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Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 18:25

victorsra wrote:Well, some WR members were out in the last RWC qualy... but was it because they withdrew or simply weren't awarded places? In Europe, for exemple, Bulgaria was denied a place in the RWC 2019 Qualy because they were the only WR member that played the 2017 Development Cup (that wasn't part of the Qualy... only the 2017 Conference 2). We should check the other continents.

Np, I'm wrong. Bulgaria WAS part of the 2019 RWC Qualy because they played Conference 2 in 2016... so it was part of the RWC as they had the mission of not being relegated (and failed). All 2016 continental competitions were RWC Qualys if they allowed a team to go to the RWC Qualy finals by 2018.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 18:39

Here it shows well http://rugbyarchive.net/compseasons/174?Stagione=2019

So, Bulgaria was technicaly never part of the RWC 2019 because they were relegation in the 2014-16 season of Rugby Europe Conference, although in practical terms they WERE part of the RWC Qualy because they only needed to avoid relegation in 2014-16.

The curious thing is that the match that relegated Bulgaria was played in May 2016 against Bosnia. If Bulgaria had won, they would have played the 2017 Conference 2 (RWC Qualy). We could say that match was almost a RWC Repechage :P
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Wed, 10 Jun 2020, 19:25

But it should be known in anticipation. To say a team "sorry but we have now established that the qualifying match was the one of last year and you lost it" is like making that team not participating at all to the qualifying path.
It would be bad, for example, if in Asia just Top3 and Division 1 may participate to the RWC qualifying; they could say "you have the chance to be promoted to division 1 in the past years, it's not our fault if you missed that chance", but it would be anyway unfair to the excluded nations. It has been spent a lot of words about the Nations Championship and the power of a competition where all the nations have a path to the top of the World, it would be incoherent to exclude a priori some nations from the World Cup path. Furthermore if those nations are nations like China and India.
So it appears a bit strange that Asia Rugby chose to utilize as qualifying tournament the championship 2021 and not the 2022 one.
But let's wait for more details, before complaining too much

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Thu, 11 Jun 2020, 04:58

CraigChalmers wrote:


You say must, but the last thing I can think of that would be considered a 'major event' hosted in Scotland was the Sevens World Series in what, 2014? (Assuming the Commonwealth Games don't count, not being a world rugby event) From memory, we made expressions of interest for both SWS and for the 2018 Sevens RWC, but don't think we actually submitted a bid for either. Struggling to imagine we will host anything in the next 2 years either (only likely thing would be an U20 World Cup, but there is surely a good chance Italy will end up hosting that in 2021? And besides, we need to get back into it first!)

Is there a risk Scotland are going to lose a vote in 2022?

Some other notes about that document
- Romania didn't qualify to the last World Cup, but at point 9.3 the document says that a Union not qualifying to the finals of a RWC may maintain its place in the council; they've anyway to qualify to the next RWC finals, id est a Council member can't miss two (men's) RWC finals in a row. So Romania, which is if I'm not wrong the only current council member not qualified to the last World Cup, must qualify to France 2023 or apparently they will lose also their chair in the council
- Russia qualified to the last World Cup, they seem to have an economical strong federation, they host every year many European competitions, they've a solid women's and 7s program and I think they were planning to bid for the RWC 2027; therefore if they were able to qualify to the next World Cup they would fulfill, I think, all the criteria to be accepted in the council
- the World Rugby document calls Sudamerica Rugby "Rugby Americas South", thus referring them to Rugby Americas North and to the rarely appearing super-confederation called Rugby Americas. So it's like North and South America Rugby were linked, by a slim but concrete isthmus like it happens in the real world. And now Pineyrua is searching to excavate a new channel in that isthmus...

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Thu, 11 Jun 2020, 14:22

Yes and I guess the reason is Central Anerica is part of Sudamerica but isn't South America. Thus Americas South have logic.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Thu, 11 Jun 2020, 21:33

A resume of the American situation by Rugby Chile

http://www.rugbychile.cl/2020/06/11/se- ... ncia-2023/

It would be fair, to me, to say not that this is a conflict between North and South, but just a conflict of the South versus the North. I haven't read any attack by RAN or by one of its members toward SAR

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 15:26

According to Total Rugby, Germany (and Netherlands, and China, and India et cetera) would be already out of the World Cup. No play-off between the various continental levels, this time

Qualification from Europe: No more playoffs between divisions

The qualification path from Europe has not been described in detail on the Rugby Europe website or on the website of the World Association. It is only that the rating of the 2021 and 2022 edition of the Rugby Europe Championship is used as a qualification criterion.

On Tuesday, based on the previous regulations for the last two World Cups, we had speculated that there would be a playoff game between the individual seasons, so that every European team had at least a theoretical chance of the World Cup. Like in 2018, when Germany won the championship second against the trophy winner Portugal in Heidelberg in the playoff game 16:13, and was allowed to compete against Samoa.

Since then, however, Klaus Blank, ex-DRV president and currently a member of the Rugby Europe Council, has contacted us and clarified the process. Blank explains that the playoff games between the four levels of Rugby Europe have been eliminated in this World Cup cycle, as the seasons are counted year after year and no longer in a two-year overall ranking and thus a qualification from the lowest Level is possible in a reasonable time. World Rugby continues to emphasize that all 102 full member countries have a chance of qualifying for the World Cup.

In theory, this is still the case: as a member of the Rugby Europe Conference 2 - such as Serbia, Austria, Turkey or Denmark - you would have had to achieve the first of three ascents in a row in spring 2018, around 2021/2022 in Rugby Europe Championship to compete and get into the top three teams there. That would be the fastest possible way to buy the ticket for France 2023 from Europe's fourth EM level.

However, since our eagles will not be able to climb into the championship by next year, the only theoretical chance of participating in the World Cup is already obsolete. The games of the canceled European Championship season were already the World Cup qualifiers, without which this would have been communicated by Rugby Europe. Only the Netherlands and Switzerland trophy teams have a chance of winning the World Cup ticket, provided the Rugby Europe Trophy is still playing and the promotion and relegation game is still taking place with the last of the championship.

Thanks to the inadequate information policy of Rugby Europe and World Rugby, many teams should not have been aware in 2018 that they were already playing for the 2023 World Cup ticket. In any case, Klaus Blank admits to TR that he checked the internal documents again in order to be able to reproduce the process correctly.

Blank also criticizes another aspect of the overall World Cup qualification in the TR interview. The Pacific teams are almost rolled out the red carpet. Fiji is already qualified as a group third in Japan, either Samoa or Tonga will qualify in a direct duel and the loser from this duel has two more chances: Only in the playoff game against the best Asian team and if this is lost in the repechage tournament.

Some observers raise the question of whether this supposed preferential treatment also has to do with the loyalty of the Pacific nations in the vote for the World Rugby Presidency. After all, Fiji, Samoa and Oceania had supported the incumbent Beaumont, although challenger Pichot had promised the small rugby nations more chances.

http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/10249/410

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 16:40

So:

2021-2022 - Championship
2020 - Trophy
2019 - Conference 1
2018 - Conference 2
2017 - Development Cup

This also means

2025-2026 - Championship
2024 - Trophy
2023 - Conference 1
2022 - Conference 2
2021 Development Cup

RE should anounce next year's Development Cup is 2027 RWC Qualy :lol:
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 17:10

victorsra wrote:So:

2021-2022 - Championship
2020 - Trophy
2019 - Conference 1
2018 - Conference 2
2017 - Development Cup

This also means

2025-2026 - Championship
2024 - Trophy
2023 - Conference 1
2022 - Conference 2
2021 Development Cup

RE should anounce next year's Development Cup is 2027 RWC Qualy :lol:


I realy don't mind this to be the patern for all continents. However, but they should anounce now about 2027 to make it right.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Pichulonko » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 17:32

If the ARC is indeed cancelled and SAR and RAN do go their separate ways in WC qualifiers, I'll be the first to laugh when Canada misses out on the 2023 World Cup!

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 17:35

Why should that happen? I'd still bet on Canada winning the play-off against a South American team not being Uruguay and be extremely competitive, if not favorite, against whoever reaches repechage from Europe.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 18:09

victorsra wrote:I realy don't mind this to be the patern for all continents. However, but they should anounce now about 2027 to make it right.

Agree
I still hope that the german chairman version is wrong and that there's still room for all the member nations.
These are, if I'm not wrong, the nations already eliminated from the RWC 2023 without knowing it

25 NETHERLANDS
28 SWITZERLAND
30 GERMANY
34 POLAND
36 UKRAINE
37 CZECHIA
38 MALTA
41 PHILIPPINES
44 LITHUANIA
45 CROATIA
46 PARAGUAY
47 SRI LANKA
53 SWEDEN
55 SINGAPORE
56 LUXEMBOURG
59 MOLDOVA
60 ISRAEL
61 UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
62 KAZAKHSTAN
63 LATVIA
64 HUNGARY
65 TAIPEI
70 SLOVENIA
71 DENMARK
72 ANDORRA
73 BULGARIA
74 GUAM
76 THAILAND
77 PERU
78 VENEZUELA
80 CHINA
82 BOSNIA & HERZEGOVINA
84 INDIA
85 AUSTRIA
86 FINLAND
88 SERBIA
89 UZBEKISTAN
91 PAKISTAN
93 COSTA RICA
95 NORWAY
100 INDONESIA
102 MONACO
103 GREECE

(plus maybe some north american nations if they will decide to not include them all in the qualifiers)

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby ficcp » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 21:32

victorsra wrote:Georgia isn't Latin.

Latin languages in Europe that are official national languages: French (France, Belgium, Switzerland), Italian (Italy, San Marino), Monegasque (Monaco, closer to Italian dialects), Portuguese (Portugal), Spanish (Spain), Catalan (Andorra) and Romanian (Romania and Moldova).

Some people mistake Georgian because there was a kingdom in Roman times there called Iberia. But it has nothing to do with Latin languages. Maltese is also not Latin, but some people think it is as Malta is close to Italy.


Victor : a slight correction : Catalan (catalá) is an official language of a part of Spain (catalonia) as well as Galego in Galicia and Basque in the Basque country. So, Spain has 4 official languages with castillian the most important.

There is a third official language in Catalonia only , which is not for the rest of the country : the occitan or langue d´oc. The Aran Valley which is part of Spain has strong cultural ties with the french south west and declared the occitan as official. As Aran Valley is part of Catalonia, this region declared it official also.

The occitan language is the ancient language of southern france(Occitania), there are 6 dialects of it between the Pyrinees and the Alps, it is spoken from Limoges /Clermont Ferrand in the north until the southern cost. 2 million people have the occitan as its first language and some 10 million understand it.

It is interesting to note that most of the Rugby activity in France corresponds to cities of Occitania: Bayonne, Toulouse, Agen, Dax, Tarbes, Bordeaux, Brive, Castres, Beziers, Toulon, Montpellier, etc. So, a regional team of Occitania would look very much as a national team.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby vino_93 » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 22:13

I hardly think that 2 millions people have occitan as first language... For me, more or less nobody speak it regularly in France (not exactly nobody, but very few - regional languages aren't strong here, there has been a fight to o
put "standard" french as the only language spoken).

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 22:29

Yes, there are more Romance languages (Romance = languages that came from Latin) with regional official status. For exemple, Mirandese in Portugal; Sardinian, Ladin and Arpitan in Italy; Norman in Jersey and Guernsey; Aromenian in Albania and Macedonia....
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 12 Jun 2020, 22:48

And some very, very close brothers as Corsican to Sardinian, Balearic and Valencian to Catalan, Bable to Mirandese...

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby antlat » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 02:55

According to Total Rugby, Germany (and Netherlands, and China, and India et cetera) would be already out of the World Cup. No play-off between the various continental levels, this time


If this is true, what a disgrace.

These multi divisional tournaments are killing Regional Rugby Tournaments.

Rugby Africa has the right idea with their new African Championship. Single season Multi-round tournaments is the only way forward.

I cannot believe the infighting in the Americas either.All that effort by Agustin Pichot looks like will come to nothing.

I am really starting to loose interest in Rugby Union. The FIBA Competition system is way superior to rugby at the moment.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 06:04

Reading better the article I've seen that Netherlands and Switzerland are still in (but they have to complete the REC Trophy in autumn); and that it was directly Klaus Blank (current member of Rugby Europe council) to contact TotalRugby to explain them how the mechanism this time will work, so it's quite unlikely that his version was wrong or uncertain.
And the epidemic seems not involved in all this, it seems that they were going to use this system anyway.

To me it's an illogic decision because: a) a game with the status of World Cup Qualifier has an added value, and not informing the national federations about which were the game counting for the World Cup they wasted a big bulk of propaganda power; b) because it's not fair to the players and fans already eliminated; c) because they plan to build this Nations Championship (I don't like it) to give every nation a staircase to the World top, but then they somehow truncated the RWC qualifying that are already a staircase to the top of the World

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 15:53

Yes, because Netherlands and Switzerland are still to decide this year's Trophy title. They would face each other in the last round. Whoever wins plays for promotion.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby rey200 » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 16:28

man it's really the worst thing. There should be rules like a) every member union has the chance to qualify b) at least two matches have to played to be eliminated. something like this. The WCQ should be a big thing. I don't know why it's wasted like this.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby NaBUru38 » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 19:17

Losing the Americas Rugby Championship to get a direct spot in the World Cup... that would be the worst deal in the history of deals.

And if World Rugby decides to keep the old format... even worse.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby ficcp » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 22:35

vino_93 wrote:I hardly think that 2 millions people have occitan as first language... For me, more or less nobody speak it regularly in France (not exactly nobody, but very few - regional languages aren't strong here, there has been a fight to o
put "standard" french as the only language spoken).


UNESCO has declared Occitan as a language in danger of dissparearence. The figure of 2 million corresponds to the last register in accordance with Wikipedia (2001) and comprehends the 6 dialects : gascon, lemosin, auvernhat, lengadocian, provencau and vivaro-aupenc.

There are cultural organisations requesting a bilingual education in the south west of France. There are radios and TV channels which broadcast in langue d´oc. The musical group "Los de Nadau" is an important promoter of occitain culture and language, the have wonderful songs.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby ficcp » Sat, 13 Jun 2020, 22:51

NADAU has a presentation dedicated to Rugby called "Lo Nhacar" ( a Haka) and a love song also dedicated to Rugby : " taus uehls de Loise"

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby vino_93 » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 08:04

I don't deny some people are speaking it, but during all my travels in France, I've never heard someone speaking it.
In fact the only place where I've heard people speaking local language was in Alsace. I guess in Corsica their language is quite alive too. The others...

Regional languages are more or less dying. Of course there are people who want to preserve it, but outside of the old people, nobody speaks it regularly. Understanding is another story... as capacity to speak it if needed.
But as main language, I doubt there are many people speaking a regional language as first language. Everyone speaks French. That's the way our country was developed for the last century.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby vino_93 » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 09:00

And here are the datas from the last study in 1999 in France :
https://www.francetvinfo.fr/societe/com ... 52677.html

Outside of Créole, which is the language from Caribbean, you had :
- 1 310 000 people who can speak one of oïl language (Picard, Chtimi, Normand, Champenois, Lorrain, Bourguignon, Gallo,...); only 580 000 speaks it regularly.
- 1 200 000 people can speak one of occitan language; only 600 000 speaks it regularly.
- 880 000 people can speak Alsacian & Franconian; 650 000 speaks it regularly.
- 880 000 people can speak Breton; only 280 000 speaks it regularly.
- 210 000 people can speak Francoprovençal; only 80 000 speaks it regularly.
- 180 000 people can speak Corsican; only 70 000 speaks it regularly.
- Then you can 110 000 regular speakers of Catalan, 50 000 of Basque, 30 000 of Flemish ...
And that was in 1999. It was mostly spoken by old people.
In 1999, 74% people spoke only French. In 2011, 86%. And 93% for those who grew up in metropolitan france ... datas are showing that all regional languages are disappearing, as school doesn't teach it a lot.

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