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Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 09:47

vino_93 wrote:In 1999, 74% people spoke only French. In 2011, 86%. And 93% for those who grew up in metropolitan france ... datas are showing that all regional languages are disappearing, as school doesn't teach it a lot.

Only for teens as third language, isn't it? I was always surprised by that.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 11:38

Can someone clarify what's happening in Europe? Some teams are already eliminated?????

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 13:07

Apparently yes as only Rugby Europe Championship from 2021 and 2022 has been announced as RWC qualifier. So only the six teams in 2021 REC would be in contention.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 13:40

fuck this sport.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 15:51

It's strange that so far nobody apart TotalRugby, a private website, complained in any way.
Between Europe and Asia there are around 30 or 40 member nations apparently cut off from the World Cup qualifying, supposedly the apex of their activity, and at least on their websites I haven't read any protest or even just any discussion or doubt

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby ficcp » Sun, 14 Jun 2020, 18:20

vino_93 wrote:I don't deny some people are speaking it, but during all my travels in France, I've never heard someone speaking it.
In fact the only place where I've heard people speaking local language was in Alsace. I guess in Corsica their language is quite alive too. The others...

Regional languages are more or less dying. Of course there are people who want to preserve it, but outside of the old people, nobody speaks it regularly. Understanding is another story... as capacity to speak it if needed.
But as main language, I doubt there are many people speaking a regional language as first language. Everyone speaks French. That's the way our country was developed for the last century.


There are many different sources with divergent figures respect to occitan speakers in France. I do not pretend to know the definitive one, because all of them are estimates.

The french national policy has been always towards the full unification of the Language (langue d´oil) unlike countries like Spain , Belgium , Italy, Switzerland,etc which recognize the existence of different cultures within the country and therefore the right of regional languages to exist and be thought in the Public educational sistem. Those central states provide resources for Education in regional languages as a second language.
The recognition of other cultures such as the bretons, the basques, the corses , the alsaciens, etc can only enrich a state. Full recognition implies the possibility to teach the regional language to children and youngsters, which is currently carried out in Occitania (Gascogne) through a system called "calandreta": It is a bilingual school not part of the public system. No doubt the French language is the most important in the whole country, but to be bilingual is a benefit for the peolple not a disadvantage.

The Occitane culture as well as the language are alive in the south of France and will keep improving.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 Jun 2020, 06:49

Armchair Fan wrote:Apparently yes as only Rugby Europe Championship from 2021 and 2022 has been announced as RWC qualifier. So only the six teams in 2021 REC would be in contention.


In theory the two top teams of the Trophy Netherlands and Switzerland aren't out yet, so 8 teams.

To be honest, I 've never liked the system, that a second-division-team has a higher chance to qualify as a mid-table top division team, but is just and gave rugby what rugby needs: marketing options.
To be out of the World Cup before even playing a single game after the qualification route is announced is simply a joke and unacceptable. So how on earth do you announce such schedules? Who is to blame in Rugby Europe?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby antlat » Mon, 15 Jun 2020, 08:21

World Rugby could do a variation of the below system from CONCACAF in the FIFA World Cup Qualifiers and apply it to each region.

On 10 July 2019, CONCACAF announced a restructured qualifying format for the 2022 FIFA World Cup.[2] After CONCACAF initially announced in March 2018 that they would use the CONCACAF Ranking Index to determine the seeding of CONCACAF teams for qualifying to international tournaments,[3] it was determined that FIFA Rankings would be used instead.

Top-seeded Hexagonal group:
The top 6 ranked CONCACAF teams based on the FIFA rankings of June 2020 will play home-and-away round-robin matches in one single group (often referred to as the "Hexagonal").
The top three teams will qualify for the World Cup, and the fourth-placed team will advance to the CONCACAF play-off round.

Lower-seeded group stage and knockout stage:
The remaining CONCACAF teams (ranked 7 to 35 based on the FIFA rankings of June 2020) will be divided into eight groups (five groups of four teams and three groups of three teams) to play home-and-away round-robin matches. The winners of each group will advance to a knockout stage, consisting of the quarter-finals, semi-finals and final to be played in a two-legged home-and-away series. The winner of the knockout stage will advance to the CONCACAF play-off round.

Play-off round:
The fourth-placed team of the Hexagonal group will face the winner of the knockout stage in order to advance to the inter-confederation play-offs.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 Jun 2020, 08:27

antlat wrote:World Rugby could do a variation of the below system from CONCACAF in the FIFA World Cup Qualifiers and apply it to each region.

On 10 July 2019, CONCACAF announced a restructured qualifying format for the 2022 FIFA World Cup.[2] After CONCACAF initially announced in March 2018 that they would use the CONCACAF Ranking Index to determine the seeding of CONCACAF teams for qualifying to international tournaments,[3] it was determined that FIFA Rankings would be used instead.

Top-seeded Hexagonal group:
The top 6 ranked CONCACAF teams based on the FIFA rankings of June 2020 will play home-and-away round-robin matches in one single group (often referred to as the "Hexagonal").
The top three teams will qualify for the World Cup, and the fourth-placed team will advance to the CONCACAF play-off round.

Lower-seeded group stage and knockout stage:
The remaining CONCACAF teams (ranked 7 to 35 based on the FIFA rankings of June 2020) will be divided into eight groups (five groups of four teams and three groups of three teams) to play home-and-away round-robin matches. The winners of each group will advance to a knockout stage, consisting of the quarter-finals, semi-finals and final to be played in a two-legged home-and-away series. The winner of the knockout stage will advance to the CONCACAF play-off round.

Play-off round:
The fourth-placed team of the Hexagonal group will face the winner of the knockout stage in order to advance to the inter-confederation play-offs.


I don't see this happening at all. Too complicated. Lets just stay with the playoff-games of the first of every division. If they want to get rid of it: fair enough, but then announce it NOW for 2027.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby vino_93 » Mon, 15 Jun 2020, 09:01

Armchair Fan wrote:
vino_93 wrote:In 1999, 74% people spoke only French. In 2011, 86%. And 93% for those who grew up in metropolitan france ... datas are showing that all regional languages are disappearing, as school doesn't teach it a lot.

Only for teens as third language, isn't it? I was always surprised by that.


Mostly yes. And you have too some private school mostly in regional languages, but very few.
Mostly, it misses places where you can learn it.

In fact, to understand it, you need to come back to the French Revolution.
At this time, the governement wanted to unify the nation. So they start to impose French as the only language, as very few people used it. They imposed it as the school language. Then under Napoleon it decreases a bit, but under Third Empire, the same rule came back. Jules Ferry, known as the father of the modern school, fought again regional languages. Same goal as previously : unify the nation, unify the education.
If you spoke a regional language, you were beaten in public. So in the family, it became a question of honour not to speak these languages. You needed to show that you were educated. For example, the grand parents of one of my grand mother spoke picard mostly. At school, there children had to learn in French, but at home they spoke mostly picard with their parents. But when they founded their home, they let picard for interacting with their parents, and spoke only french between them. My grand-mother had to spoke only french. She understood picard, but didn't speak it well. And now, neither my mom nor me spoke picard, and we don't understand it (a few words, nothing more).

So you know we are a very centralized state. This was a part of it. "Killing" local identity, or at least aseptic it; to do one global french identity. That's the same with imigration, where you had to kill your old identity to become french; and where there's no difference if you're born in France, Sénégal, Italia or Australia once you become french.
I guess, it come from the big differences inside our country. You have people with Mediterranean culture, places which were italians, which shares similar culture with Italia or Spain. Some with Germanic cultures, some other with flemish cultures, some celts, some normands, ... and finally, the state from the Lights always wanted to unify everyone under a single banner. I guess, partly by philosophy, partly by the fear of loosing some regions which could have join another state, being culturally clother to it.


Now you have many accents when you speak french, who derived from the regional languages. But these languages are more or less all dying. The one who used it, mostly the old people, are dying. And there are only a few children which can speak it well, and even less which are using it regularly. So ...




And so for ficcp : to be clear with you, I'm not against regional languages. I'm all for them. I just describe you their reality in current France.

And just to be clear too : "classic" french isn't Langue d'Oïl. It's one of the Langue d'Oïl (even if now, there's a split and it's mostly see as outside of this group). You have many different languages, close to french but not the same.

And so yes, you have some private schools which teaches regional languages. Same in Brittany, in Basque Country, in Catalonia, in Alsace. But it doesn't help to expand the language. It just help not to die. There are too few children in these school to make it bigger than what it is now. Dying languages. Those languages don't have a "bright future", and aren't improving at all. They are all dying. That's a fact. You can try to preserve it, but that's very slow. And in fact, there's not one occitan language, but many different. I wouldn't pretend a Gascon could fully understand a Provençal ...

The culture will always exist, it's not in danger. Regional feasts, traditions, meals, ... It won't disappear, it's not in danger. But for one part it, the language, that's different. Some words passed in French, or are locally used. [[For example, "endives" (same word in french than in english) are called in northern france (as in Wallonia, so more or less in three zone of oïl language : Wallon, Chtimi, Picard) "chicons".]] Some people might understand it, some phrases and banners can still be used as traditions.

But mostly, they are in high danger. All the regional languages are less and less spoken, & some might already have mostly disappeared ...




And for the others : sorry for the off-topic, maybe someone could put it in another place to continue this very interesting topic ? :thumbup:

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Mon, 15 Jun 2020, 10:22

Wikipedia is trying to give an help offering pages also in some local languages
This, for example, is the page about "rugby" in sardinian (the language of the big italian island of Sardinia) https://sc.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby

About the RWC qualifying, I think that cutting off a priori some (many) nations would be a pity also because it risks to make the fans of those nations a bit less attracted by the RWC. If your national team took part to the qualifying, even if it was quickly eliminated, you feel more involved in the World Cup, because you think to be really part of it; but if your team was excluded without playing, maybe you feel to be in front of a "closed shop", like this forum often says about other competitions, and there's the risk you lose empathy with the tournament

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Raven » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 11:06

Right, so if we want to be "romantic", yes, it´s terribly unfair that some teams are disqualified of the qualy to the RWC2023, 3 years prior to the tournament with almost no chances to change this - it´s not great PR to sell a gobal sport, but let´s face it, it´s become quite clear that most countries in the Top8 aren´t looking for any sort of expansion. Now, if we are realistic, none or almost all of those eliminated countries would qualify anyway. This doesn´t erase the fact that they should at least play a meaningful game between now and the next RWC cycle, otherwise how would they get to release their players?

IMPO, if there´s a continent where a "surprise result" could occur would be Europe, and this is what it strikes me the most, did they know this prior to the election too?

I´m happy they are at least keeping the Repechage Round Robin tournament, that´s the only "fairly won" spot.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 12:10

What I hate about it, that it fits so much about the idiotic elitist plague that keeps rugby back. "They won't qualify anyway" should never be an argument for anything in sport (I know that you didn't say that, Raven).
No team should be out of a world cup qualification until the route is announced. Otherwise it is not a sport, but a joke. And rugby is often a sad joke from an administrative point of view and I don't care if its World Rugby's or Rugby Europe's fault, Beaumont and Pichot or Laurel and Hardy. Simply a sad joke.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Tue, 16 Jun 2020, 14:20

It might be just an misunderstanding because WR's press release was bad and forgot Europe's lower divisions Repechage.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 08:22

victorsra wrote:It might be just an misunderstanding because WR's press release was bad and forgot Europe's lower divisions Repechage.

The totalrugby.de article claims this is not the case


"Wir hatten [...] spekuliert, dass es ein Playoff-Spiel zwischen den einzelnen Staffeln geben werde, auch damit jedes europäische Team zumindest eine theoretische Chance auf den World Cup hat. [...]
Seitdem hat uns aber Klaus Blank, Ex-DRV-Präsident und aktuell Mitglied im Rugby-Europe-Council, kontaktiert und den Prozess klargestellt. Blank erläutert, dass die Playoff-Spiele zwischen den vier EM-Ebenen von Rugby Europe in diesem WM-Zyklus weggefallen sind, da die Spielzeiten Jahr für Jahr und nicht mehr in einer Zwei-Jahres-Gesamtwertung gezählt werden und so eine Qualifikation von der untersten Ebene in angemessener Zeit möglich sei."
http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/10249/410/

We speculated [...] that there will be a playoff-game between the different divisons, so every European team had a theoretical chance to reach the World Cup. Since then Klaus Blank, fromer DRV-president and member of the Rugby Europe council, contacted us and told us about the process. Blank explained, that the playoff-games between the different divisions were scraped as there is promotion/relegation every year and not every two years as before and therefore a qualification from the lowest level is prossible in a reasonable time-frame.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby wooden shoe » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 10:30

Blank explained, that the playoff-games between the different divisions were scraped as there is promotion/relegation every year and not every two years as before and therefore a qualification from the lowest level is prossible in a reasonable time-frame.


So, on this matter a fair system I think.

And roughly speaken in Europe 6 nations is pro, REC is mainly semi pro, and RET is mainly amateur. I consider the Netherlands as fully amateur. I see no reason why we should compete against pro teams at world level. These are different worlds. Let's first get better and enjoy the environment we are in, which we do.

What I would like though is when Oranje could compete against the no 17 to 32 countries in the world or 9 to 16 in Europe. A sort of WC or EC B tournement. But we don't have the means to organize that.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Dcl » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 11:43

Indeed, not so much wrong with the system for me for the reason you mention.

What bothers me though is the complete absense of communication from Rugby Nederland on the qualification announcement from World Rugby. Missed opportunity to inform the public that we are actually still in the race to qualify, and get some attention for the game against Switzerland (which they have not communicated about at all since the cancelation in March).

It would indeed be nice to see Oranje play the likes of Brazil, Chile, Namibia or Hong Kong, or a Tri Nations tournament between Germany, Netherlands and Belgium. I don't think I have ever seen them play an official game outside of the 5 RET they play each year.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 12:03

wooden shoe wrote:
And roughly speaken in Europe 6 nations is pro, REC is mainly semi pro, and RET is mainly amateur. I consider the Netherlands as fully amateur. I see no reason why we should compete against pro teams at world level. These are different worlds. Let's first get better and enjoy the environment we are in, which we do.


I completely disagree. You are one single step away from competing at the REC on I have no doubts, that you are close to that level. One semi-pro-setup and you are there. But only games against the best teams give you the chance to realize that and maybe get the important sponsors to make the next step on board. The playoff-game against Russia for RWC 2015 gave German rugby a big push imho, when we lead Russia until the last 5 minutes.
Seeing no reason to play better sides, is to be frank: blindness and a sign of fawning with no ambition.

The more I think about it, the more I think that these games were actually not as bad as I thought, but maybe even one of the most useful tools in Europe to promote rugby.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby wooden shoe » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 13:30

We have a nice stable balance between club rugby and the national teams now. In Holland rugby and allmost all sports have a strong club culture. Volunteers running clubs enjoying "gezelligheid". A word I can 't really translate, but you as neighbour will understand ;). There is no rugby in schools. No rugby in companies. No big (private) sponsors. We have to keep growing steadily. Bottom up. Earn the trust of the mothers to leave their children behind at a club.

Off course we can make another step with the national team if we would have a budget of at least 1 million euro. But that is very fragile, when the money tap is closed there will be big a fall.
We have no Wild guy. We are a calvinist country. Companies don't sponsor for fun, we don't have show off sugar daddies.

There is am ambition though. But it seems hard for young players to break through abroad. We don't adapt in France as easy as Belgians f.e. And if they break through we never see them back.

I have always wondered a bit that on this forum there seems to be a way of thinking that bringing money to a country will bring development, but I think it is the other way around. In Holland every rugbyplayer contributed extra to the union to prevent bankruptcy after too much investments in the sevens ladies program. There is pride we did this together and where we stand now. We are building from there and happy with that.
Last edited by wooden shoe on Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 13:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby wooden shoe » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 13:38

Off course I want to play better teams, but don't stare blind on this single ridiculus road that the old boys of world rugby offer.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 13:58

wooden shoe wrote:We have a nice stable balance between club rugby and the national teams now. In Holland rugby and allmost all sports have a strong club culture. Volunteers running clubs enjoying "gezelligheid". A word I can 't really translate, but you as neighbour will understand ;). There is no rugby in schools. No rugby in companies. No big (private) sponsors. We have to keep growing steadily. Bottom up. Earn the trust of the mothers to leave their children behind at a club.

Off course we can make another step with the national team if we would have a budget of at least 1 million euro. But that is very fragile, when the money tap is closed there will be big a fall.
We have no Wild guy. We are a calvinist country. Companies don't sponsor for fun, we don't have show off sugar daddies.

There is am ambition though. But it seems hard for young players to break through abroad. We don't adapt in France as easy as Belgians f.e. And if they break through we never see them back.

I have always wondered a bit that on this forum there seems to be a way of thinking that bringing money to a country will bring development, but I think it is the other around. In Holland every rugbyplayer contributed extra to the union to prevent bankruptcy after too much investments in the sevens ladies program. There is pride we did this together and where we stand now. We are building from there and happy with that.


In German the word is "Geselligkeit", so I know what you mean ;) Maybe "just for the social aspect" could be a good translation to English
Actually I base this on my impression, that I think that you are standing extremely well with the development part already. Haven't considered the calvinistic influence with sponsorship tbh though.
My wife's sister married a Dutch and lives in the Netherlands so now that you mentioned it, that's an interesting point. I still think 1 million is a doable sum, maybe not for now, but not totally out of reach.
This road is actually Rugby Europe's way and at least it is a road without a bouncer on the door to REC.

Btw what happened with the 8-team-REC? Wasn't that the plan? A better road to stay with your good analogy.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 14:01

RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:It might be just an misunderstanding because WR's press release was bad and forgot Europe's lower divisions Repechage.

The totalrugby.de article claims this is not the case


"Wir hatten [...] spekuliert, dass es ein Playoff-Spiel zwischen den einzelnen Staffeln geben werde, auch damit jedes europäische Team zumindest eine theoretische Chance auf den World Cup hat. [...]
Seitdem hat uns aber Klaus Blank, Ex-DRV-Präsident und aktuell Mitglied im Rugby-Europe-Council, kontaktiert und den Prozess klargestellt. Blank erläutert, dass die Playoff-Spiele zwischen den vier EM-Ebenen von Rugby Europe in diesem WM-Zyklus weggefallen sind, da die Spielzeiten Jahr für Jahr und nicht mehr in einer Zwei-Jahres-Gesamtwertung gezählt werden und so eine Qualifikation von der untersten Ebene in angemessener Zeit möglich sei."
http://www.totalrugby.de/content/view/10249/410/

We speculated [...] that there will be a playoff-game between the different divisons, so every European team had a theoretical chance to reach the World Cup. Since then Klaus Blank, fromer DRV-president and member of the Rugby Europe council, contacted us and told us about the process. Blank explained, that the playoff-games between the different divisions were scraped as there is promotion/relegation every year and not every two years as before and therefore a qualification from the lowest level is prossible in a reasonable time-frame.


That claim doesn't make any sense because ok, now it is anual promotion/relegation, but the RWC Qualy is still REC's aggregated table of 2 years. If a team is indeed promoted from year 1 to year 2 of the RWC Qualy they don't enter the Qualy in the middle. Their results are just not counted. Right?
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 14:14

victorsra wrote:That claim doesn't make any sense because ok, now it is anual promotion/relegation, but the RWC Qualy is still REC's aggregated table of 2 years. If a team is indeed promoted from year 1 to year 2 of the RWC Qualy they don't enter the Qualy in the middle. Their results are just not counted. Right?


Good point. No idea. Counting only one year would have the problem that home-games simply still offer huge advantages. :roll:
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby victorsra » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 14:26

Unless they are basicaly saying that promoted team must be like REC champions to go at least to the Repechage.

Let's have a look at the 2012-14 REC, that was RWC 2015 Qualy (the 2019 RWC is messed up). The 3rd places team of 2012-14 had agreggated 28 points. To achieve 28 points in 1 years you basicaly need to be champions with a Grand Slam.
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Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 Qualifying

Postby Canalina » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 14:44

The words of the two netherlander fans anyway make me changing a bit opinion. In an ideal world it would be perfect to have all the nations competing for the final phase, but in the real world it's not easy to be realized.
The last edition's European qualifying play-off seemed a bit a patch, with the Division 1 & 2 teams basically with no hopes and with few thrilling in the games (I think to remember that a nation, Malta?, even withdrew from the qualifying to save money, but I'm not sure about).
Rugby is not soccer and, as we sometime say, you can't have England and San Marino in the same pool, so it's not easy to imagine a comprehensive, balanced and attractive qualifying path. The new Africa Cup format permits to have all the WR member nations at the stakes, but it's far from being perfect: the four teams eliminated in the first round play only that match and also the other teams have just a fist of fixtures. In Oceania they are somehow lucky because they have basically just two categories: Samoa/Tonga and the rest. In the Americas the qualifying path is still a question mark.
Anyway I still think that they should have at least informed the fans that the games of the past seasons were already part of the qualifying way; the problem is that, as Victorsra remembered, the first (virtual) european qualifying games for the RWC 2023 were in 2017, and it sounds a bit confusing to play a game qualifying for the World Cup 2023 two years before the World Cup 2019

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