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World Rugby politics

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Thomas » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 15:25

He was never elected he was appointed to Rugby Americas same as the present president of Sudamerica Rugby, the conflict is his outside rugby interests which conflicted with MLR and is well document and his exclusive contract with ESPN Argentina.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 15:37

The document doesn't say Pichot should have won, or that he was without conflicts. It just lists the present conflicts as they are.

Agree I've always used the analogy that Finland and NZ should not have equal voting power, but Fiji and NZ should. Similarly I think NZ votes = Irish votes = Samoan votes = Spanish votes ... its here I think it breaks down.

I think a structure of (3?/)2/1 votes makes a lot of sense, but the criteria used at present it ridiculous. Another option would be to use a UN style permanent and temporary style for the council. NZ, SA, England and France could be permanent members, with the others elected every couple of years, potentially with some guaranteed spots on rotation for Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, Australia, Argentina.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Canalina » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 17:11

victorsra wrote:
So I wondered: what about Pichot? He was World Rugby vice-president, but also Rugby Americas president, very influencing counselor of the Sud America Rugby president, counselor of the Major League, counselor of SANZAAR, involved in the Argentina bid to the RWC. He was the incarnation of the conflict of interests and he was WR vice president until the 2020 election, but PRPW never cites him.


Sorry, but the Rugby Americas, Sudamerica Rugby and SANZAAR posts are not conflict of interests and absolutely needed. There is no conflict as he is basicaly a Argentina representative representing Argentina where Argentina is involved. And the WR vice president must be a Council member, which mean he was elected as Argentina's representative. You can't run as independent. So, how is this conflict? Maybe you can question only MLR's position. Pichot's conflicts are only releated to business outside rugby.

They (PRPW) explain in the document that they want that an independent WR vice-president, because the vice-president is a potential president (he takes the role of president when the titular one has not the possibility) and a president must be independent, id est with no roles in other federations. Pichot was bounded with many austral and american rugby organizations and he was at the same time World Rugby vice-president, so I was a bit surprised that they mention Laporte as example of conflict of interests (Laporte is FFR president and WR vice-president) and not or not also Pichot

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Canalina » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 17:19

sk 88 wrote:The document doesn't say Pichot should have won, or that he was without conflicts. It just lists the present conflicts as they are.

Agree I've always used the analogy that Finland and NZ should not have equal voting power, but Fiji and NZ should. Similarly I think NZ votes = Irish votes = Samoan votes = Spanish votes ... its here I think it breaks down.

I think a structure of (3?/)2/1 votes makes a lot of sense, but the criteria used at present it ridiculous. Another option would be to use a UN style permanent and temporary style for the council. NZ, SA, England and France could be permanent members, with the others elected every couple of years, potentially with some guaranteed spots on rotation for Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, Australia, Argentina.

I can't understand why the current criteria are ridiculous. I think that or we have a perfectly democratic system (and in such case I think that all the nations, not only the member ones, should have their right of vote, because a system where just the member nations vote and decide who deserves the membership is not a democracy, it's more an oligarchy) or we have a meritocratic system. The meritocratic World Rugby electoral system is not bad to me; probably perfectible, but not ridiculous

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 17:34

Canalina wrote:
victorsra wrote:
So I wondered: what about Pichot? He was World Rugby vice-president, but also Rugby Americas president, very influencing counselor of the Sud America Rugby president, counselor of the Major League, counselor of SANZAAR, involved in the Argentina bid to the RWC. He was the incarnation of the conflict of interests and he was WR vice president until the 2020 election, but PRPW never cites him.


Sorry, but the Rugby Americas, Sudamerica Rugby and SANZAAR posts are not conflict of interests and absolutely needed. There is no conflict as he is basicaly a Argentina representative representing Argentina where Argentina is involved. And the WR vice president must be a Council member, which mean he was elected as Argentina's representative. You can't run as independent. So, how is this conflict? Maybe you can question only MLR's position. Pichot's conflicts are only releated to business outside rugby.

They (PRPW) explain in the document that they want that an independent WR vice-president, because the vice-president is a potential president (he takes the role of president when the titular one has not the possibility) and a president must be independent, id est with no roles in other federations. Pichot was bounded with many austral and american rugby organizations and he was at the same time World Rugby vice-president, so I was a bit surprised that they mention Laporte as example of conflict of interests (Laporte is FFR president and WR vice-president) and not or not also Pichot

Yes, but Píchot couldn't be vice president without being Argentina's representative. We can question it should be independent, but this isn't Pichot's (or Laporte's) fault. If they want changes, they need to follow the system. However, you are right, they could have mentioned Pichot, but Pichot said he wanted changes in the system, while Laporte ran supporting Beaumont's reelection. The question here is: was Pichot wanting exactly this change and Beaumont isn't? If so, they are right to mention Laporte and not Pichot.
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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Sat, 25 Jul 2020, 17:38

Canalina wrote:
sk 88 wrote:The document doesn't say Pichot should have won, or that he was without conflicts. It just lists the present conflicts as they are.

Agree I've always used the analogy that Finland and NZ should not have equal voting power, but Fiji and NZ should. Similarly I think NZ votes = Irish votes = Samoan votes = Spanish votes ... its here I think it breaks down.

I think a structure of (3?/)2/1 votes makes a lot of sense, but the criteria used at present it ridiculous. Another option would be to use a UN style permanent and temporary style for the council. NZ, SA, England and France could be permanent members, with the others elected every couple of years, potentially with some guaranteed spots on rotation for Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Italy, Australia, Argentina.

I can't understand why the current criteria are ridiculous. I think that or we have a perfectly democratic system (and in such case I think that all the nations, not only the member ones, should have their right of vote, because a system where just the member nations vote and decide who deserves the membership is not a democracy, it's more an oligarchy) or we have a meritocratic system. The meritocratic World Rugby electoral system is not bad to me; probably perfectible, but not ridiculous

It isn't democratic, Canalina, most countries don't vote and the T1s have the majority. T1s can't lose their votes on a merit basis. You saw the bye-law, they have 2 votes as "founders" (only 1 by merit).

The system doesn't give T3s indirect votes through the continental unions either, because there is no rule of how continental unions should determine their votes. It would be indirect vote if the continents votes were determined by regional democratic vote. It isn't. It should be in the bye-law.

If the majority of countries don't vote not even inderectly, it isn't democractic or meritocratic. It would be democratic and meritocratic only if everybody voted, at least indirectly and with different weights. But not ZERO weight. Which is absolutely ridiculous and a cartel.
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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Immenso » Sun, 26 Jul 2020, 07:37

Canalina wrote:It's a lazy question because I could try inform by myself, but do someone of you know why there's a military dictatorship in the Fiji? I mean, they are just about 800K inhabitants, if I recall correctly, they are seen as a sort of Paradise islands, they should not be very poor thanks to Commonwealth and tourism, they are part of a rich and democratic union as Commonwealth... you don't associate all that to a military dictatorship. I suspect that maybe it could be the result of some violent tension between different tribes or/and different islands.
Maybe the national "warrior spirit" viewable in rugby push them to not love so much the democracy?


The first coup, in 1987, the native Fijians had become ethnic minority, and indian dominated party won the 1987 election.

That first coup, has created instability, and there have been several coups since.

Ethnic Indian migration out of Fiji since 87, mostly to Australia a d NZ. Indian population gone from 52% to 38%.

I think current Baininarama military govt seen as reasonably positive by ethnic Indians. It was a counter-coup to a political win by a party linked to a former failed coup by Speight - which was anti-Indian, and hell bent on some political vendettas.

Also. Fiji army is very outsized compared to its population. Fiji permanently have 2 battalions on UN service. One in Sinai and 1 in Golan. Source of foreign income for the country. Many Fijian soldiers move through Fijian army to better paying positions in e.g. British Army . So it is large and prominent in Fiji society and now for last 30 years in politics.

Other south Pacific countries have tiny militaries.

^^ That is just roughly from my memory , may have some details being on the Speight/Baininarama dynamics. Havent looked it up.
Last edited by Immenso on Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 05:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Canalina » Sun, 26 Jul 2020, 08:18

Thanks. I don't know if all this Pacific Players Welfare is saying is right but they seem pushing in the right direction asking for more clearness in these islands rugby administration

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Tobar » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 02:29

What’s this about Pichot serving as counselor to Major League Rugby? Do you mean his board position on USA Rugby?

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 06:37

victorsra wrote:
"
"create a 1 Member = 1 Vote system for the Council" is naive. It sounds cool and democratic, but is isn't in a sport where most countries have only a handful of clubs. We have discussed this before. It must be a open system, with everybody participating more, but not 1 country 1 vote. This also might damage women participation in the Council.


I concur. But there must be other ways to differentiate. Votes based on numbers of active clubs/leagues could be one way - if attached to a must of publishing statistics of all matches played it might even enhanced visibility of the sport in smaller nations. In the age of internet claims like this are easy to prove true or false.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 09:17, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby Canalina » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 08:31

Tobar wrote:What’s this about Pichot serving as counselor to Major League Rugby? Do you mean his board position on USA Rugby?

I don't know, I've read something about in this forum... But if I write that he was member of USA Rugby someone promptly answers "he never was! He was just counseling the MLR"; and if I write that he was MLR counselor you answer that he was just a USA Rugby board member...
I don't want to attack at every cost Pichot, it's just that I don't like the "double standards". If an action is wrong, it's wrong whoever commits it. If Laporte having both the vice-presidency of WR and the presidency of FFR is in a conflict of interests, it was (moreover) a conflict also the one of Pichot. If it's a scandal that WR has few women in its ExCo, it's a scandal too that Oceania Rugby and Sudamerica Rugby and UAR and I don't know how many other rugby boards have even less women in their ExCo

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 27 Jul 2020, 09:36

RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:
"
"create a 1 Member = 1 Vote system for the Council" is naive. It sounds cool and democratic, but is isn't in a sport where most countries have only a handful of clubs. We have discussed this before. It must be a open system, with everybody participating more, but not 1 country 1 vote. This also might damage women participation in the Council.


I concur. But there must be other ways to differentiate. Votes based on numbers of active clubs/leagues could be one way - if attached to a must of publishing statistics of all matches played it might even enhanced visibility of the sport in smaller nations. In the age of internet claims like this are easy to prove true or false.


Agree, there should be one vote for genuinely playing the game widely. Then another for being part of the professional set up, even if that is exporting players for others like Fiji, Samoa, Tonga. Then I could see a merit based one, but the current rules solely rewards Men's XVs when the council also governs 7s and both Women's XVs and 7s. Perhaps a vote for achieving something in any single one category.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 28 Jul 2020, 00:28

Canalina wrote:
Tobar wrote:What’s this about Pichot serving as counselor to Major League Rugby? Do you mean his board position on USA Rugby?

I don't know, I've read something about in this forum... But if I write that he was member of USA Rugby someone promptly answers "he never was! He was just counseling the MLR"; and if I write that he was MLR counselor you answer that he was just a USA Rugby board member...
I don't want to attack at every cost Pichot, it's just that I don't like the "double standards". If an action is wrong, it's wrong whoever commits it. If Laporte having both the vice-presidency of WR and the presidency of FFR is in a conflict of interests, it was (moreover) a conflict also the one of Pichot. If it's a scandal that WR has few women in its ExCo, it's a scandal too that Oceania Rugby and Sudamerica Rugby and UAR and I don't know how many other rugby boards have even less women in their ExCo


Pichot was a member of the USA Rugby Board. That is very true, which was a part of the oversight agreement with World Rugby for the loan the paid for the overruns of Rugby World Cup 7s. He was never on the MLR Board. Did he attend some of their board meetings? That I have no idea. (But wouldn't be unusual) But the only way to be on MLR's board of Governors is to be a team owner and he is not a team owner. No one has refuted that he was on the board of USAR, because that would be dumb since he was. He left the board in December.

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Re: World Rugby politics

Postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Jul 2020, 17:39

Rizzi replaces Pichot as one of Argentina's representative in the WR Council https://espndeportes.espn.com/rugby/not ... orld-rugby
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