Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Blurandski » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 02:00

Armchair Fan wrote:This is not about increasing the competitiveness of Tier 2, only Pacific Islanders would benefit clearly from this. It's about keeping Samoa and Tonga artificially afloat with a quick fix. And I know my team would benefit, but it still isn't right and fair to Georgia, Uruguay...


Nothing is worse than the idea to keep NZ B Blues and NZ C Reds alive via this.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Tobar » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 12:33

amz wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
amz wrote:When talking about Samoa and Tonga, we are talking about countries with 500k and 200k population and huge emigration. Alone on islands resources they'll become irrelevant in time. They benefit a lot from Australian and Kiwi junior systems even nowdays. How do you think we'll hurt them in long run?


Samoa and Tonga have populations of 200k and 100k. But there are probably just as many living elsewhere.


Yes, my bad, I recalled the numbers corectly but I confused with actual population of the islands. Samoa have 200k and with emigration is close to 500k. Tonga have 100k and a migration of roughly 100k.

The emigration basically doubles the population and imho is a resources that cannot be ignored on the long run. Same as Spain does with its French emigration for example.


Those players are more than welcome to play for Tonga or Samoa. Nothing is stopping them. The choice here is to play for a different country first, then go as a back up option to another country. Fuck that.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 19:05

sk 88 wrote:The problems I see:

Either this is allowed for all countries or only for "Tier 2".

If allowed for all countries:

You will see capped Fijians etc refusing call ups to re-qualify as English/Irish/Welsh so as to qualify for those nations internal quota systems regardless of whether they intend to play internationally or are desired for the national teams. This is similar to how qualified but uncapped players stay uncapped in NZ at the moment until they have decided to move overseas.

You will see movement between 6N countries, most likely from England and France to Italy but also likely other switches. Large numbers (25% maybe) of England and Wales' teams qualify for the other side, at least one will do a switch at some point.

You will see capped All Blacks play for literally every country in the 6N and likely every country in the RWC bar Argentina, South Africa and maybe someone like Georgia or Uruguay.

If it is only for "Tier 2" teams:
1) how do you define that? Japan for instance, already beat Ireland and Scotland at last RWC, but not in T1 championship.
Leads to 2) Samoa, Fiji, Tonga are all already capable of knocking off teams. What if Samoa or Tonga start with 8/9 previously All Blacks and start beating teams that are being picked on tighter eligibility rules. How is that fair?
3) Would encourage strongly for people to get capped by a T1 side first, i.e. remain uncapped if moved to Europe to try residency or take any cheap going in NZ/Aus even 7s safe in the knowledge you can re-qualify later.

Finally, you already can re-qualify for another nation using the 7s loophoole for the Olympic qualifiers. We could achieve many of the same aims by loosing the restrictions on that slightly (fewer comps needed for instance) or allowing a "prop waiver" as all other positions realistically can be included in a 7s team easily.


I agree if will open up a shit show of players playing all over the place.
You cant treat the tier's differently? Whats good for tier 2's should also be for tiers 1. Players in tier 2 countries may hold out longer now before committing to a tier 1 nation in the hope the can make one of those teams instead. Gett ready for Japan to load up again.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 19:10

Raven wrote:He is fishing, wants to make sure the PI´s are behind him as there has been some questions around who are they backing up. This (the idea of his) also isn´t something he can decide on his own.

Also, this:
sk 88 wrote:Finally, you already can re-qualify for another nation using the 7s loophoole for the Olympic qualifiers.


Beaumont is full of s***.



Probably

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 01:26

I find very interesting how Fiji is little by little edging towards being against this proposal. They would benefit from it as they have quite a few players in Tier 1 sides, but at the same time they are surplus in positions well covered and such regulations would benefit direct regional rivals like Samoa and Tonga...

Simon Raiwalui, FRU High Performance GM, is being quite outspoken in his Twitter profile recently. Of course he's got the usual disclaimer saying these are his personal views, but interesting nevertheless:
- "Eligibility rules are going to be an interesting debate once the dust has settled. Priority must always be the development of rugby and its players locally in the Pacific, does players playing for their country of birth and then switching allegiance help or hinder development?"
https://twitter.com/SimonRaiwalui/statu ... 9085811712

- "What are the benefits of a change in eligibility laws to the development of rugby in the Pacific?"
https://twitter.com/SimonRaiwalui/statu ... 6892675075

- "The majority of players wanting change are players born in other countries to parents or grandparents originating from the Pacific. They have chosen to play for their country of birth, I don't agree they should be able to "double dip" and swap allegiances..."
https://twitter.com/SimonRaiwalui/statu ... 9357339648

And this comes in addition to another comment trying to show how Fiji isn't made of the same mould as the other two PIs:
- "Fiji has a highly successful academy, WR funding expenditure which is audited independently every 2 weeks & a successful coaching/staff team that was in place 2014-19. UK armchair critics, you are more than welcome to visit and form your own opinion..."
https://twitter.com/SimonRaiwalui/statu ... 7945311233

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby vino_93 » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 06:14

That's quite obvious for me that Fiji has more to lose than to win with these new rules. There are only a few guys not representing the team, but they could lose some top players with this too...

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 10:18

"WR funding expenditure which is audited independently every 2 weeks "

Surely every 2 months or years???

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 17 Jun 2020, 15:59

Bad idea. Players understand what they are getting into when they decide to chase a future with a team. Not everything is forever. choose wisely.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 17:48

National teams should have proper identity. With this rule, countries like China, Qatar or Saudi Arabia could hire unselected players into their teams, which would be ridiculous.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 17:59

I don't understand how they could in a different way than how they can right now.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby victorsra » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 18:22

I'm honestly not against a player being able to change national teams. I think it is very authoritarian the idea a person with double citizenship (for family reasons or for a childhood abroad) must choose one. It is perfect logical people can have double-identitites, it is not all black-and-white. The time of 5 years without caps to be able to change is more than enough to secure the player is doing it by heart, by identity, not for money. 5 years is a long time for professional athletes. What must be more rigid is the residency rules for senior players, to avoid national teams becoming clubs.

And yes, who benefits more from it are Samoa and Tonga.
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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Tobar » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 19:02

I don’t like it because then players can choose to play for a Tier 1 country knowing that they have a shot later down the line in case it doesn’t work out for them.

So let’s say Player A lives in NZ but has Samoan parents. They become an All Black at 21/22 but only get a few caps. After a few years they can swap to Samoa by the time they’re 27. But in this scenario, Samoa will always be the back up choice. Because they knew that if it didn’t work out then they could just go over to the other country. And we all know the financial implications here - if they chose Samoa first then their Super Rugby contract goes bye bye. So creating this rule actually enforces the financial limitations rather than solves them.

What we need to do is focus on ways to allow players to be capped for Fiji, Samoa and Tonga but still make as much money as possible. Their only options here would be either France or England, both of which have their own restrictions and will know the player is limited in choice. This is why I was really hoping that the Japan league took off but I’m still hopeful for GRR, despite its problems.

The lack of financial options for the players is the real problem here. Creating a stand down period is a weak band aid that just keeps the issue around. Get rid of that playing restriction and I can guarantee you’ll see more players based in NZ/Aus choosing Samoa or Tonga as their first choice. Hell, it would even incentivize quality younger players to play for the national team even if it’s their only choice simply because they need to remain uncapped to be SR eligible.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby victorsra » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 22:59

Tobar wrote:So let’s say Player A lives in NZ but has Samoan parents.


But if he was born in NZ, what's the question? He is New Zealander. And if he was born in Samoa but moved to NZ as a child, it was NZ who developed him as a player (very fair to say he is a NZ rugby product). There is nothing wrong in him playing for the ABs in both cases. And nobody can say he doesn't feel kiwi, because, the truth is, he is both, New Zealander and Samoan. People can be two things.

I don't think this will make things worse. I believe it won't change much, because a team like the All Blacks has so much competition for places in the squad that very few players can be like a decade there. What will probably happen is the guy playing for the All Blacks than move to Europe and play for Samoa. The real impact is that we'll see Europe-based (or Japan-based, or MLR-based) ex All Blacks playing for Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. That's it. The key factor will be their wish to play European/Japanese club rugby. It will be a headache basicaly for European clubs that will have to deal with the All Blacks they brought wanting to keep playing for a national team.
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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Tobar » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 23:31

victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:So let’s say Player A lives in NZ but has Samoan parents.


But if he was born in NZ, what's the question? He is New Zealander. And if he was born in Samoa but moved to NZ as a child, it was NZ who developed him as a player (very fair to say he is a NZ rugby product). There is nothing wrong in him playing for the ABs in both cases. And nobody can say he doesn't feel kiwi, because, the truth is, he is both, New Zealander and Samoan. People can be two things.


Sorry if I didn’t make it clear, there’s no issue with playing for either country. The issue is playing for both countries.

The real impact is that we'll see Europe-based (or Japan-based, or MLR-based) ex All Blacks playing for Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. That's it.


That’s exactly my issue! I don’t care much about NZ losing out on players, I care about Samoa/Tonga. And this is the real issue we will see - if ABs want to go up to Europe and make more money and know they will be capped by PIs then they will do that and push out local players. I didn’t even really think about that fact but this makes me think that far more players will do this, even with the 5 year stand down.

You didn’t address my main point that this is all a symptom of the fact that there are no legit options near the PIs to play professionally if they are capped. Fixing this would solve a lot of the issues that people are trying to fix with this stand down crap.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 23:39

I agree. This won't change much. I don't really like it but most of the Samoa team is New Zealanders anyway. I don't think many New Zealanders with Samoan parents would turn down playing for the All Blacks. That is the dream of any New Zealand rugby player.

I think now that residency has been extended to 5 years the qualification rules are about right. I personally do not consider anyone to be English if they don't have an English accent. A New Zealander with an English parent or grandparent is not an Englishman, but the rules have to be equitable, and I do think that New Zealanders with Samoan parents or grandparents are considered to be Samoan in Samoan society and law.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 18 Jun 2020, 23:52

Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:So let’s say Player A lives in NZ but has Samoan parents.


But if he was born in NZ, what's the question? He is New Zealander. And if he was born in Samoa but moved to NZ as a child, it was NZ who developed him as a player (very fair to say he is a NZ rugby product). There is nothing wrong in him playing for the ABs in both cases. And nobody can say he doesn't feel kiwi, because, the truth is, he is both, New Zealander and Samoan. People can be two things.


Sorry if I didn’t make it clear, there’s no issue with playing for either country. The issue is playing for both countries.

The real impact is that we'll see Europe-based (or Japan-based, or MLR-based) ex All Blacks playing for Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. That's it.


That’s exactly my issue! I don’t care much about NZ losing out on players, I care about Samoa/Tonga. And this is the real issue we will see - if ABs want to go up to Europe and make more money and know they will be capped by PIs then they will do that and push out local players. I didn’t even really think about that fact but this makes me think that far more players will do this, even with the 5 year stand down.

You didn’t address my main point that this is all a symptom of the fact that there are no legit options near the PIs to play professionally if they are capped. Fixing this would solve a lot of the issues that people are trying to fix with this stand down crap.


There's not really a solution to that. Fiji maybe potentially can have a professional team playing in Super Rugby or GRR (we will see what the post Covid 19 world looks like), but Samoa and Tonga are too small/poor/remote/corrupt to have professional rugby teams. And why would a rugby player from New Zealand want to spend their playing career living in Tonga or Samoa, earning a basic salary and playing for a mediocre team, when they could make their fortune in the south of France for 10 years? If they did then want to move to the land of their ancestors they could do it as a very wealthy man, and set up businesses that help the local economy.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby victorsra » Fri, 19 Jun 2020, 02:31

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Tobar wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Tobar wrote:So let’s say Player A lives in NZ but has Samoan parents.


But if he was born in NZ, what's the question? He is New Zealander. And if he was born in Samoa but moved to NZ as a child, it was NZ who developed him as a player (very fair to say he is a NZ rugby product). There is nothing wrong in him playing for the ABs in both cases. And nobody can say he doesn't feel kiwi, because, the truth is, he is both, New Zealander and Samoan. People can be two things.


Sorry if I didn’t make it clear, there’s no issue with playing for either country. The issue is playing for both countries.

The real impact is that we'll see Europe-based (or Japan-based, or MLR-based) ex All Blacks playing for Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. That's it.


That’s exactly my issue! I don’t care much about NZ losing out on players, I care about Samoa/Tonga. And this is the real issue we will see - if ABs want to go up to Europe and make more money and know they will be capped by PIs then they will do that and push out local players. I didn’t even really think about that fact but this makes me think that far more players will do this, even with the 5 year stand down.

You didn’t address my main point that this is all a symptom of the fact that there are no legit options near the PIs to play professionally if they are capped. Fixing this would solve a lot of the issues that people are trying to fix with this stand down crap.


There's not really a solution to that. Fiji maybe potentially can have a professional team playing in Super Rugby or GRR (we will see what the post Covid 19 world looks like), but Samoa and Tonga are too small/poor/remote/corrupt to have professional rugby teams. And why would a rugby player from New Zealand want to spend their playing career living in Tonga or Samoa, earning a basic salary and playing for a mediocre team, when they could make their fortune in the south of France for 10 years? If they did then want to move to the land of their ancestors they could do it as a very wealthy man, and set up businesses that help the local economy.


Tobar, you mean Tongans and Samoans that grew up in Tonga and Samoa will loose space to Kiwi-Samoans and Kiwi-Tongans? They already do, but I don't think it is a bad thing for Samoa and Tonga. Their national teams doing well mean more and more opportunities for their players in Europe/Japan/SR, as the "product Polynesian player" keeps getting value. Imagine if they are world champions! What matters for Samoa and Tonga is their nationals receiving more and more professional opportunities in general.

And, as Chester said, Samoa and Tonga know their economies can't provide professionalism for their players. Exporting players is an essencial part of their economies. Hundreds of Samoan and Tongan families almost depend on money sent home by rugby players. It is not a question of wanting to have professional rugby. It is a matter of exporting rugby players being realy important for their economies. In fact, that's why Samoans and Tongans WANT their players play for All Blacks or Wallabies, because those countries pay more and they want that money for their families. And that's exactly why they want the rule change for eligibility. Don't forget they are tiny poor countries.

Any professional franchise based in Samoa (like the GRR one) is just one better opportunity to offer a first step into professionalism for their players. It is never intended to be the end place of their careers. It is just to offer more visibility and a professional start. I don't think they are planing a Jaguares-like project Not even Fiji. They talk about a Super Rugby team, yes, but this is much more a political project. For those countries, the fair and crucial thing is to have their national teams able to play in front of their fans. And that's it.
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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 03:59

victorsra wrote:
Tobar, you mean Tongans and Samoans that grew up in Tonga and Samoa will loose space to Kiwi-Samoans and Kiwi-Tongans? They already do, but I don't think it is a bad thing for Samoa and Tonga. Their national teams doing well mean more and more opportunities for their players in Europe/Japan/SR, as the "product Polynesian player" keeps getting value. Imagine if they are world champions! What matters for Samoa and Tonga is their nationals receiving more and more professional opportunities in general.


Importing Kiwis or Aussies does nothing to actually help their unions or their game.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 07:29

TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Tobar, you mean Tongans and Samoans that grew up in Tonga and Samoa will loose space to Kiwi-Samoans and Kiwi-Tongans? They already do, but I don't think it is a bad thing for Samoa and Tonga. Their national teams doing well mean more and more opportunities for their players in Europe/Japan/SR, as the "product Polynesian player" keeps getting value. Imagine if they are world champions! What matters for Samoa and Tonga is their nationals receiving more and more professional opportunities in general.


Importing Kiwis or Aussies does nothing to actually help their unions or their game.


That is their choice to select heritage players. If they didn't they wouldn't be playing in world cups. They would just be playing in regional tournaments. I watched the Pacific Challenge and I didn't see any standout talent from Tonga A or Samoa A. Junior Japan and Fijian Warriors were both excellent. The Samoa and Tonga unions receive lots of support from World Rugby. That they don't convert this into producing high quality players is their own failings.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby 4N » Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 15:22

Malaki Fekitoa, Shannon Frizzell, Vaea Fifita, Amanaki Mafi, Taniela Tupou, Sitaleki and Lopeti Timani were all born and raised in Tonga. They definitely produce good players, they just have trouble retaining them.

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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby victorsra » Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 15:32

Samoa and Tonga are thinking as countries (the countries they are). Samoans and Tongans living in Australia/NZ send money back home for the families that stayed. They are important for those countries even living abroad. And if Tonga and Samoa have good results, local players have more market value, more demand, European clubs can build there academies, their schoolboys can receive more scholarships from NZ, Australia, Japan....

That's why for their national team what matters is good performances in global stage. They don't care if those players play for other national teams because it is more money for those families. But they want to eventualy have those players, to achieve great international results as well.

People here are not thinking in the place of 100k/200k-people poor countries. What matters is giving $ opportunities for more people. That's all. It is much more important to have players abroad than at home. What they want is to be able to call up their best national team (and sometimes play at home).
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 15:40, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby 4N » Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 15:38

Good interview with Apollo Perelini from a few weeks back. He discusses eligibility from 9:20-17:10. One of the things he brings up is the recent success of the Tonga rugby league team and how it has been uplifting for Tongans everywhere, in Tonga and abroad. The host makes some good informed comments too, particularly about national identity.


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Re: Beaumont wants to introduce a stand down period

Postby victorsra » Sat, 20 Jun 2020, 15:46

Oh, and another very important aspect: they need good results as national teams to become global brands. Samoa or Tonga economies can't offer real sponsorship, real partners. The only way to have bigger revenues is to be global brands that everyone wants to watch. To become the "2nd team" of rugby fans. That's another main reason they need players with heritage. Put everything together and that makes a lot of sense.

When we say Samoa and Tonga economies make them not interesting for competitions, this is true now. But what if they become real RWC title contenders? If they can be a fraction of what the All Blacks are, they leave their condition of tiny poor markets to become interesting global products. This is a long term goal. Not realistic now, but they need to start somewhere. This is something an obscure GRR franchise won't deliver, but the national teams can if they have access to be better regular competitions.
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