rugby franchise in somewhere like Germany is an obvious business opportunity (build it and they will come etc). The experience of Italy should tell us otherwise. After ten years of top level Franchise rugby and twenty years of the national team competing in the Six Nations the game there is arguably weaker than it was before, and they had the advantage of building on a much more established history of playing rugby than exists in any of the European tier 2 nations.


I expect them to bring in at least a couple of South African Super Rugby teams. I don't expect any new teams or new countries to be added.

Posts: 685
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 11:20

Depends on what happens in Super Rugby I suppose. I can't see more teams from the existing countries besides South Africa added unless the profitability of the competition increases substantially first.

If super Rugby folds I'd expect all the South african teams to move north, unless the idea is to merge with the English premiership (seems very unlikely).

Firstly I think they will just want to get the schedule right to reduce the conflict with the international game, maybe reduce the number of games.

Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 12:16

Figaro wrote:Depends on what happens in Super Rugby I suppose. I can't see more teams from the existing countries besides South Africa added unless the profitability of the competition increases substantially first.

If super Rugby folds I'd expect all the South african teams to move north, unless the idea is to merge with the English premiership (seems very unlikely).

Firstly I think they will just want to get the schedule right to reduce the conflict with the international game, maybe reduce the number of games.


Reduce the number of games and reduce travel, so teams are not traveling thousands of miles for a low quality match. The British teams might want to add an A team league to replace those sort of games so the squad players are still getting a game when internationals are on.

Posts: 685
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 12:35

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Figaro wrote:Depends on what happens in Super Rugby I suppose. I can't see more teams from the existing countries besides South Africa added unless the profitability of the competition increases substantially first.

If super Rugby folds I'd expect all the South african teams to move north, unless the idea is to merge with the English premiership (seems very unlikely).

Firstly I think they will just want to get the schedule right to reduce the conflict with the international game, maybe reduce the number of games.


Reduce the number of games and reduce travel, so teams are not traveling thousands of miles for a low quality match. The British teams might want to add an A team league to replace those sort of games so the squad players are still getting a game when internationals are on.


There is already an A-team league (the Celtic cup).

https://www.news24.com/citypress/Sport/ ... n-20200705

"As things stand, there seem to be at least three versions of what the competition could become: a Pro16 with the four Super Rugby franchises replacing the Cheetahs and the Kings; a Pro16 that would see the addition of one of the Super Rugby franchises and the Georgian national team; or a Pro18 that would see all six South African franchises campaign in the tournament."

Not sure what the source is for the above.

The Pro16 with the four super rugby sides is being touted as an option in Wales online.

Posts: 7456
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 13:07

People forget to think about what South Africans want and believe. Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Stormers are the Big4 teams of the country, with history and rivalries between them. "A couple of SAs" mean splitting them. What their fans would think? Is this a good move to angry your own fans killing the matches they love?

It is like to suggest in soccer "oh, send Rangers to England and Celtic keeps playing in Scotland". "Lets move Porto to Spain, Benfica and Sporting can stay in Portugal". "What about Ajax in Bundesliga while PSV and Feyenoord stay in Netherlands?".
Last edited by victorsra on Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 13:56, edited 1 time in total.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 685
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Figaro » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 13:13

victorsra wrote:People forget to think about what South Africans want and believe. Lions, Bulls, Sharks and Stormers and the Big4 teams of the country, with history and rivalries between them. "A couple of SAs" mean splitting them. What their fans would think? Is this a good move to angry your own fans killing the matches they love?

It is like to suggest in soccer "oh, send Rangers to England and Celtic keeps playing in Scotland". "Lets move Porto to Spain, Benfica can stay in Portugal". "What about Ajax in Bundesliga while PSV stays in Netherlands?".


Yeah the Pro16 with Georgia option seems very unlikely to me.

I am not a fan of Italian or South African involvement in the Pro14 - at least the Celtic League had some kind of concept - but if they have to be there I would rather it be their best teams, and Id like to see the conferences based on country rather than mixed as they are so in that basis I'd probably prefer the Pro18 option.

Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 16:43

I can't see Cheetahs being dropped.

Posts: 7456
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 17:43

Well, PRO14 might cut transcontinental travel as well (pandemics and stuff)
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu, 12 Dec 2019, 21:26
National Flag:
EnglandEngland

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 17:52

victorsra wrote:Well, PRO14 might cut transcontinental travel as well (pandemics and stuff)


Yes it could go back to Pro12. That competition is pretty flexible.

Posts: 7456
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 19:44

I hope the age of transcontinental leagues is over, honestly. It is not racional.

It can give space to transcontinental Champions Cup-models, but a whole league is not ok...
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 5849
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 03:35


Posts: 16
Joined: Mon, 06 Jul 2020, 04:38
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 04:52

If that is the case , expect to see SA clubs play in the Pro league and SA to play in an expanded 6 Nations competition very shortly

Posts: 38
Joined: Mon, 21 Jan 2019, 10:39
National Flag:
IrelandIreland

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tiernster » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 19:45

A team from the Pacific would be one huge upside.

Could South Africa sustain their own league if teams were qualifying to a champions cup, may be a more sustainable approach then going fully into pro 14

Posts: 7456
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 19:54

The question about SA is if they'd be able to retain the Boks or not. But they are already losing them, so....

If we avoid transcontinental leagues, the Currie Cup could be rationalized indeed. Maybe 14 professional teams is too much for South African economy. They could do a sustainable strong 10-teams league for sure, merging the minor provinces. Lions, Bulls, Sharks, Stormers, Cheetahs, Kings, Griquas, Leopards/Griffons, Pumas/Falcons and Boland/Eagles, for exemple. Something like this. And start building foundations to have Namibia, Kenya...

This would mean a strong 18-rounds + playoffs league, with few Springboks, probably, but good enough to keep producing talent. More or less what happens with South American soccer.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests