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WR Presidential Elections

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Armchair Fan » Sat, 02 May 2020, 20:55

carbonero wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:But maybe sending open letters to fans wasn't the most effective approach when you see your rivals offering test matches and rules changes directly aimed at convincing these votes.

If he caved on eligibility to get more votes, he would look like a hypocrite and other federations like Georgia could pull their support. About test matches, SANZAAR can’t offer games within the windows as easy as Europe. Only the token match in July agreed in San Francisco. Moreover, two of the nations that voted against him, Japan and Fiji, were part of the first division in his NL proposal.


Armchair Fan wrote:Pichot proposals (Nations Championship, eligibility) are blanket-like. One for all. If you don't like it, that's what I've got. It's honest, but it doesn't win you elections. It scared some votes. Maybe the approach wasn't the best one, you need power to drive change even at the expense of having to moderate your message.

Isn’t Beaumont’s NL blanket-like and even worse? Aren't other blanket-like proposals, like more representation in the council, attractive for every T2? I also don’t see where he could moderate his message to sound more appealing to Africa, Europe, Japan or Canada.

It's almost writing a new manifesto, but there are a lot of interesting proposals and points that I would have loved to be raised during this electoral campaign from a Tier 2 perspective that would have interested those who didn't vote for him:
- Being open with regard to Nations Championship. If his format was not well received he could have proposed others. For example a second-tier with 16 teams instead of 12 and two pools: less games per country, less likelihood of getting relegated to a third tier of an even lesser level
- Accepting the validity of San Francisco Agreement as long as a large consensus regarding Nations Championship isn't reached
- A clear example of global calendar and how he would negotiate with key pro leagues so national teams reliant on them would be able to perform in Nations Championship
- A commitment by SANZAAR to include Japan regardless of Nations Championship, giving them a path to a third vote at the Council
- An expansion of U20 WC and women's RWC to give further space to Tier 2 nations
- Exploring a way to increase even further Tier 2 representation at the Council, for example taking into account 7s RWC or women tournaments

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Pedro1 » Sat, 02 May 2020, 21:13

Armchair Fan wrote:- Exploring a way to increase even further Tier 2 representation at the Council, for example taking into account 7s RWC or women tournaments


I don't think 7s participation should be taken into account when it comes to voting. It might encourage smaller Nations to simply focus on a 7s Programm and give up on XVs.

I would like see 1 vote to every Union/federation who has fielded a men's XV in a WR sanctioned tournament (or a minimum of Test matches), at least once a year, for the past world cup cycle, pending review at the end of each 4year cycle. To give an advantage to countries who invest more, you would also get a vote if your women's XV can fill that criteria. And then a 3rd vote if your men's U18 or women's U18 can also fill that criteria.

It rewards the countries who are seriously committed to growing the game, without giving an easier loophole (7s) and still giving a small edge to the powers that be (6N/TRC)

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Canalina » Sat, 02 May 2020, 21:15

Pedro1 wrote:
Canalina wrote: (...) seems suggesting that it's quite an open pathway


Ehr, kind of. If I'm not mistaken,you must be nominated and seconded by a voting member. Considering how many entities have a vote, it does limit a lot who can apply for election.

Yes, it seems that every candidate must be nominated/purposed by a (con)federation part of the council and seconded by an other one.
But the presence in the council of the six continental confederations and of at least a T2 nations from every continent means that everyone has a not unlikely way to participate to the elections: I mean, an hypothetic german candidate could ask Rugby Europe to nominate him and to Georgia or Romania to second him; a PNG candidate could ask Oceania Rugby to nominate him and to Samoa or Australia to second him, and so on

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 May 2020, 21:20

And the criterea of who votes is absolutely outdated from WR itself: only countries that qualify for the men's 15s WC. Sevens and women's rugby don't count. Which makes no sense if WR itself says 1/3 of the votes must be reserved to women. Argentina has a female voter and Spain doesn't? Bizarre. Kenya is a major men's sevens power and it doesn't count? Isn't rugby Olympic and isn't WR talking all the time about it?

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby carbonero » Sat, 02 May 2020, 23:13

Armchair Fan wrote:It's almost writing a new manifesto, but there are a lot of interesting proposals and points that I would have loved to be raised during this electoral campaign from a Tier 2 perspective that would have interested those who didn't vote for him:
- Being open with regard to Nations Championship. If his format was not well received he could have proposed others. For example a second-tier with 16 teams instead of 12 and two pools: less games per country, less likelihood of getting relegated to a third tier of an even lesser level
- Accepting the validity of San Francisco Agreement as long as a large consensus regarding Nations Championship isn't reached
- A clear example of global calendar and how he would negotiate with key pro leagues so national teams reliant on them would be able to perform in Nations Championship
- A commitment by SANZAAR to include Japan regardless of Nations Championship, giving them a path to a third vote at the Council
- An expansion of U20 WC and women's RWC to give further space to Tier 2 nations
- Exploring a way to increase even further Tier 2 representation at the Council, for example taking into account 7s RWC or women tournaments

The Nations Championship is happening either way, the SF agreement is already valid, the global season vagueness also applies to Beaumont, Pichot has been consistent in promising that Japan will eventually join the TRC and his proposed changes to the council would most likely result in fringe nations like Spain, Russia, Hong Kong or Kenia getting direct representation.

You are basically saying that an expansion to the U20 and Women world cups is enough to swing votes. I know this particular proposal is popular in the forum, I would love if it happened, but I’ve never seen an official source, thus voters, lobby aggressively for it. Again, that is not enough to rally the T2 vote. Having all of them in the same page is a pipe dream.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 02 May 2020, 23:46

Guys, you need to stop thinking the Nations Championship was just a Pichot initiative. He was a driver of it, but the whole proposal was built by WR staff at the behest of the WR ExCo. Beaumont remains a part of that initiative. WR wants to generate more revenue for itself.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby TuMachNach » Sun, 03 May 2020, 01:55

victorsra wrote:What is the destiny of Pichot? He'll be again an WR council member from UAR? If SANZAAR survives COVID19, will Pichot lead it? Or we can expect to see him for 4 years in the shadows while Laporte starts to be the new centre of attention regardings reforms in rugby?


He made it clear in many interviews that if he lost, he would stay in Argentina to spend time with his family. Apart from that, he said he would return to CASI (URBA Club) with the intention of giving a hand to them (neither as player nor as Staff) but as an old member of the club. In some interviews he expressed he was opened to help other Unions mainly as consultant but he referred only to Regional Unions like SAR or Unions that compounds SAR which don't demand long travels.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sun, 03 May 2020, 02:14

He should continue to lead rugby in South America. South America has Pichot, Africa and Europe has Laport, and Asia Pacific region has Forrest. There needs to be global coordination, but then each region needs to generate income and grow the game within its region.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby ficcp » Sun, 03 May 2020, 03:22

I wish the new administrators a lot of success in the Management of a Sport with a lot of potential worldwide. The task to materialize that potential in concrete achievements is a huge one. Rugby has unique characteristics in their values and the way it is played. It holds people together through the years, independent of the role that each rugbier has at every moment of his life.
Administrators must not forget that they provide the clubs and players with a structure and organisation, but the base of the sport is at club level. Without players and clubs it wouldn´t be a need for administrators. All over the world are other sports competing for sponsorhip, media time and influence on the society.
Most important : they are competing for players . Rugby Union must offer to youngsters and children of the world the opportunity to develop themselves in a unique Sport. I hope the new Administration will extend the limits towards millions of potential players , men and women, who do not know Rugby or do not practice it yet.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 03 May 2020, 11:24

carbonero wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:It's almost writing a new manifesto, but there are a lot of interesting proposals and points that I would have loved to be raised during this electoral campaign from a Tier 2 perspective that would have interested those who didn't vote for him:
- Being open with regard to Nations Championship. If his format was not well received he could have proposed others. For example a second-tier with 16 teams instead of 12 and two pools: less games per country, less likelihood of getting relegated to a third tier of an even lesser level
- Accepting the validity of San Francisco Agreement as long as a large consensus regarding Nations Championship isn't reached
- A clear example of global calendar and how he would negotiate with key pro leagues so national teams reliant on them would be able to perform in Nations Championship
- A commitment by SANZAAR to include Japan regardless of Nations Championship, giving them a path to a third vote at the Council
- An expansion of U20 WC and women's RWC to give further space to Tier 2 nations
- Exploring a way to increase even further Tier 2 representation at the Council, for example taking into account 7s RWC or women tournaments

The Nations Championship is happening either way, the SF agreement is already valid, the global season vagueness also applies to Beaumont, Pichot has been consistent in promising that Japan will eventually join the TRC and his proposed changes to the council would most likely result in fringe nations like Spain, Russia, Hong Kong or Kenia getting direct representation.

You are basically saying that an expansion to the U20 and Women world cups is enough to swing votes. I know this particular proposal is popular in the forum, I would love if it happened, but I’ve never seen an official source, thus voters, lobby aggressively for it. Again, that is not enough to rally the T2 vote. Having all of them in the same page is a pipe dream.

Since the Nations Championship is happening anyway, it was up to him to prove his concept was better. If your natural partners (T2) are reluctant because the number of them playing T1 dramatically decreases under his proposal, there is little to gain. In 2018 we saw 6 T2 face T1. Under Nations Championship à la Pichot it wouldn't happen for at least two years and that's best case scenario (a Tier 1 getting relegated). If Tier 1 stayed always in the top tier it could take a decade.

San Francisco Agreement is valid, yet both candidates were proposing to kill it before it even happens.

Pichot has been promising Japan a spot at TRC but this hasn't happened and it falls under SANZAAR fault, just like Africa or PIs voting Beaumont are fault of SANZAAR.

One union, one vote proposal by Pichot relies on a deep reform that requires way over 50% in the Council. For that to happen he first needs to increase Tier 2 votes there, hence the need for Japan and another team to be included in TRC (2 extra votes), helping Tonga and Namibia to sort their issues to be represented, enlarging criteria, etc...

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby carbonero » Sun, 03 May 2020, 17:21

Again, which of your proposals would swing votes for Pichot? Your first argument was that manifestos won’t get you far in this election, that you needed more tangible promises like eligibility changes or test matches.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 04 May 2020, 03:06

I go away for a weekend and miss all the fun, lol. Oh well. I'm honestly not too surprised by this outcome, other than I thought it would be a little closer than 5 votes. Honestly, I think if Pichot had some more concrete proposals he could very well have won. He's a champion for T2/T3 nations, and you can tell he wants the game to expand beyond its borders. The problem was always going to be having a proposal that would actually work for everyone. I maintain that had he come to the table with a proposal to incorporate World Cup qualification for all nations he would have won the argument. The Nation Championship in its current form was never going to work. The thing coming out of this though is that nothing is going to change. The sport is on a knifes edge in the southern hemisphere and it's not going to change. Beaumont is not going to be a disaster for the sports, but neither is he going to implement anything meaningful over the next 4 years.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Bogdan_DC » Mon, 04 May 2020, 07:01

This is not a bad result for T2 countries. Georgia&Romania show their frustation on 6N, while Samoa&Fiji show their on 4N. My prediction is 24 teams in World cup 2027 and 16 teams in U20 2022. Rugby Europe should push for 6N to comeback in at least in u18 competitions.France son, Morariu, should do that through Laporte. Anyway Laporte is the new boss in WR for many years to come.
PS1. Life is strange, Romania voted Pichot and Spain against him
PS2. German rugby is the most not German thing from Germany? Talking unofficially, deleting tweets, retractions...they really looks like muppets.OK, even if is true what they said, who stop them to call or email RE to vote Pichot?

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 04 May 2020, 07:45

German Rugby is much more traditionally rugby than traditionally german.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 04 May 2020, 08:37

Bogdan_DC wrote:PS2. German rugby is the most not German thing from Germany? Talking unofficially, deleting tweets, retractions...they really looks like muppets.OK, even if is true what they said, who stop them to call or email RE to vote Pichot?


First problem seems that rugbypass mixed up totalrugby.de with DRV. There was no official statement by German rugby about it. There is a difference between an article published by a news site and an official statement. Rugbypass mixed it up.

As I stated before, this is more like a problem of Rugby Europe being financially dependent on the 6 Nations. There is a reason, the headqaurters are located in Paris, and my guess is that France might pay/ or participate in the payment of the RE headquarters. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 04 May 2020, 11:41

carbonero wrote:Again, which of your proposals would swing votes for Pichot? Your first argument was that manifestos won’t get you far in this election, that you needed more tangible promises like eligibility changes or test matches.

We will never agree on this. And what is worse, we will never find out the outcome of such hypothesis. But to me a strong engagement regarding Japan, Fiji, Samoa and Africa in what regards the increase of their political power and sporting calendar, regardless of Nations Championship as every actor knew it was a pipedream as exposed by his vision, could have been key. And this doesn't fall only on Pichot shoulders but SANZAAR. 6N beat them on their own backyard. There wasn't an explicit support for expansion of RWC either, I have even heard Pichot minimise the importance of such a move, which doesn't make of him an oppositor to the idea but obviously raises doubts for Europe and Africa.

Bogdan_DC wrote:This is not a bad result for T2 countries. Georgia&Romania show their frustation on 6N, while Samoa&Fiji show their on 4N. My prediction is 24 teams in World cup 2027 and 16 teams in U20 2022. Rugby Europe should push for 6N to comeback in at least in u18 competitions.France son, Morariu, should do that through Laporte. Anyway Laporte is the new boss in WR for many years to come.

Beaumont and Laporte talked yesterday about expansion to 24 teams
https://sport24.lefigaro.fr/rugby/actua ... 24.android

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby carbonero » Mon, 04 May 2020, 16:03

The promises towards the calendar are identical for the countries in question. And that new calendar will bring them the added political capital. Then, I respect Fiji for spurning SANZAAR. They are on the right here. Just don’t bring up that bullshit Marcoussis / French Barbarians package.

About the 24 team RWC, I’ve read interviews that say the opposite. I’ll give you that it wasn’t in the forefront of his campaign but at the same time South America has been leading that charge.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Blurandski » Tue, 05 May 2020, 02:49

Pichot was promising things that he could not deliver given the 6N blocking minority.

To break apart the 6Ns you need someone who is one of them, yet also not worried about retribution, for which Beaumont his the mark precisely.

Worth noting is that from 1994 to 2024 the WR/IRB Chairman has not been a British citizen for 8 years; Bernard Lapasset (FFR). Even with the new votes for the regional associations and T2 sides the 6N still have a decent grip of the voting structure.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 05 May 2020, 06:52

Armchair Fan wrote:Beaumont and Laporte talked yesterday about expansion to 24 teams
https://sport24.lefigaro.fr/rugby/actua ... 24.android


I actually did not understand that (maybe due to my poor French)
"Nous devons cependant, en vue de l’édition 2027, veiller à ce qu’il y ait de plus en plus de sélections compétitives afin de passer à vingt-quatre nations au lieu de vingt. "
My translation:
"For the 2027 edition we have to make sure, that we have more and more competitive national teams so we can go from 20 to 24 teams"

So Bill is actually using the old argument, that teams have to be competitive first to expand the RWC. Nothing new to see here. Would love, that you are right though, Armchair.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby vino_93 » Tue, 05 May 2020, 07:24

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Beaumont and Laporte talked yesterday about expansion to 24 teams
https://sport24.lefigaro.fr/rugby/actua ... 24.android


I actually did not understand that (maybe due to my poor French)
"Nous devons cependant, en vue de l’édition 2027, veiller à ce qu’il y ait de plus en plus de sélections compétitives afin de passer à vingt-quatre nations au lieu de vingt. "
My translation:
"For the 2027 edition we have to make sure, that we have more and more competitive national teams so we can go from 20 to 24 teams"

So Bill is actually using the old argument, that teams have to be competitive first to expand the RWC. Nothing new to see here. Would love, that you are right though, Armchair.

That's what he says, but just before Laporte says that the level increased a lot since a few years. So... And they want the nation's cup to help to increase the level of T2/T3.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 05 May 2020, 07:30

vino_93 wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Beaumont and Laporte talked yesterday about expansion to 24 teams
https://sport24.lefigaro.fr/rugby/actua ... 24.android


I actually did not understand that (maybe due to my poor French)
"Nous devons cependant, en vue de l’édition 2027, veiller à ce qu’il y ait de plus en plus de sélections compétitives afin de passer à vingt-quatre nations au lieu de vingt. "
My translation:
"For the 2027 edition we have to make sure, that we have more and more competitive national teams so we can go from 20 to 24 teams"

So Bill is actually using the old argument, that teams have to be competitive first to expand the RWC. Nothing new to see here. Would love, that you are right though, Armchair.

That's what he says, but just before Laporte says that the level increased a lot since a few years. So... And they want the nation's cup to help to increase the level of T2/T3.


C’est une volonté forte de World Rugby, de Bill et de moi-même. Créer un gros “Tier 2” (la deuxième division internationale, NDLR). Il est de l’intérêt du rugby d’aider à développer le plus de nations possible. Je prends souvent l’exemple de la Coupe du monde 2003. J’entraînais la France et, en poule, on a mis 50 points aux États-Unis, au Japon et aux Fidji. Dix-sept ans plus tard, on a du mal à battre les Japonais et les Fidjiens, on est accroché par les États-Unis. Ça montre que ces nations ont progressé.


I had the impression that he only speaks about the Non-cartel-nations (I hate the cast-system word tier2) who already qualified for the RWC. We all know that only 21 teams qualified for the last 3 RWCs.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 05 May 2020, 08:30

The term "tier 2" is redundant. There are now 11 tier 1 nations, and the other nations are "Emerging Nations".

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 05 May 2020, 11:25

I am 100% sure World Rugby officially stopped using "Tier 2" years and years ago. I think the nations were "Developing" then, there was also something about "High Performance 1", "Performance".

Only for them to start using it again later because nothing changes and its a useful short hand.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 05 May 2020, 12:12

sk 88 wrote:I am 100% sure World Rugby officially stopped using "Tier 2" years and years ago. I think the nations were "Developing" then, there was also something about "High Performance 1", "Performance".

Only for them to start using it again later because nothing changes and its a useful short hand.


"Emerging Nations" isn't useful at all. Are all teams that are not tier 1 nations now "emerging nations"? We still need to differentiate between tier 2 who will be in the Nations Championship, those teams in the third tier regional divisions, and those currently not in the Nations Championship at any level.

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Re: WR Presidential Elections

Postby vino_93 » Tue, 05 May 2020, 13:25

RugbyLiebe wrote:
vino_93 wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Beaumont and Laporte talked yesterday about expansion to 24 teams
https://sport24.lefigaro.fr/rugby/actua ... 24.android


I actually did not understand that (maybe due to my poor French)
"Nous devons cependant, en vue de l’édition 2027, veiller à ce qu’il y ait de plus en plus de sélections compétitives afin de passer à vingt-quatre nations au lieu de vingt. "
My translation:
"For the 2027 edition we have to make sure, that we have more and more competitive national teams so we can go from 20 to 24 teams"

So Bill is actually using the old argument, that teams have to be competitive first to expand the RWC. Nothing new to see here. Would love, that you are right though, Armchair.

That's what he says, but just before Laporte says that the level increased a lot since a few years. So... And they want the nation's cup to help to increase the level of T2/T3.


C’est une volonté forte de World Rugby, de Bill et de moi-même. Créer un gros “Tier 2” (la deuxième division internationale, NDLR). Il est de l’intérêt du rugby d’aider à développer le plus de nations possible. Je prends souvent l’exemple de la Coupe du monde 2003. J’entraînais la France et, en poule, on a mis 50 points aux États-Unis, au Japon et aux Fidji. Dix-sept ans plus tard, on a du mal à battre les Japonais et les Fidjiens, on est accroché par les États-Unis. Ça montre que ces nations ont progressé.


I had the impression that he only speaks about the Non-cartel-nations (I hate the cast-system word tier2) who already qualified for the RWC. We all know that only 21 teams qualified for the last 3 RWCs.

He talks about a big tiers 2. He says it's in rugby interest to develop the most nation as possible. Then he talks about last France games vs t2... Hard to know if he thinks bigger than RWC nations or not.

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