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Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 03:25

Well, this doesn’t look like it’s been built already. Unless they’ve been playing on dirt with tractors.

https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 79264?s=21

And the agreement was just signed the other day.

https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 56616?s=21

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 03:44

Tobar wrote:Well, this doesn’t look like it’s been built already. Unless they’ve been playing on dirt with tractors.

https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 79264?s=21

And the agreement was just signed the other day.

https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 56616?s=21



The stadium itself exists. You can see the concrete grandstand in those photos, google: Estadio Héroes de Curupayty, and then look at the Satellite imagery. The difference is they're going to a turf pitch and not playing on grass.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TuMachNach » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 07:21

carbonero wrote:
TuMachNach wrote:URR president complain about they can only develop URR players through UAR academy...

Did he say that? I can't find it in the interview.


That wasn’t in the interview linked. I’ve read it somewhere else but I can’t find it now so easily.

carbonero wrote:
Salta wrote:
carbonero wrote:
TuMachNach wrote:In one side there's a union that has grown from 4 clubs to 12 clubs in the last 5 years with 8 clubs more in development and a big involvement in public and private schools system. On another side, there's an union with the same clubs as, maybe, 30 years ago but with an increasing number of members of those clubs.

Which unions? I'm intrigued.

I guess he's talking about Salta and Tucumán, but maybe he's from Salta because the reality is exactly the other way around.

Yeah, that was my suspicion. Salta’s playing numbers have been dreadful in 2019. They went from 2.704 to 1.891 registered players in one year > https://rugbydesalta.blogspot.com/2019/ ... 52019.html


Yep, I was writing about Salta. It’s noticeable the drop of registered players in 2019 but nothing could explain the situation with a real certainty… that was about 30% of players suddenly leaving rugby in that Union after years of a slow and constant increment of registered players.

victorsra wrote:"G8" are the most powerful 8 unions? Including URBA?
Many interesting questions from your conversation.


G8 is formed by Córdoba, Tucumán, Mendoza and Rosario Unions presidents and the guys who represent each one in UAR. That’s why the number 8 but they are only 4 Unions.

carbonero wrote:No contracts. These payments ultimately come from the player's pockets. Players who pay their social fee every month. I could understand some sort of compensation if the clubs subsidy their training. That is not the case here.


About this, I could only add that I know that some clubs subsidy the training of some guys who don’t have enough money to pay the social fee neither the bus to the club. Some call them “Becas” and consist in paying the players social fees, travels to play in other cities, travel to the club and, sometimes, the kit to play. Those are only a few cases and clubs are mostly full of people who could pay to train and play.

Thomas wrote:Putting aside SLAR, I cannot find anything to indicate how SLAR ties in with Grassroots and local Rugby. Is there a 5 year or 10 year program? How they going to cement roots in their respective regions.


That’s up to each Union. Some as UAR and URU have a clear pathway between Grassroots/Local Rugby and their professional franchises in SLAR because they have worked in their HP program for a while. The other Unions have recently begun with their national HP program and the ties with Grassroots and Local Rugby are not completely established or, maybe, they are inexistent.

Tobar wrote:Well, this doesn’t look like it’s been built already. Unless they’ve been playing on dirt with tractors.
https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 79264?s=21
And the agreement was just signed the other day.
https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 56616?s=21


The stadium exists since a few years ago. The news are that they’re replacing natural grass by the artificial one.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 15:02

Tobar wrote:Well, this doesn’t look like it’s been built already. Unless they’ve been playing on dirt with tractors.

https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 79264?s=21

And the agreement was just signed the other day.

https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 56616?s=21

Tupis faced Yakares there. Brazil won the 2019 South American women's title there. It has been Paraguay rugby's home since 2015. They are just renewing it.

Here the news when the Paraguayan Rugby Union got the stadium https://www.abc.com.py/deportes/polidep ... 70117.html

This is another reason why i say Brazil is behind Paraguay in some central aspects.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Salta » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 17:52

Here the first match in the stadium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcyv7K7WQPM

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby qwerty » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 18:02

victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:Well, this doesn’t look like it’s been built already. Unless they’ve been playing on dirt with tractors.

https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 79264?s=21

And the agreement was just signed the other day.

https://twitter.com/olimpialionfans/sta ... 56616?s=21

Tupis faced Yakares there. Brazil won the 2019 South American women's title there. It has been Paraguay rugby's home since 2015. They are just renewing it.

Here the news when the Paraguayan Rugby Union got the stadium https://www.abc.com.py/deportes/polidep ... 70117.html

This is another reason why i say Brazil is behind Paraguay in some central aspects.


Any possibility the CBRu does with Ibirapuera what URU did with Charrua?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 09 Jan 2020, 18:26

Very unlikely. Reasons:

- There is a frozen process of privatization of Ibirapuera complex. The focus is the indoor arena (São Paulo biggest one, that is very old), not the stadium. They want to allow the company that wins the bid to demolish the stadium and build anything there (shopping mall, building, anything). They want someone to transform the indoor arena into a world class arena. This means the State of São Paulo Government (that owns Ibirapuera) is not investing $ in the complex now;

- The stadium is not in good conditions. It was built for track and field and it is used by them. Which means the field has holes because of Discus, Hammer, Javelin, Shot put, Weight throw ... At least those sports have another nearby facility that now is more used (with the risk of demolishing Ibirapuera);

- This means, if the stadium is not demolished and the government opens it for partnerships with sports federations or clubs, rugby would need to renew all the field and CBRu is realy with no money for that... rugby used the stadium for the last time in 2015 and it was a nightmare for the players... imagine now;

- BTW, Ibirapuera is also American Football's dream... they've used it in the recent past...

But this stadium has a great location and the perfect size for rugby.

What I know now is that the chance of rugby using Parque São Jorge stadium (Corinthians 2nd stadium, used now by women's and juniors' football sides) is being negociated. Good news.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TuMachNach » Fri, 10 Jan 2020, 15:24

In the last meeting of Union Tucumana de Rugby (URT) Council, it set a international transfer fee for players who are registered in URT. The amount is ARS$125,000 (ca. US$2,000): 70% of that will be for the club and 30% for URT.

Till the moment I'm commenting, URT hasn't justified the payment of this fee.

Let's see how this affects URT players in non-argentine franchises.

https://twitter.com/ManuelCardozo48/sta ... 0617202688

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby beber » Fri, 10 Jan 2020, 21:43

Olimpia signed former fijian star Napoleoni Nalaga and Matt Matich from Auckland Blues.
Namibian scrumhalf Damian Stevens , fijian centre Vasikeli Mudu, Western Province lock Brandon Valentyn and fullback Grant Hermanus (Griquas) are also joining the paraguayan team

Olimpia full squad

Image
Image

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Fri, 10 Jan 2020, 22:24

Wow, they’re making some moves. My crazy prediction is that Ceibos won’t finish in 1st place and it’ll be either Olimpia or Peñarol. Let’s see how crazy that theory is in a few weeks.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Sat, 11 Jan 2020, 02:16

My vote still goes to Ceibos or Peñarol, but the top3 looks clear, with Olimpia.

Corinthians ane Selknam will play for the 4th semifinal spot.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby beber » Sat, 11 Jan 2020, 21:22

As Georgia XV travelling to Argentina to play 2 games against Jaguares, could have been very interesting to see them to play a third game against Los Ceibos or another SLAR team

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 11 Jan 2020, 22:36

TuMachNach wrote:In the last meeting of Union Tucumana de Rugby (URT) Council, it set a international transfer fee for players who are registered in URT. The amount is ARS$125,000 (ca. US$2,000): 70% of that will be for the club and 30% for URT.

Till the moment I'm commenting, URT hasn't justified the payment of this fee.

Let's see how this affects URT players in non-argentine franchises.

https://twitter.com/ManuelCardozo48/sta ... 0617202688

So they want a transfer fee, but they're amateur? Stupid. We had that issue up here, some of the clubs were complaining because they lost players to MLR...well do better recruiting. If the player is paying you to play, the professional club don't need to pay you a "transfer" fee.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 11 Jan 2020, 22:51

Rather than a transfer fee it's a compensation for the formative work conducted, which exists in other countries and sports.

My doubt here is how able Tucumán is to enforce it. Do they manage international transfers or administrative work falls under UAR umbrella? Would World Rugby intervene in their favor if somebody contested it?

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sat, 11 Jan 2020, 23:23

Armchair Fan wrote:Rather than a transfer fee it's a compensation for the formative work conducted, which exists in other countries and sports.

My doubt here is how able Tucumán is to enforce it. Do they manage international transfers or administrative work falls under UAR umbrella? Would World Rugby intervene in their favor if somebody contested it?


Exactly, it's the Sports Formation National Law, and it applies to all sports, including individual sports, when an athlete signs a professional contract or receives cash prizes (in the case of individuals, as Tennis, it's paid by the tournament organizer, the 5% of the total prizes he gives and is paid in equal shares to the entities of the top 4), it even applies to all future transfers of athletes.

What I don't understand, is from where the URT gets that values and % distribution, since that is established in the Law as already say, is 5% of the total contract (including prizes, bonuses, etc.), and also, 100% goes to the club, and only in case the club doesn't claim it when it has not been paid (it has 2 years to do so), only the Union or Federation can make the claim for itself and allocating the money only for the promotion of youth amateur sport.

EDIT: is 0,5% for each year between the 9 and 18 (=5% if the athletes play in the same club all that years, so, more of 1 institution can receive the money)...I still remember when I go as a little kid to the federation "to firm" my allegiance to my club, and few years later, going again to pay my "transfer" (the value of 3 balls) :lol:

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby carbonero » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 01:18

No, this is a transfer fee. The formation rights law has never been enforced in rugby. The URT wouldn’t get a cut if that was the case.

This is what we call a “pase”. Every regional union bar URBA has one to fund their activities. Players even have to pay when they move to other amateur leagues in the country.

I don’t know how they enforce it. There could be some sort of International Transfer Certificate like in football. Though I’m sure there are ways to dodge it. US$ 2.000 could be 20% of their anual earnings in Spain. Some players wouldn’t move if they have to pay that price. I imagine that most clubs refuse to get their cut.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 02:00

carbonero wrote:No, this is a transfer fee. The formation rights law has never been enforced in rugby. The URT wouldn’t get a cut if that was the case.

This is what we call a “pase”. Every regional union bar URBA has one to fund their activities. Players even have to pay when they move to other amateur leagues in the country.

I don’t know how they enforce it. There could be some sort of International Transfer Certificate like in football. Though I’m sure there are ways to dodge it. US$ 2.000 could be 20% of their anual earnings in Spain. Some players wouldn’t move if they have to pay that price. I imagine that most clubs refuse to get their cut.


Stupid stuff like this is how you don't grow the sport.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 02:22

carbonero wrote:No, this is a transfer fee. The formation rights law has never been enforced in rugby. The URT wouldn’t get a cut if that was the case.

This is what we call a “pase”. Every regional union bar URBA has one to fund their activities. Players even have to pay when they move to other amateur leagues in the country.

I don’t know how they enforce it. There could be some sort of International Transfer Certificate like in football. Though I’m sure there are ways to dodge it. US$ 2.000 could be 20% of their anual earnings in Spain. Some players wouldn’t move if they have to pay that price. I imagine that most clubs refuse to get their cut.


Since I have not been able to read the "official" information of the URT, I assumed that they would apply the Sports Formation National Law, and if the Rugby never enforced it, anyway is the unique law applicable to amateur sport, it is a shame ... that being said, they have no way of enforce it, since they are amateurs, and the only way to receive money is by law, otherwise, there is no constitutional right to do so, so any player is legally available to play wherever he wants (clubs only has the law already described to receive some type of compensation in a legal way, otherwise, they can without any problem be subject to a judicial presentation against them, that they will lose always)

That said and considering that if they, the URT, assume that this is a "pase" (transfer), I am with TheStroBro about it

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 06:36

carbonero wrote:No, this is a transfer fee. The formation rights law has never been enforced in rugby. The URT wouldn’t get a cut if that was the case.

This is what we call a “pase”. Every regional union bar URBA has one to fund their activities. Players even have to pay when they move to other amateur leagues in the country.

I don’t know how they enforce it. There could be some sort of International Transfer Certificate like in football. Though I’m sure there are ways to dodge it. US$ 2.000 could be 20% of their anual earnings in Spain. Some players wouldn’t move if they have to pay that price. I imagine that most clubs refuse to get their cut.

There is, that's why I ask whether it's regional union or UAR who manages it.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby TuMachNach » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 07:31

First, I should warn you this is a long text and you could find it boring or terribly entertaining.

After searching in URT bylaw what it says about international transfer of players, I found something very odd in ART. 7 inc. g [1]:

- Si el jugador que pide el pase proviene de una Unión extranjera, o lo solicita para una Unión extranjera, deberá ajustarse a las disposiciones que sobre la materia rigen en la Unión Argentina de Rugby.-


That means, in case of international transfers, URT will follow the regulations of UAR about this. UAR bylaw establishes a payment of the administrative costs of international transfers and this is set by UAR Council every year but UAR doesn’t set an international transfer fee because of formative rights. The last update of this administrative cost I’ve found comes from 2018 and it was ARS$500 [2] (ca. US$25). Moreover, UAR gives Provincial Unions the freedom to set regulations about all this meanwhile they don’t go against UAR bylaw. First, that makes me think that URT should have change their own bylaw in order to allow the payment of an international transfer fee because the last bylaw doesn’t contain anything about it.

Now, here comes the big discussion of the current situation. Some Unions like URBA [3] and UCRugby [2] add an international transfer fee which is set by their own Council. This fee is justified as compensation for player development. I could only found URBA international transfer fee till 2012 because since then they haven’t published this, and in 2012 [3] this was ARS$200 (ca. US$45) as an addition to UAR adimistration cost which was ARS$350 (ca. US$78) during that year. So, URT wouldn’t be the first or the unique provincial union in doing it (but that amount of money looks excessive). This compensation for player development is backed and explained by World Rugby (it’s as old as IRB) in Regulation 4 [4].

I will sum up important parts of this: Reg. 4.7.2 is about this case, amateur players who goes professional (this only confirms that this case should be treated by this WR Reg.), Reg.4.7.3 is about the factors that could make the compensation possible and Reg. 4.7.4 gives us a mathematical formula to calculate that compensation and here I quote this:

A = B x C

Where A = the compensation payable;

B = the Standard Annual Development Investment of £5,000[6];

C = the number of years, between the ages of 17 and 23, a player has spent in development programmes of the Current Union.

[6]The Standard Annual Development Investment figure represents the average level of per Player funding attributable to development programmes in World Rugby High Performance and Performance Unions.


B is important because the only way to enforce the payment of the compensation (AKA international transfer fee or “pase”) and go in concordance with WR regulation is only in the situation of a player who was under a HP programm of the club or union. AFAIK URT don’t own any HP programm because the academy in Tucumán belongs to UAR and UAR sustain it. However, it still possible to be paid the compensation without having a HP programm (but then, this is not mandatory).

Continuing with Reg. 4, Reg. 4.7.5 establishes factors which are considered for the Standard Annual Development Investment. To sum up, if the club/union has paid something for the player development which is not included in the monthly club fee package and it is provable, then the compensation is possible. So, it is critical to have a good traceability of those costs because this situation leads us to Rel. 4.7.7 which explains that any disagreement over the payment would be solved by a Judicial Committee (without a real and transparent traceability this process will be always lost). Nevertheless, while this judicial process is taking part, the player can play in the new Union (if there’s nothing that makes it impossible) because the international player movement is an independent process from the payment of the compensation.

Finally, URT could have thought this situation much better than we could see and they have things in their favor but many other that could make this a big risky move. I’m still waiting the new regulation that states this transfer fee and clears the reasons of the fee, then this situation could be understood better than now.

PS: I was really tempted to write this all in Spanish.

[1] Here you can find URT Regulation http://www.urtuc.com.ar/Reglamentos/32
[2] http://www.unioncordobesaderugby.com.ar ... E-PASE.pdf
[3] https://urba.org.ar/useruploads/circula ... 2-2012.pdf
[4] https://www.world.rugby/handbook/regula ... g-4/reg-4/

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Hernan14 » Sun, 12 Jan 2020, 23:31

The problem facing the URT is simple, our National Constitution, given that it is against the Articles 14 and 19 (freedom of asocciation and "no inhabitant of the Nation will be forced to do what the law doesn't mandate, nor deprived of what doesn't prohibit") and not to mention that it also opposes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which Argentina adheres (Art. 20.2 No one may be compelled to belong to an association).

Therefore, football clubs usually sign agreements with amateur players, precisely to not only receive % of the sports formation, but an X amount or % of a future professional contract with another institution...however, the player doesn't is obliged to sign it, clubs usually do so to cover themselves in the future, applying something totally legal, such as an agreement between parties in front of a public notary.

If you read correctly, there are amounts of administrative expenses, except for Córdoba, but legally, they will lose all the cases they have against them, since they don't have any type of contract with the players, the players are only exercising their right of association with a sports entity, from which, having all his social fees paid, they can choose to leave it and leave wherever they want or stop playing or whatever they decide to do with his life.

If football clubs don't win a case of such type, I don't even want to imagine a rugby club.

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby Tobar » Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 02:08

According to this tweet, Brazil’s team does exist hooray

https://twitter.com/slarugby/status/121 ... 85414?s=21

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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 02:19

Misleading. The team already exists, it is the Tupis, same thing, and that only means the Tupis are starting pre-season. It doesn't mean it is under the franchise's operation. It isn't. SLAR is just trying to give some news where there aren't.

BTW, "LUNES DE COMEÇOS" is the most weird phrase ever written in a tweet. "Lunes" is spanish, not portuguese. "Começo" is portuguese, not spanish. Was that humour or what? Bizarre.
Last edited by victorsra on Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 16:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 02:50

Everybody talking about how late is Brazil, but where are SLAR's fixtures? We are 2 months from the kickoff...

And according to a CBRu calendar, SLAR kicks off on March 13h, not March 6th... was that published? Or maybe 6 is a Corinthians bye weekend and it start indeed on the 6th?

And like ARC it won't have a website?
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Re: Superliga Americana de Rugby (SLAR)

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Jan 2020, 15:50

News: SLAR is offering non-accuarate information. What started today was the Tupis pre season at NAR (the national high performance academy). Corinthians is yet to anounce the squad.
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