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Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tiernster » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 20:44

Indeed and could survive with access to champions cup and challenge cup.

Any thoughts on pacific franchise proposal

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 20:57

But the South American soccer analogy is problematic. Let's see. Brazil won FIFA WC in 1958, 1962 and 1970 while Argentina won it in 1978 with home-based squads (same for 1930, 1950 Uruguay). All our soccer legends played in our clubs. Argentina won the 1986 WC with 3 players in Europe, all the rest still in Argentine clubs. But the 80s started to experience the exodus of South American players, intensified in the 1990s. Brazil won the 1994 WC with a half-half scenario, half of the squad playing in Brazil, half in Europe.

The last time a South American won the FIFA WC was Brazil in 2002, still with a half-half situation (13 players from Brazilian clubs, 10 from European clubs... but those 10 were the key players).

In the 2000s and 2010s almost the whole Brazilian and Argentine squads were based abroad and we won nothing. I don't believe this is the key factor of our lack of success, but it is intriguing.

The same thing could pass in SA and NZ minds: is it safe for the future of All Blacks and Springboks to rely on Europe/Japan-based players?
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 20:59

Rebus wrote:If that is the case , expect to see SA clubs play in the Pro league and SA to play in an expanded 6 Nations competition very shortly


The article only suggests that South Africa in Super Rugby is dead. It’s possible that they can still play on a Southern Hemisphere test schedule, or if the global calendar actually happens then they don’t really need to do anything.

Either way, SA can stay with TRC and suffer with player losses in August/September but then be at full strength in February/March during 6N.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Rebus » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 21:14

Although the article referred to the clubs leaving Super Rugby , I cannot see a country having its clubs in one competition and its national team playing against teams from another structure.

It could only work if you had an aligned global calendar otherwise your clubs and key players are not available at the optimal times dring the club season

If your clubs move to a European season , then I can see there being an expansion of the 6 nations to accomodate SA. Its a win-win for all involved. You get top level SA clubs and players which improves the Pro14 competition , you have better TV rights which financially improves the participants ,commercially the SA nation would benefit from being part of the expanded nations and the time zones are almost the same so player welfare is assisted and TV games are shown at more accessible times and there is less pressure from SA players to play in Europe. If the clubs and national team are all playing a European season , does it matter which league they are playing in ? They will all be available when SA play their international matches. Sure SA wont play NZ as regularly , but they will be playing all the other top nations on an annual basis.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 21:33

The problem is to keep with transcontinental leagues.... in the post-pandemics world, I think everybody will realise this is a vulnerable risky way to build your project on.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 21:35

victorsra wrote:The question about SA is if they'd be able to retain the Boks or not. But they are already losing them, so....

If we avoid transcontinental leagues, the Currie Cup could be rationalized indeed. Maybe 14 professional teams is too much for South African economy. They could do a sustainable strong 10-teams league for sure, merging the minor provinces. Lions, Bulls, Sharks, Stormers, Cheetahs, Kings, Griquas, Leopards/Griffons, Pumas/Falcons and Boland/Eagles, for exemple. Something like this. And start building foundations to have Namibia, Kenya...

This would mean a strong 18-rounds + playoffs league, with few Springboks, probably, but good enough to keep producing talent. More or less what happens with South American soccer.


I think if South Africa had its own Premiership it would be 8 teams: Blue Bulls, Lions, Sharks, Stormers, Cheetahs, Kings, Pumas, Griquas.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Wed, 08 Jul 2020, 21:53

If they manage to merge their second division provinces (if not a traumatic process), they could have 10, that would offer a bigger fixture. Boland and Eagles, Pumas and Falcons, Leopards and Griffons are all neighbours. How big is the rivalry? Big enough to make the merger not viable?

A recent positive merge was seen in NZ, when Nelson and Marlborough joint forces to create Tasman Makos, that won the Mitre10 Cup in 2018...
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 09 Jul 2020, 03:36

victorsra wrote:If they manage to merge their second division provinces (if not a traumatic process), they could have 10, that would offer a bigger fixture. Boland and Eagles, Pumas and Falcons, Leopards and Griffons are all neighbours. How big is the rivalry? Big enough to make the merger not viable?

A recent positive merge was seen in NZ, when Nelson and Marlborough joint forces to create Tasman Makos, that won the Mitre10 Cup in 2018...


I don't think you could merge those teams. They are from different provinces. Pumas represents a whole province. There's no need to merge that with another team. Falcons probably has potential to grow and be another professional team in the future. I mean if they wanted to grow the South African Premiership in the future that could be an opportunity. Leopards and Griffons are from quite low population areas, again in different provinces.
Boland and Pumas could potentially be merged. They are both in rural Afrikaans speaking Western Cape. They are culturally quite close. That could work as a provincial team, a bit like Munster which plays from 2 homes. So the 9th and 10th teams could be Falcons from Gauteng, and a rural Western Cape team.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 09 Jul 2020, 05:19

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:If they manage to merge their second division provinces (if not a traumatic process), they could have 10, that would offer a bigger fixture. Boland and Eagles, Pumas and Falcons, Leopards and Griffons are all neighbours. How big is the rivalry? Big enough to make the merger not viable?

A recent positive merge was seen in NZ, when Nelson and Marlborough joint forces to create Tasman Makos, that won the Mitre10 Cup in 2018...


I don't think you could merge those teams. They are from different provinces. Pumas represents a whole province. There's no need to merge that with another team. Falcons probably has potential to grow and be another professional team in the future. I mean if they wanted to grow the South African Premiership in the future that could be an opportunity. Leopards and Griffons are from quite low population areas, again in different provinces.
Boland and Pumas could potentially be merged. They are both in rural Afrikaans speaking Western Cape. They are culturally quite close. That could work as a provincial team, a bit like Munster which plays from 2 homes. So the 9th and 10th teams could be Falcons from Gauteng, and a rural Western Cape team.


Don't you mean Boland and the Eagles? The Pumas are from Nelspruit. On the other side of the country.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 09 Jul 2020, 06:48

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:If they manage to merge their second division provinces (if not a traumatic process), they could have 10, that would offer a bigger fixture. Boland and Eagles, Pumas and Falcons, Leopards and Griffons are all neighbours. How big is the rivalry? Big enough to make the merger not viable?

A recent positive merge was seen in NZ, when Nelson and Marlborough joint forces to create Tasman Makos, that won the Mitre10 Cup in 2018...


I don't think you could merge those teams. They are from different provinces. Pumas represents a whole province. There's no need to merge that with another team. Falcons probably has potential to grow and be another professional team in the future. I mean if they wanted to grow the South African Premiership in the future that could be an opportunity. Leopards and Griffons are from quite low population areas, again in different provinces.
Boland and Pumas could potentially be merged. They are both in rural Afrikaans speaking Western Cape. They are culturally quite close. That could work as a provincial team, a bit like Munster which plays from 2 homes. So the 9th and 10th teams could be Falcons from Gauteng, and a rural Western Cape team.


Don't you mean Boland and the Eagles? The Pumas are from Nelspruit. On the other side of the country.


Thank you, yes. That's what I meant. Maybe that is a way they could sustain a top level team.
Pumas are already popular and draw support across Mpumulanga.
Falcons are in Gauteng and presumably have ambition to grow judging by their partnership with Malaysia.
I think these are the teams that could be added to a South African Premiership, along with Griquas.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 09 Jul 2020, 13:37

These are all neighbour unions. It would be like creating new franchises, exactly what Super Rugby did in the past. Remember Kings was born out of Elephants+Bulldogs+Eagles. The PRO14 /Super Rugby Cheetahs is NOT the Free State Cheetahs, it is Cheetahs+Griquas+Griffons. The same way the old Cats had Lions and Cheetahs together. It was recently said that the current 14 teams aren't sustainable as professional teams.

Btw, remember those current 14 teams were created in the 1990s. SA has more than 20 provinces and merged them in the professional era. NZ in the other hand kept the minor provinces as amateur teams in the Heartland Championship. Maybe this would br a logical move.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby SSJ YUSUKE » Thu, 09 Jul 2020, 14:21

The current boundries of the South African provincial system are out of date and should be changed to reflect the current provinces, this would make more sense in terms of organizing club competitions and having fewer teams in an economically constrained enviroment. Like seriously some Unions were formed before South Africa was even formed. The Free State and Transvaal were independnent republics. The other provinces are based on old districts that stopped being used 100 years ago
I would have
Western Cape-WP, Boland and SWD
Eastern Cape- EP and Border
KZN- Sharks
Free State- FS and Griffons
Northern Cape- Griquas
NW- Leopards
Mpumalanga- Pumas
Gauteng- Lions and Valke
Notherns- Basically the Bulls in Pretoria and Limpopo
Add Namibia to the mix, they might not win but like the sunwolves they would probably benefit from having a team in the South African system.
So 10 team currie cup and club competitions based off real provincial boundries.
Finally I would probably remove the Universities from the club system and make compete purely college based system like in the US. The Varsity cup has put them too far ahead of many club teams

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 09 Jul 2020, 15:56

SSJ YUSUKE wrote:The current boundries of the South African provincial system are out of date and should be changed to reflect the current provinces, this would make more sense in terms of organizing club competitions and having fewer teams in an economically constrained enviroment. Like seriously some Unions were formed before South Africa was even formed. The Free State and Transvaal were independnent republics. The other provinces are based on old districts that stopped being used 100 years ago
I would have
Western Cape-WP, Boland and SWD
Eastern Cape- EP and Border
KZN- Sharks
Free State- FS and Griffons
Northern Cape- Griquas
NW- Leopards
Mpumalanga- Pumas
Gauteng- Lions and Valke
Notherns- Basically the Bulls in Pretoria and Limpopo
Add Namibia to the mix, they might not win but like the sunwolves they would probably benefit from having a team in the South African system.
So 10 team currie cup and club competitions based off real provincial boundries.
Finally I would probably remove the Universities from the club system and make compete purely college based system like in the US. The Varsity cup has put them too far ahead of many club teams


I more or less agree although I do think if Leopards and Welwitschias are included so too should Valke. Gauteng is big enough to have 2 teams. Namibia probably isn't in a position to enter a competitive team.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Thu, 09 Jul 2020, 17:08

We all know Namibia has no money for that.

Isn't it good to have a second Cape team? Boland+Eagles. Like Gauteng has Bulls and Lions.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby cesaraugusto1988 » Thu, 09 Jul 2020, 22:16

I saw the last Super Rugby match between Crusaders vs Highlanders. I think NZ rugby join to Australia and South Africa is the most competictive championship under Profissional era

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby SSJ YUSUKE » Fri, 10 Jul 2020, 00:56

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
SSJ YUSUKE wrote:The current boundries of the South African provincial system are out of date and should be changed to reflect the current provinces, this would make more sense in terms of organizing club competitions and having fewer teams in an economically constrained enviroment. Like seriously some Unions were formed before South Africa was even formed. The Free State and Transvaal were independnent republics. The other provinces are based on old districts that stopped being used 100 years ago
I would have
Western Cape-WP, Boland and SWD
Eastern Cape- EP and Border
KZN- Sharks
Free State- FS and Griffons
Northern Cape- Griquas
NW- Leopards
Mpumalanga- Pumas
Gauteng- Lions and Valke
Notherns- Basically the Bulls in Pretoria and Limpopo
Add Namibia to the mix, they might not win but like the sunwolves they would probably benefit from having a team in the South African system.
So 10 team currie cup and club competitions based off real provincial boundries.
Finally I would probably remove the Universities from the club system and make compete purely college based system like in the US. The Varsity cup has put them too far ahead of many club teams


I more or less agree although I do think if Leopards and Welwitschias are included so too should Valke. Gauteng is big enough to have 2 teams. Namibia probably isn't in a position to enter a competitive team.

I am less thinking about who plays in what competition and more about how rugby is organized. The South African provincial system is made up of Unions who all run club competetions, school rugby, referees etc. Its a huge country. My idea is to rationalize the orginization of club
and University Rugby and have fewer provinical teams and nase them off the 9 political provinces of SA(most are a waste as they have little to no support at games outside the 6 unions based in major cities).
The Valke are technically in one of South Africas major cities but its less a major city and more a conurbation and extention of Johannesburg in Gauteng so I kept them with the Lions. And honestly the Valke don't have that much support either.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby theDarky » Fri, 10 Jul 2020, 00:59

cesaraugusto1988 wrote:I saw the last Super Rugby match between Crusaders vs Highlanders. I think NZ rugby join to Australia and South Africa is the most competictive championship under Profissional era


it was interesting during the super10/super12 period as it was a real elite competition with qualifying teams (like the champions cup) and the season was very short (3 months)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Super_12_season

They cant fight with the european leagues (especially the french ones for money and cultural reasons) and with the japanese one they couldnt continue with their model based on players signing with the unions

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby SSJ YUSUKE » Fri, 10 Jul 2020, 01:12

victorsra wrote:We all know Namibia has no money for that.

Isn't it good to have a second Cape team? Boland+Eagles. Like Gauteng has Bulls and Lions.

Boland and South Western Districts would be a good idea but I am not just thinking of Rugby teams but also how rugby is organized at a club level and I would prefer everything to organized along real provincial lines. Boland actaully used to be the WP country Union until the 1930's when they left because of the favouritism shown toward town club teams in club competitions.
SWD(eagles) have never been succesful despite being one of the oldest Unions in South Africa(they do have decent Junior teams) and it should be part of the Boland area..
In the western cape club rugby is huge, especially in coloured communities(basically mixed raced people) where unlike the resg of South Africa coloured people are the majority of the population and Rugby is the main game we play. But it doesn't translate into pronvincial support. So I would just make them part of the wider western cape and have the team play 1 game in each sub union a year and have them play their pre season games their, guarentee they would be sold out if WP(WC) play games their

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 10 Jul 2020, 18:02

Makes sense.

This makes 9 teams. The question about Namibia (or Kenya) being the 10th is $. I don't realy understand what happens with Namibian rugby finances. I know the country's population is small and sparse (less than 3mi), but Windhoek looks like a city that should be able to sustain a pro rugby side.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 10 Jul 2020, 19:05

victorsra wrote:Makes sense.

This makes 9 teams. The question about Namibia (or Kenya) being the 10th is $. I don't realy understand what happens with Namibian rugby finances. I know the country's population is small and sparse (less than 3mi), but Windhoek looks like a city that should be able to sustain a pro rugby side.


It's just down to corruption.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 10 Jul 2020, 19:18

And Namibian economy looks more solid than most African nations.... They have a strong mining sector. With a serious professional transparent union they could have better partners. After all, they are always in the RWC! Also government could use rugby to boost ecotourism (and tourism is like 15% of Namibian gdp). Welwitschias are a wasted opportunity.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 10 Jul 2020, 20:19

victorsra wrote:And Namibian economy looks more solid than most African nations.... They have a strong mining sector. With a serious professional transparent union they could have better partners. After all, they are always in the RWC! Also government could use rugby to boost ecotourism (and tourism is like 15% of Namibian gdp). Welwitschias are a wasted opportunity.


Yes it's a real shame.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/jacques- ... nce-coach/

They have so much potential. If they were as well run as even an average South African provincial team they would be one of the stronger tier 2 teams. They certainly have the talent. I'm sure there are a few Namibia qualified players who stay away from the National team because it's generally in such a mess, with people not being paid.

The other thing that frustrates me about Namibia is rugby is by far their strongest sport. They are not likely to be at world cups in any other sport, but the nation and the government doesn't really embrace the rugby team as their national team. Even Namibian rugby fans don't have much respect for their National team because they are so far behind their neighbours the Springboks.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby victorsra » Fri, 10 Jul 2020, 21:49

The other thing that frustrates me about Namibia is rugby is by far their strongest sport. They are not likely to be at world cups in any other sport, but the nation and the government doesn't really embrace the rugby team as their national team. Even Namibian rugby fans don't have much respect for their National team because they are so far behind their neighbours the Springboks.

Which is unbelivable.
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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 13 Jul 2020, 20:40

If Sanzaar definitely disappears... South Africa can't do a standalone championship with all the Springboks. Even if Jaguares join them. They need to play either the Trans-Tasman or Pro14 teams, even if it's just during the playoffs.

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Re: Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

Postby Tobar » Tue, 14 Jul 2020, 00:02

victorsra wrote:
The other thing that frustrates me about Namibia is rugby is by far their strongest sport. They are not likely to be at world cups in any other sport, but the nation and the government doesn't really embrace the rugby team as their national team. Even Namibian rugby fans don't have much respect for their National team because they are so far behind their neighbours the Springboks.

Which is unbelivable.


Do you think that apartheid thing has something to do with it?

This isn’t sarcasm, it’s a genuine question. I don’t know much about Namibian political culture but if rugby was seen as a white minority sport then I imagine it’s also seen as that in Namibia.

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