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WR Presidential Elections

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:03

Armchair Fan wrote:
carbonero wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:I believe Agustín Pichot really needs to do a deep analysis of what failed in his campaign. Most of it was based on defending emerging nations, yet their vote was completely divided. If you can't make them rally around you there isn't much to hope for.

How would you have done that? Is it as simple as it sounds?

Of course not. But maybe sending open letters to fans wasn't the most effective approach when you see your rivals offering test matches and rules changes directly aimed at convincing these votes.

Pichot proposals (Nations Championship, eligibility) are blanket-like. One for all. If you don't like it, that's what I've got. It's honest, but it doesn't win you elections. It scared some votes. Maybe the approach wasn't the best one, you need power to drive change even at the expense of having to moderate your message.

Pichot screwed in his proposal. It wasn't clearly good for T2s, because the vast majority of them would be basically in the lower divisions. And it was bad for T1s like Scotland and Italy, afraid of losing money with a relegation.

He needed a much better model to have secured his goal. IMO he tried to be good for T1s, with a 12-teams elite division, to have their blessing, and in the end he was bad for everybody (apart from southern superpowers like NZ or SA that had nothing to object... ).

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Thomas » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:13

Pichot needs a data analyst to understand what went wrong, He should have controlled his message to the right audiences from the very beginning, sending his message to the fans is not the target audience he needed to address the people who voted.

His scatter gun approach to the fans shows he doesn't have the acumen of Laporte or Beaumont. Laporte delivered Africa, aside from the 1 interview pointed to me he didn't deliver any concrete message to Africa. Further his eligibility stance cost him Tonga and Samoa that is where he lost the votes.

Also his message to T2's wasn't clear and was willing to sacrifice Scotland and Italy. The fact he still doesn't understand how 6N works cost him particularly the 12 teams proposal.

SH voted for him because that is his base and didn't affect the power base of NZ and SA play both sides of the hemisphere. Forget Australia they are out of the picture for some time and McLean had nothing to lose.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Canalina » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:18

victorsra wrote:The 2 RAN voters are a Bermudian and a Mexican. Maybe the Bermudian (Bermuda is still British territory) voted for Beaumont indeed. RAN hasn't published how they decided.

This fact that a latin is supposed to vote a latin, an anglosaxon to vote an anglosaxon... is quite disappointing; I'm not accusing no-one, I just hope these hypothesis are not funded on truth

victorsra wrote:What is the destiny of Pichot?

I think he said that in case of non-election he would have returned to be a simple counselor in CASI (the Argentinian club), but I've read just the title of the article about

victorsra wrote:Based on which accusations?
On the German accusation that he hasn't put the votes in discussion with the RE Comitee.... which is serious, IF true. If it is ilegal, against RE constitutution, I don't know. But definitly imoral.

Oh, but he is not Latin American to act favouring personal interests. Sorry. Forgot that moral logic.

It is unfair and unjust, like it was unfair and unjust the immediate embedding of Pineyrua (today he, president of Sudamerica Rugby, defined Pichot "el nuestro grande lider"). Your rants about Latin Americans are kiddish, no one here ever made distinctions between Europeans and Sudamericans. Apart you

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Canalina » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:18

victorsra wrote:But, as Armchair said, other Unions/Federations weren't transparent either, so.... it only shows where rugby's problems lie. And people here complained when some Unions were honest informing the community who they are voting for... ridiculous

If the vote is secret, to tell who you are voting is unfair. I don't think it's so difficult to understand

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:20

Tonga doesn't vote.

I agree with you, but the proposal itself was dubious enough to make everybody see him as a solution. Instead, many opted for "Beaumont's safe hands". People talked about Pichot's "PR machine", but it was Beaumont that made a very silly message echoate: that he Beaumont is "safe" (whatever this means, and this means at best you know how you are being screwed... and this somehow is better...) and Pichot isn't.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:21

Canalina wrote:
victorsra wrote:But, as Armchair said, other Unions/Federations weren't transparent either, so.... it only shows where rugby's problems lie. And people here complained when some Unions were honest informing the community who they are voting for... ridiculous

If the vote is secret, to tell who you are voting is unfair. I don't think it's so difficult to understand


No, it is transparency. I'm sure you want to know for what the politicians you voted for are voting in Italy's parliament. No matter if they have the right in the parliament to have secret votes. I'm sure you want to have a clue if they are throwing your vote in the garbage or not.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby erik2 » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:23

I don't think Pichot would have won the elections, whatever he had done. I even think it was closer than what was expected

My prediction for the next 4 years, are South Africa announcing joining the six nations, Pacific Islanders like Tuilagis,vunipolas and Piutaus joining Samoa, Tonga. And not much more.

Maybe I am a big pessimist but I just cannot see much change under Beaumont in the next 4 years

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Canalina » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:25

So make the vote open and not secret. But as far as the vote is secret to confess publicly your vote is unfair versus the other voters

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Rumpelstilzchen » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:30

amz wrote:Maybe these can go freely on twitter but for me an administrative body which tweets odd articles and than removed them does not sound serious. Everywhere in this world, accusations must be supported by proofs or at least serious clues and must be done official (not anonymously, not trough deleted tweets and stuff like this).

totalrugby.de is a reputable source. But even though people are suggesting it, they are NOT tied with the DRV, they are independent. They quote Klaus Blank who is on the RE board, so I do believe what they write is true.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:31

Canalina wrote:So make the vote open and not secret. But as far as the vote is secret to confess publicly your vote is unfair versus the other voters



No, it is not unfair. Vote are secret in politics and it is pretty common to see influencial people and politicians declaring the vote. The right exist to protect you in a menacing situation. It doesn't make it wrong if you decide to declare.

In the case of voters that represent other voters, it is desirable that they tell what they did. Just like you want to know what politicians you elect are voting for.
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Thomas » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:32

victorsra wrote:Tonga doesn't vote.

I agree with you, but the proposal itself was dubious enough to make everybody see him as a solution. Instead, many opted for "Beaumont's safe hands". People talked about Pichot's "PR machine", but it was Beaumont that made a very silly message echoate: that he Beaumont is "safe" (whatever this means, and this means at best you know how you are being screwed... and this somehow is better...) and Pichot isn't.



I meant Samoa and Fiji, but it also affects Tonga..

Yes Beaumont is safe is as old as timeless electioneering reminds of the old Eddie Murphy movie the distinguished gentlemen, He use the moniker to get elected to congress because he had the same name as his predecessor with the slogan "name you know."

Hence why Beaumont got elected.

Voting should be open, clear and transparent. All Politicians in Britain votes are open and are on the Hansard record to see what your representative voted for.

The election of the chairman is by the elected representatives of the unions and should be open in that aspect.
Last edited by Thomas on Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Canalina » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:33

The reaction of Pichot was better than how I expected

Agustín Pichot
@AP9_
·
4h
Felicitaciones Bill/Congratulations Bill!!!
No se dio. Gracias a todos!!!! De corazon / Not this time, thanks to all fo the support , from the bottom of my heart. #globalgame

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby carbonero » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:46

Armchair Fan wrote:But maybe sending open letters to fans wasn't the most effective approach when you see your rivals offering test matches and rules changes directly aimed at convincing these votes.

If he caved on eligibility to get more votes, he would look like a hypocrite and other federations like Georgia could pull their support. About test matches, SANZAAR can’t offer games within the windows as easy as Europe. Only the token match in July agreed in San Francisco. Moreover, two of the nations that voted against him, Japan and Fiji, were part of the first division in his NL proposal.


Armchair Fan wrote:Pichot proposals (Nations Championship, eligibility) are blanket-like. One for all. If you don't like it, that's what I've got. It's honest, but it doesn't win you elections. It scared some votes. Maybe the approach wasn't the best one, you need power to drive change even at the expense of having to moderate your message.

Isn’t Beaumont’s NL blanket-like and even worse? Aren't other blanket-like proposals, like more representation in the council, attractive for every T2? I also don’t see where he could moderate his message to sound more appealing to Africa, Europe, Japan or Canada.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:55

Canalina wrote:The reaction of Pichot was better than how I expected

Agustín Pichot
@AP9_
·
4h
Felicitaciones Bill/Congratulations Bill!!!
No se dio. Gracias a todos!!!! De corazon / Not this time, thanks to all fo the support , from the bottom of my heart. #globalgame


Rugby is still rugby :)

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby amz » Sat, 02 May 2020, 18:56

kind of doubt since 2018

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:06

amz wrote:kind of doubt since 2018

outrageous stuff always happened. Rugby has a huge nasty curriculum, we just don't like to admit. But it is good when people remember what is was supposed to be and act according to it.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:12

Positive:
Beaumont has promised further reviews of World Rugby processes, and the influential UK press now seems aware of a lot of the injustices and poor processes so is now to some extent pushing this towards a fairer system.
Negative: It has become clear what power T2 voters had in this election. This will make the T1 block wary of expanding the voting base further.

Positive: Those with votes will surely recognise their power, particularly North America and Europe who arguably won it for Beaumont, and now demand that Beaumont dance with them.
Negative: They often have fairly shit ideas.

Positive: Beaumont will now want an achievement to look back on like Lapasset has bringing the RWC to Japan and the Olympics. The aim should be to try and build momentum for a 24 team world cup. That will be the biggest change for a generation and a lot of people seemed turned on by the talk of a "global game", they finally spoke louder than the "!MuH qUalIty!" crowd who want a reversion to a 16 or smaller RWC.

Negative: He'll probably view the nations cup as that legacy.

Negative: Genuinely, I don't say this from malice, but I've known Beaumont as a regulator and RFU committee man basically the whole time I've followed rugby. He's an idiot. He is not clever, not ambitious and not imaginative. At most we can expect a "better status quo".

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Thomas » Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:15

SK88

Where did Pichot lose it? 23 votes is a fair number...

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:16

Good analysis. There's, however, the Laporte factor. By 2023 he might be acting in a different direction from Beaumont to achieve what Pichot couldn't, but in a more moderate T1-friendly market-expansion-oriented approach. What this will mean? Don"t know.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:21

Question: is Beaumont allowed to be nominated for another reelection in 2024?

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:22

View from Odesa >> https://rugger.info/news/32839

Enjoy & rethink >> Use google-translate

Исполком: лица новые, но старые

Глядя на список членов нового исполнительного комитета World Rugby
с трудом верится, что наш спорт ожидают решительные изменения.

Поразительно, там нет Пишо! Нет представителей Азии!
Нет послов из стран второго и третьего эшелона!
Нет людей из Океании и Южной Америки!
То есть, нет никого из оппозиции.

...

Что-то грустно на душе, друзья. Хотя, кто знает, может оно и к лучшему.

Александр Скрамник

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 19:51

victorsra wrote:Question: is Beaumont allowed to be nominated for another reelection in 2024?

No:

https://www.world.rugby/handbook/bye-laws/bye-law-9

"9.8 Officers

9.8.1 Election of Chair and Vice-Chair

The Chair and Vice-Chair shall be elected from the Representatives usually but not necessarily at the Annual Meeting immediately following the Rugby World Cup Finals and shall hold office for a period of approximately four (4) years commencing immediately following their election until the earlier of (i) the Vice-Chair being required to relinquish their position in accordance with Bye-Law 10.3.1(c); or (ii) the Annual Meeting immediately following the Rugby World Cup Finals which falls approximately four (4) years after their election. The terms of service must be approved by the Executive Committee. They shall thereafter be eligible for re-election for one further term of four (4) years at the end of their first term of office."

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Canalina » Sat, 02 May 2020, 20:13

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:View from Odesa >> https://rugger.info/news/32839

Enjoy & rethink >> Use google-translate

Исполком: лица новые, но старые

Глядя на список членов нового исполнительного комитета World Rugby
с трудом верится, что наш спорт ожидают решительные изменения.

Поразительно, там нет Пишо! Нет представителей Азии!
Нет послов из стран второго и третьего эшелона!
Нет людей из Океании и Южной Америки!
То есть, нет никого из оппозиции.

...

Что-то грустно на душе, друзья. Хотя, кто знает, может оно и к лучшему.

Александр Скрамник

Executive Board: faces new but old

Looking at the list of members of the new World Rugby Executive Committee
it is hard to believe that our sport is expecting a decisive change.

Amazingly, there is no Pishot! No Asian representatives!
No second and third tier ambassadors!
No people from Oceania and South America!
That is, there is no one in the opposition.
...
Something sad in the shower, friends. Although, who knows, it may be for the better.
Александр Скрамник


-

As far as I know it was an open election: there were eight contenders for seven chairs, then the Fiji's one had to resign so the election of the other seven candidates became somewhat automatic.
I don't know, maybe there's some strict requisite to be a candidate, but the presence of the Rugby Afrique delegate seems suggesting that it's quite an open pathway

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 02 May 2020, 20:24

Thomas wrote:SK88

Where did Pichot lose it? 23 votes is a fair number...


Very good from Pichot, I didn't really comment on where he lost it or but I suppose by talking about where Beaumont won it by implication I did.

5 votes difference is obviously 3 votes swapping. Canada and Rugby Europe have publicly confirmed voting for Beaumont. So just taking them swapping would have seen Pichot win. So Beaumont, or whoever wants to succeed him, needs to maintain those votes or add others. So they will have to show willing to move in the direction these guys want.

Or get someone else to switch over of course.

Pichot did a great job, but obviously fell a bit short. I think he is still on council as Argentina's rep so hopefully he stays as a positive force and possibly tries again in 2024.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Pedro1 » Sat, 02 May 2020, 20:33

Canalina wrote: (...) seems suggesting that it's quite an open pathway


Ehr, kind of. If I'm not mistaken,you must be nominated and seconded by a voting member. Considering how many entities have a vote, it does limit a lot who can apply for election.

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