Growing rugby in Tier 1 nations

[jservuk]

I believe you. When I visited Manchester (April 2018) I couldn't find Super League shirts to buy in sports stores and one salesman basicaly didn't know what Super League was... I also couldn't find Sale Sharks shirts. But TBH I just searched for it one day. I was busy in the rest of the time.

Isn't York more or less equaly split RL-Soccer?

Well, they're the Sale Sharks not the Manchester Sharks. But they also play in Salford and not Sale.

Rugby isn't popular in Manchester or Liverpool. Rugby league is popular in certain towns. Sports shops are mostly chains like Soccer Sports. Rugby clubs have their own club shops. The main sports shops will sell England shirts, Wales shirts etc but not rugby club shirts.

Greater Manchester has quite a few clubs. But soccer does dominate.

Greater Manchester Union Clubs:

Sale Sharks
Sale Football Club
Manchester Rugby Club
North Manchester Rugby Club
Manchester Village
Eccles RFC
Broughton Park FC
Old Bedians
Aldwinians RUFC
Burnage
Altrincham
Oldham
Didsbury
Trafford
Heaton Moor
Stockport

There's even more, but you get the point.

I was talking about Manchester not Greater Manchester. And I meant rugby isn't popular as a spectator sport in Manchester. Rugby is popular as a participation sport all over England. England has 1809 rugby clubs apparently, so wherever you are in England you're never far from a rugby club. But those players don't necessarily support a professional rugby team. If you go into a rugby club in Liverpool and ask people what club they support, they'll say Everton or Liverpool. Some people might support St Helens. I don't know about Manchester. Those players might say they're Sale Sharks supporters because it's a Greater Manchester club.

Agreed. Whilst there is no shortage of clubs of most sports, the ground swell of interest is far higher in football even in areas where the RL team is of a higher profile than the football team - Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Sheffield, Oldham, Rochdale being the examples I know best. I've never been to any business/social gathering in these places where Rugby has been the topic, other than if a 6N game has been on, and even then football dominates sporting discourse. Granted this is anecdotal, but based on decades of living here.

After the debacle of Stockport County being usurped by Sale Sharks from their own ground, the less said about the Sharks the better. They didn't do the Rugby cause any favours in those parts.

[Chester-Donnelly]

jservuk Six Nations and Rugby World Cup is the only time rugby is part of the national conversation. Even the Lions tour is only of interest to rugby people. It's the same with tennis; most people only take an interest in tennis when Wimbledon is on. Athletics is only acknowledged for one week every four years when the Olympic Games is on. I feel like cricket isn't talked about as much as it used to be because it's only on Sky.

[TheStroBro]

Agreed. Whilst there is no shortage of clubs of most sports, the ground swell of interest is far higher in football even in areas where the RL team is of a higher profile than the football team - Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Sheffield, Oldham, Rochdale being the examples I know best. I've never been to any business/social gathering in these places where Rugby has been the topic, other than if a 6N game has been on, and even then football dominates sporting discourse. Granted this is anecdotal, but based on decades of living here.

After the debacle of Stockport County being usurped by Sale Sharks from their own ground, the less said about the Sharks the better. They didn't do the Rugby cause any favours in those parts.

Usurped is cute language. They were owned by the same person. Can't exactly usurp your own properties.

[Tobar]

As a separate question , where do countries like Scotland go in the future ?

My opinon is that they will cling on for dear mercy at the top table for as long as possible and then slide down the rankings periodically to sit around that 12th to 15th in the world where Italy currently sit , Italy possibly a few places below. Probably still having two pro club teams , possibly a third , but essentially being a nation where we are no longer competitive either at club level of national level.

I would be interested in the opinions of others about where they see Scottish rugby in 10 to 20 years time .

I think Scotland will remain just as competitive at club and international level as they are now. The only difference is there will be more lower tier 1 level teams. I think Georgia and Russia will rise to the level of Scotland. Italy might actually improve to the level of Scotland too. Fiji should be at that level more consistently. USA and Uruguay will rise to that level. It's difficult to predict what will happen with Argentina but I think they will stay around that level. Tonga and Samoa will continue to have cycles of being good and not so good.

In 10-20 years time a RWC quarter final spot will be a success for Scotland, same as now. And to beat England and not finish bottom in the Six Nations, or whatever we have instead, will be a successful championship.

Interesting that you see Russia jumping to that level. We were pleasantly surprised by their underdog showing at the World Cup but still ended up losing every game with a score line of around 30-10. And this is playing against the other teams’ B sides. And keep in mind that they were 3rd or 4th in line to even enter but got in on a technicality.

I can see them growing very well in the next 10-20 years, especially if the federation manages to get some serious cash injections from the government and oligarchs. But unless they get their own fully professional league up and running in the next few years, I can’t see them even getting to Georgia level of success anytime soon.

[Working Class Rugger]

As a separate question , where do countries like Scotland go in the future ?

My opinon is that they will cling on for dear mercy at the top table for as long as possible and then slide down the rankings periodically to sit around that 12th to 15th in the world where Italy currently sit , Italy possibly a few places below. Probably still having two pro club teams , possibly a third , but essentially being a nation where we are no longer competitive either at club level of national level.

I would be interested in the opinions of others about where they see Scottish rugby in 10 to 20 years time .

I think Scotland will remain just as competitive at club and international level as they are now. The only difference is there will be more lower tier 1 level teams. I think Georgia and Russia will rise to the level of Scotland. Italy might actually improve to the level of Scotland too. Fiji should be at that level more consistently. USA and Uruguay will rise to that level. It's difficult to predict what will happen with Argentina but I think they will stay around that level. Tonga and Samoa will continue to have cycles of being good and not so good.

In 10-20 years time a RWC quarter final spot will be a success for Scotland, same as now. And to beat England and not finish bottom in the Six Nations, or whatever we have instead, will be a successful championship.

Interesting that you see Russia jumping to that level. We were pleasantly surprised by their underdog showing at the World Cup but still ended up losing every game with a score line of around 30-10. And this is playing against the other teams’ B sides. And keep in mind that they were 3rd or 4th in line to even enter but got in on a technicality.

I can see them growing very well in the next 10-20 years, especially if the federation manages to get some serious cash injections from the government and oligarchs. But unless they get their own fully professional league up and running in the next few years, I can’t see them even getting to Georgia level of success anytime soon.

I'm fairly certain the Russian Premier Rugby League is actually pretty close to fully professional these days. There's still a lot of work needed though. Most notably on developing robust development pathways. A U20s level of the RPRL wouldn't go astray. Though, I still think the likes of Spain will probably get to a more competitive level sooner.

[Figaro]

jservuk Six Nations and Rugby World Cup is the only time rugby is part of the national conversation. Even the Lions tour is only of interest to rugby people. It's the same with tennis; most people only take an interest in tennis when Wimbledon is on. Athletics is only acknowledged for one week every four years when the Olympic Games is on. I feel like cricket isn't talked about as much as it used to be because it's only on Sky.

I don't think this is just the UK though. I remember chatting with a French fan in Cardiff who had come over to see his team play Wales in the 6N. We spoke about rugby for about ten minutes. He was from Paris, so I asked him what club he supported, and without a hint of irony he answered "PSG".

[NaBUru38]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_end- ... rnationals

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/53552277

[welshdragon2000]

Too bad that Georgia aren’t getting the tests that they were scheduled to get but this will be an entertaining tournament. Hoping that Fiji and Japan can take some scalps. Fiji have put together quite the coaching staff so hopefully that will push them on.

[Chester-Donnelly]

It will be interesting to see how this 8 team tournament is received. If it is popular it could open the way for Georgia and another team to join the Six Nations, maybe South Africa or Argentina. Maybe Fiji stays in a European tournament because that's where most of their players are and there could be lower costs are higher income than a Pacific tournament.

[Chester-Donnelly]

The RFU is proposing to ring fence the Premiership (presumably in a years time, with 13 Premiership clubs) and have a 16 team Championship, and also set up a draft system.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/amp/rugby-union/53608795

I think it's also worth saying that these are the top 10 rugby universities: Durham, Exeter, Leeds Beckett, Cardiff Met, Loughborough, Hartpury, Swansea, Bath, Cardiff, Northumbria.
3 are in Wales so only 7 in England. 2 in the North East. 3 in the South West. 1 in Yorkshire and 1 in the East Midlands.

Leeds Rugby Union has an academy which it has been reported is being scrapped. The 13 Premiership clubs all have academies. The Leeds rugby academy and Leeds Beckett university team are the only ones without an associated Premiership club, but maybe this new structure will enable the Yorkshire rugby academy to be saved.

[victorsra]

The RFU is proposing to ring fence the Premiership (presumably in a years time, with 13 Premiership clubs) and have a 16 team Championship, and also set up a draft system.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/amp/rugby-union/53608795

I think it's also worth saying that these are the top 10 rugby universities: Durham, Exeter, Leeds Beckett, Cardiff Met, Loughborough, Hartpury, Swansea, Bath, Cardiff, Northumbria.
3 are in Wales so only 7 in England. 2 in the North East. 3 in the South West. 1 in Yorkshire and 1 in the East Midlands.

Leeds Rugby Union has an academy which it has been reported is being scrapped. The 13 Premiership clubs all have academies. The Leeds rugby academy and Leeds Beckett university team are the only ones without an associated Premiership club, but maybe this new structure will enable the Yorkshire rugby academy to be saved.

What's the reaction from Championship clubs?

[Chester-Donnelly]

The RFU is proposing to ring fence the Premiership (presumably in a years time, with 13 Premiership clubs) and have a 16 team Championship, and also set up a draft system.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/amp/rugby-union/53608795

I think it's also worth saying that these are the top 10 rugby universities: Durham, Exeter, Leeds Beckett, Cardiff Met, Loughborough, Hartpury, Swansea, Bath, Cardiff, Northumbria.
3 are in Wales so only 7 in England. 2 in the North East. 3 in the South West. 1 in Yorkshire and 1 in the East Midlands.

Leeds Rugby Union has an academy which it has been reported is being scrapped. The 13 Premiership clubs all have academies. The Leeds rugby academy and Leeds Beckett university team are the only ones without an associated Premiership club, but maybe this new structure will enable the Yorkshire rugby academy to be saved.

What's the reaction from Championship clubs?

There has been no reaction.

[vino_93]

It will be interesting to see how this 8 team tournament is received. If it is popular it could open the way for Georgia and another team to join the Six Nations, maybe South Africa or Argentina. Maybe Fiji stays in a European tournament because that's where most of their players are and there could be lower costs are higher income than a Pacific tournament.

First impression from France : tournament isn't well seen. Fans of Top 14 aren't happy. Some other aren't really happy about Japan & Fiji choice. They would have chosen Georgia at least.
I'm not sure this will be very popular, let's see. I hope there will be public in the stadiums, to go watching one game ... to see my first victory of France (only seen live in stadium defeats or draw )

[Armchair Fan]

It will be interesting to see how this 8 team tournament is received. If it is popular it could open the way for Georgia and another team to join the Six Nations, maybe South Africa or Argentina. Maybe Fiji stays in a European tournament because that's where most of their players are and there could be lower costs are higher income than a Pacific tournament.

First impression from France : tournament isn't well seen. Fans of Top 14 aren't happy. Some other aren't really happy about Japan & Fiji choice. They would have chosen Georgia at least.
I'm not sure this will be very popular, let's see. I hope there will be public in the stadiums, to go watching one game ... to see my first victory of France (only seen live in stadium defeats or draw )

That's the problem of Georgia and quite a few Tier 2. They are only recognised by France, French rugby and fans, because they see their players week in, week out. That doesn't happen in the Home Nations.

[Chester-Donnelly]

It will be interesting to see how this 8 team tournament is received. If it is popular it could open the way for Georgia and another team to join the Six Nations, maybe South Africa or Argentina. Maybe Fiji stays in a European tournament because that's where most of their players are and there could be lower costs are higher income than a Pacific tournament.

First impression from France : tournament isn't well seen. Fans of Top 14 aren't happy. Some other aren't really happy about Japan & Fiji choice. They would have chosen Georgia at least.
I'm not sure this will be very popular, let's see. I hope there will be public in the stadiums, to go watching one game ... to see my first victory of France (only seen live in stadium defeats or draw )

That's the problem of Georgia and quite a few Tier 2. They are only recognised by France, French rugby and fans, because they see their players week in, week out. That doesn't happen in the Home Nations.

I'm not surprised the French are not happy with this tournament. France gets the two worst Six Nations teams plus Japan. It would have made sense to have England, Scotland and Wales in the same pool. The British fans never get tired of watching those fixtures. The Euro teams (France, Ireland, Italy) should have been put together.

[vino_93]

It will be interesting to see how this 8 team tournament is received. If it is popular it could open the way for Georgia and another team to join the Six Nations, maybe South Africa or Argentina. Maybe Fiji stays in a European tournament because that's where most of their players are and there could be lower costs are higher income than a Pacific tournament.

First impression from France : tournament isn't well seen. Fans of Top 14 aren't happy. Some other aren't really happy about Japan & Fiji choice. They would have chosen Georgia at least.
I'm not sure this will be very popular, let's see. I hope there will be public in the stadiums, to go watching one game ... to see my first victory of France (only seen live in stadium defeats or draw )

That's the problem of Georgia and quite a few Tier 2. They are only recognised by France, French rugby and fans, because they see their players week in, week out. That doesn't happen in the Home Nations.

Yes, but we never play them neither... I think last time was in 2007 ? We should have met this October...

[vino_93]

It will be interesting to see how this 8 team tournament is received. If it is popular it could open the way for Georgia and another team to join the Six Nations, maybe South Africa or Argentina. Maybe Fiji stays in a European tournament because that's where most of their players are and there could be lower costs are higher income than a Pacific tournament.

First impression from France : tournament isn't well seen. Fans of Top 14 aren't happy. Some other aren't really happy about Japan & Fiji choice. They would have chosen Georgia at least.
I'm not sure this will be very popular, let's see. I hope there will be public in the stadiums, to go watching one game ... to see my first victory of France (only seen live in stadium defeats or draw )

That's the problem of Georgia and quite a few Tier 2. They are only recognised by France, French rugby and fans, because they see their players week in, week out. That doesn't happen in the Home Nations.

I'm not surprised the French are not happy with this tournament. France gets the two worst Six Nations teams plus Japan. It would have made sense to have England, Scotland and Wales in the same pool. The British fans never get tired of watching those fixtures. The Euro teams (France, Ireland, Italy) should have been put together.

It's not a matter of opponents for most of the people not happy with that, but timing. It will hugely impact top 14, most of the top 14 fans are really unhappy with that.

[victorsra]

It will be interesting to see how this 8 team tournament is received. If it is popular it could open the way for Georgia and another team to join the Six Nations, maybe South Africa or Argentina. Maybe Fiji stays in a European tournament because that's where most of their players are and there could be lower costs are higher income than a Pacific tournament.

First impression from France : tournament isn't well seen. Fans of Top 14 aren't happy. Some other aren't really happy about Japan & Fiji choice. They would have chosen Georgia at least.
I'm not sure this will be very popular, let's see. I hope there will be public in the stadiums, to go watching one game ... to see my first victory of France (only seen live in stadium defeats or draw )

That's the problem of Georgia and quite a few Tier 2. They are only recognised by France, French rugby and fans, because they see their players week in, week out. That doesn't happen in the Home Nations.

Yes. In one perspective, it is good to see T1 fans unhappy about T2 treatment. In the other hand, well, French fans, no surprise. It will only change when British fans start to be unhappy about it.

If there was one moment to have the so called Euro Championship was now. Anyway, Japan and Fiji voted for Beaumont/Laporte, so it is both economical (Japan) and political - and a bit technical because Fiji beat Georgia in the RWC by 45-10, which means Georgia lost a bit of the appeal for T1s eyes (maybe).

[Thomas]

What's more concerning according to the Guardian, the RFU, which has budgeted for losses of £107m, is shielding its revenue-making departments from the full impact of the cuts but the 234-strong workforce responsible for rugby development in the community will shrink from 234 to 130. The number of contracted players in the sevens and women’s games, meanwhile, will almost halve, dropping from 58 to 30 with the men’s and women’s sevens likely to be more heavily affected.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/31/england-womens-and-sevens-squads-to-bear-brunt-of-rfu-cuts-rugby-union

[Chester-Donnelly]

What's more concerning according to the Guardian, the RFU, which has budgeted for losses of £107m, is shielding its revenue-making departments from the full impact of the cuts but the 234-strong workforce responsible for rugby development in the community will shrink from 234 to 130. The number of contracted players in the sevens and women’s games, meanwhile, will almost halve, dropping from 58 to 30 with the men’s and women’s sevens likely to be more heavily affected.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/31/england-womens-and-sevens-squads-to-bear-brunt-of-rfu-cuts-rugby-union

All the more reason to have a Great Britain men's team and a Great Britain women's team for sevens. They might even be able to get the British Olympic Committee or UK Sport to fund it.

[Rebus]

Would like to see European rugby unions put less money into their pro teams and attempt to redecue wage inflation.
If it becomes less to run a professional club then you may see more teams from both T1 and T2 nations being able to compete. If you want to grow rugby in T1 and you want to get other countries involved , make it more affordable to tun a team.
Unfortunately , most of the money raised in the game is in the international game and since the game has become professional there has been too much focus on getting more money and focussing on the international game rather than trying to promote the club game at the same pace.

If the 6 Nations make so much money and prevent the other Nations taking part , it is essentially a monopoly. If the smaller nations like Scotland run well funded professional clubs and can afford project players , then this limits the growth of developing nations. A country like Scotland should be running 4 or 5 professional teams not 2.

Getting more countries involved in the club and international game on a consistent basis at a higher level has to be the way forward. I will focus on the European game as an example. The 6 Nations is a money making machine , but rightly mentioned , if you drop out of that you face bankruptcy. So there is a responsibility to develop the rest of the European tiers. Similar to the English Premiership football , there should be a provision for payments being made to the lower tiers from the TV and sponsorship rights and there must be a mutual 20 year plan to get more countries playing rugby at a higher level. This can also be acheived in 6 Nations doing a fair share of gate receipts for the home matches.

As they move towards a lower wage level , there should be an concerted attempt to get more countries involved in the club game. Again , the 6 Nations should be involved in a mutual agreement with the EPRC to raise the profile of the European club competitions and have more T2/T3 nations involved. Over the 20 year plan , this should raise the profile sufficiently where there is a higher participation as well as more commercial / tv money coming into the game from across Europe. From a T1 perspective , countries like Scotland and Italy should have more teams participating in Europe.

[ihateblazers]

I believe you. When I visited Manchester (April 2018) I couldn't find Super League shirts to buy in sports stores and one salesman basicaly didn't know what Super League was... I also couldn't find Sale Sharks shirts. But TBH I just searched for it one day. I was busy in the rest of the time.

Isn't York more or less equaly split RL-Soccer?

Well, they're the Sale Sharks not the Manchester Sharks. But they also play in Salford and not Sale.

Rugby isn't popular in Manchester or Liverpool. Rugby league is popular in certain towns. Sports shops are mostly chains like Soccer Sports. Rugby clubs have their own club shops. The main sports shops will sell England shirts, Wales shirts etc but not rugby club shirts.

Greater Manchester has quite a few clubs. But soccer does dominate.

Greater Manchester Union Clubs:

Sale Sharks
Sale Football Club
Manchester Rugby Club
North Manchester Rugby Club
Manchester Village
Eccles RFC
Broughton Park FC
Old Bedians
Aldwinians RUFC
Burnage
Altrincham
Oldham
Didsbury
Trafford
Heaton Moor
Stockport

There's even more, but you get the point.

I was talking about Manchester not Greater Manchester. And I meant rugby isn't popular as a spectator sport in Manchester. Rugby is popular as a participation sport all over England. England has 1809 rugby clubs apparently, so wherever you are in England you're never far from a rugby club. But those players don't necessarily support a professional rugby team. If you go into a rugby club in Liverpool and ask people what club they support, they'll say Everton or Liverpool. Some people might support St Helens. I don't know about Manchester. Those players might say they're Sale Sharks supporters because it's a Greater Manchester club.

Agreed. Whilst there is no shortage of clubs of most sports, the ground swell of interest is far higher in football even in areas where the RL team is of a higher profile than the football team - Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, Huddersfield, Sheffield, Oldham, Rochdale being the examples I know best. I've never been to any business/social gathering in these places where Rugby has been the topic, other than if a 6N game has been on, and even then football dominates sporting discourse. Granted this is anecdotal, but based on decades of living here.

After the debacle of Stockport County being usurped by Sale Sharks from their own ground, the less said about the Sharks the better. They didn't do the Rugby cause any favours in those parts.

You could probably say the same about a lot of areas around the UK, not just the north of England. It seems to be one of the problems rugby has with its lack of support base for professional clubs in tier 1. The older generation grew up with rugby as an amateur sport and would rather play on the weekends and watch international game’s now and again. The younger generations are not enticed by the pro club product on offer. I know many guys my age in their late 20’s who I played with, who love the sport but stop playing and just can’t get into pro club rugby and would rather watch premier league football and a few 6 nations matches.

The support base is minuscule and niche but the participation of the sport is fairly well established and is a strength. I think there needs to be more done to attract casual rugby people, non rugby fans and the younger rugby generation. Rugby fails on all fronts worldwide and caters to an audience who don’t really care either way and who are ageing fast.

[victorsra]

What's the reason you believe pro rugby is not appealing to its own amateur community?

[iul]

What's the reason you believe pro rugby is not appealing to its own amateur community?

Some people are just interested in participating instead of also being interested in watching the highest level of their activity. For example, I like cycling and fishing, but have no interest in watching pro competitions.

[victorsra]

Yes, of course, and that's what happens with rugby in general in most countries. But England is an interesting case as it has the biggest number of players in the world.